Conditions to be denied entry?

[Brunolem]

I have recently seen a few threads about people being denied entry despite having visas.

 

This seems a little strange and I was wondering if this could happen to anyone, or if specific conditions have to be met.

 

For example, can someone with a non-O visa (family) also run into the same kind of trouble, or does it only concern people with tourist visas?

 

Are younger people (below 50) more susceptible of thorough inquiries than older ones?

 

Anything else that is important to know to avoid that fate?

[JackThompson]

 

This primarily happens at Bangkok Airports, and the Poipet-Aranyaprathet border crossing.  Other airports (Krabi, Phuket) also have "unfriendly" reputations, though with fewer recent reports - and most of those I recall being Visa-Exempt cases.

 

If entering at the bad-locations, one may find themselves subjected to "unpublished rules" regarding "time in country" or "too many entries."  There is nothing in the laws / rules regarding Tourist Visa entries that cover this, so no way to know where "the line" is.  Because the IOs cannot use the non-published rule as the reason for denial (there are specific reasons only allowed by Thai law), they use a different, often unrelated, reason for the rejection-stamp.

 

Age:

Many rejection/interrogation include older people, including "snowbirds" who stay less than 1/2 a year - so while it may be a factor, it is not the only factor. 

 

Money:

Many rejection/interrogation reports include those traveling widely and often to more expensive destinations, so the IOs can see they have plenty of money to spend.

 

Non-O marriage-based Visas:

So far, only the Poipet/Aranyaprathet border has been reported to be giving these people a hard-time.  I have one of these, but would never try to fly in, because I prefer entering at civilized locations with a history of following published laws/rules. 

 

How To Avoid?

 

Always have 20K Baht worth of cash and/or travelers checks (can be another currency).  This is insanely anachronistic in a world of electronic-banking, but it is a published rule.

 

Point of Entry is KEY:

Enter via land-borders that follow only the published rules (all but Poipet).  Forget the Bangkok airports exist - they might as well be in some hell-hole country where laws don't matter, from my perspective. 

 

Why risk entering at a location known for denying people for unpublished reasons, to further some unknown agenda (China?, agent-money?, elite-visa sales?, who knows!), which damages the country's reputation, and literally robs their own citizens of jobs funded by the foreign-sourced incomes being turned-away?

 

Consider, also, that even if denied at a land-border, you can just walk back where you came from - no "last minute" overpriced ticket going where you do not want to go, being put in detention, etc.  If that happens (unlikely), report your experience here to warn others and seek advice, then try a different entry-point.

 

Bring along anything else you have which could be used to prove you have money/income (so don't need to work illegally) and where you live in Thailand.  I always carried a copy of my condo-lease, plus bank-books showing foreign-transfers in, plus some docs from my business in the USA (where my taxes are paid).  I never needed any of this, because I didn't try to run the airport-gauntlets - but carried it every time anyway. 

 

One useful item was a business-card from my condo, so the IO could copy this into his computer, instead of a hen-scratch partial-address in the tiny TM-6 form (now, even smaller).  They really seem to appreciate this - often get a pleasant response.

[Brunolem]

45 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

 

This primarily happens at Bangkok Airports, and the Poipet-Aranyaprathet border crossing.  

Thank you for this extensive reply.

 

Obviously, it is difficult, to avoid Bangkok airports when arriving from Europe or America.

Edited November 23, 2018 by Brunolem

[JackThompson]

5 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

Thank you for this extensive reply.

 

Obviously, it is difficult, to avoid Bangkok airports when arriving from Europe or America.

The best workaround from those locations would be a flight to KL or Penang, then enter by Train at Pedang Besar, then fly onward domestic from Hat Yai airport.  This is what I would do (and have done in the past).

 

Vientiane is even closer to the border, and Udon Thanni is a close airport on the Thai side for an ongoing flight - but flights are less-common and/or more expensive. 

 

Other destination airports in neighboring countries are farther away from the Thai border and not connected by quality transport.

Edited November 23, 2018 by JackThompson

[amexpat]

19 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

Thank you for this extensive reply.

 

And no thanks for reposting the whole dang extensive thing.  

 

Easy to avoid while getting your message across. Thank you. 

[Brunolem]

6 minutes ago, amexpat said:

And no thanks for reposting the whole dang extensive thing.  

 

Easy to avoid while getting your message across. Thank you. 

Done!

[ukrules]

2 hours ago, JackThompson said:

Point of Entry is KEY:

Enter via land-borders that follow only the published rules (all but Poipet).  Forget the Bangkok airports exist - they might as well be in some hell-hole country where laws don't matter, from my perspective. 

 

This is the big problem right here.

 

Tourists can no longer rely on being admitted to their destination at the main international airports.

 

[Scottjouro]

"I have recently seen a few threads about people being denied entry despite having visas.

 

This seems a little strange and I was wondering if this could happen to anyone, or if specific conditions have to be met"

 

Having a visa in hand does not give you the right of entry to a country, only an IO can permit you to enter,

 

a Visa is an " invitation" only

 

If the IO (this is for every country in the world BTW) believes you are entering the country for purposes other than what is on your visa or your stated purpose of stay you can be denied entry visa or not 

[elviajero]

2 hours ago, ukrules said:

This is the big problem right here.

 

Tourists can no longer rely on being admitted to their destination at the main international airports.

That’s not true. Genuine/typical tourists do not have any more risk of being denied entry now than anytime in the past.

[moe666]

4 hours ago, Brunolem said:

Thank you for this extensive reply.

 

Obviously, it is difficult, to avoid Bangkok airports when arriving from Europe or America.

If some one is a real tourist with few entry stamps you should have no problem entering at any airport. I have a friend who comes every years with a tourist visa he stays for 6 weeks back home for a year never a problem. No he doesn't get a new passport every year

[Scottjouro]

2 minutes ago, moe666 said:

If some one is a real tourist with few entry stamps you should have no problem entering at any airport. I have a friend who comes every years with a tourist visa he stays for 6 weeks back home for a year never a problem. No he doesn't get a new passport every year

This is the root of all this..as stated above, i suspect few if any true and legitimate tourists have ever been denied entry into Thailand

 

I would suggest the so called "tourists" being denied entry are working illegally in Thailand and blagging the system

 

 

 

[MekkOne]

non O multi based on marriage entered BKK airport on 24th September after 7 years without leaving the country, no question asked by IO, stamp - smile - done (all communication in fluent Thai)

[JackThompson]

37 minutes ago, moe666 said:

If some one is a real tourist with few entry stamps you should have no problem entering at any airport. I have a friend who comes every years with a tourist visa he stays for 6 weeks back home for a year never a problem. No he doesn't get a new passport every year

The definition of "real, legitimate tourist" in Thailand is:

 - has 20K Baht in cash to show

 - has enough money accessible to afford to live here during their next permitted-stay

 - is not working illegally

 

There is nothing in the law or relevant Police Orders about "Limited to X days per 2 years," as quoted to the OP of another thread.  IOs must cite a specific reason to deny-entry - they cannot just "decide" a person "isn't a tourist." They must show that the visitor is too-poor and/or working-illegally.

 

31 minutes ago, Scottjouro said:

I would suggest the so called "tourists" being denied entry are working illegally in Thailand and blagging the system

 

Few from the Western world would come here to work illegally for a fraction of what they could earn legally elsewhere.  This is not like those coming to Western countries - where wages are higher than their nations of origin. 

 

Those few that do work illegally should be easily found and rounded-up, if this was a priority.  To deter such activity, catch violators red-handed, put on trial publicly, sentence to jail, then deport and ban for life.  A show-trial, every now and then, would keep others from attempting to do the same.

Edited November 23, 2018 by JackThompson

[Scottjouro]

31 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

The definition of "real, legitimate tourist" in Thailand is:

 - has 20K Baht in cash to show

 - has enough money accessible to afford to live here during their next permitted-stay

 - is not working illegally

 

There is nothing in the law or relevant Police Orders about "Limited to X days per 2 years," as quoted to the OP of another thread.  IOs must cite a specific reason to deny-entry - they cannot just "decide" a person "isn't a tourist." They must show that the visitor is too-poor and/or working-illegally.

 

 

Few from the Western world would come here to work illegally for a fraction of what they could earn legally elsewhere.  This is not like those coming to Western countries - where wages are higher than their nations of origin. 

 

Those few that do work illegally should be easily found and rounded-up, if this was a priority.  To deter such activity, catch violators red-handed, put on trial publicly, sentence to jail, then deport and ban for life.  A show-trial, every now and then, would keep others from attempting to do the same.

Funny your all knowing first statement..LOL...but rubbish  baseless generalisations

 

i came to work in Thailand many years ago on an after tax uplift of around 30% on my farangland salary..so shows how much you know, for professions that are needed in Thailand, significantly higher salaries than that  of Western countries are availible in Thailand to farangs

[JackThompson]

29 minutes ago, Scottjouro said:

Funny your all knowing first statement..LOL...but rubbish  baseless generalisations

Not generalizations at all - based exactly on the reasons for denial permitted by law.  But the IOs in the Bangkok airports apparently agree that the laws are "rubbish" and to be "worked around" to achieve their own superior agenda. 

 

Quote

i came to work in Thailand many years ago on an after tax uplift of around 30% on my farangland salary..so shows how much you know, for professions that are needed in Thailand, significantly higher salaries than that  of Western countries are availible in Thailand to farangs

I would assume that your job, being higher-paying, included the necessary paperwork for a Non-B Visa and Work Permit?  I was speaking about the low-probability of Westerners working "under the table" jobs illegally, while staying in Thailand on Tourist entries. 

Edited November 23, 2018 by JackThompson

[Briggsy]

One further document that has not been specifically mentioned in this thread yet is of course :-

 

An air ticket out

 

If the tourist is holding a Tourist Visa, then the IO is looking for a ticket out no more than 60 days hence. (That is my experience. Mine was for 84 days hence. The IO was over the moon and gleefully packaged me off to the supervisor. I got stamped in much to her chagrin.)

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, Briggsy said:

One further document that has not been specifically mentioned in this thread yet is of course :-

 

An air ticket out

 

If the tourist is holding a Tourist Visa, then the IO is looking for a ticket out no more than 60 days hence. (That is my experience. Mine was for 84 days hence. The IO was over the moon and gleefully packaged me off to the supervisor. I got stamped in much to her chagrin.)

I am not surprised at your report, but this is not in the published requirements for entry with a Tourist Visa.  It is required only for entry (within 30-days) for a Visa-Exempt entry, which is issued and regulated by immigration.  It is up to the MFA to decide what is required to get a Tourist Visa.  Once you have satisfied the MFA, rejection by immigration must be based on specific, listed criteria.  "Must hold an outgoing ticket within 60 days" is not on that list. 

 

If the Bangkok airports are adding this requirement to their list of unpublished-rules, all airlines need to begin enforcing this pre-boarding, immediately, so that those planning to leave by land or a later-purchased ticket can choose another country to land in.

[elviajero]

7 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

I am not surprised at your report, but this is not in the published requirements for entry with a Tourist Visa. 

Yes it is. Every tourist is expected to have an onward ticket. It is a requirement listed on the MFA website to get a Tourist Visa, and many embassies/consulates insist on seeing a confirmed booking before issuing a visa.

 

 

[Huat]

I am holding a non-o marriage visa n I will be going back on 1st Feb n back on 24th feb
Do I need to carry 20k baht?I have been going out of Thailand n back n each time the immigration didn't ask me for 20k.


Sent from my SM-G955F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[onera1961]

34 minutes ago, Huat said:

I am holding a non-o marriage visa n I will be going back on 1st Feb n back on 24th feb
Do I need to carry 20k baht?I have been going out of Thailand n back n each time the immigration didn't ask me for 20k

I plan to carry 20K going forward.

I have an O-A visa from the US and this year I entered/exited 9 times on that visa. One my 10th entry, the IO asked me what are you doing in Thailand. I said I am on a long-stay retirement. He than told me "but you don't stay in Thailand" I was almost going to tell him "Why the hell I'm going to stay in a police state for more than a few weeks" But I calmed myself down, took a deep breadth and told him I am retired and making few trips to other countries. I was coming from Portugal with a US passport. He then asked me something in Thai. I said sorry I don't understand Thai. He asked me why? I said sorry I did not have time to learn Thai and may be I will enroll in a Thai language school next time (I already had an ED visa in my passport in 2013). He than stamped me one year and let me in.

 

In the same trip, I was going to Portugal with a break in Zurich for few days. The Zurich IO officer started asking me questions and she wanted to see my boarding pass to Zurich. Asked me what do you do in Thailand as she scanned my passports and saw multiple entry/exit stamps of Thailand.

I think no body is scrutiny free if making multiple trips in/out of Thailand. 

Edited November 23, 2018 by onera1961

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, elviajero said:

Yes it is. Every tourist is expected to have an onward ticket. It is a requirement listed on the MFA website to get a Tourist Visa, and many embassies/consulates insist on seeing a confirmed booking before issuing a visa.

Only some consulates do (their call) and then the applicant receives their tourist visa.  It has never been required to board the plane, because it is was never needed to show upon entry (with a Visa).  If immigration at the airports wishes to re-verify MFA's work, imposing rules which some consulates elect not to, then this needs to be required to board, along with any other unpublished-rules which immigration decides to enforce at some airports. 

 

Glad to hear the report that Thailand-Air is making sure their customers leaving from Vientiane have the 20K baht before boarding, now.  That's a good start - but the list is getting longer.  They may need to tell customers to show up an extra hour early, just to go through the latest checklist/reports and make the necessary accommodations.

[elviajero]

2 hours ago, Huat said:

I am holding a non-o marriage visa n I will be going back on 1st Feb n back on 24th feb
Do I need to carry 20k baht?I have been going out of Thailand n back n each time the immigration didn't ask me for 20k.


Sent from my SM-G955F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

By your own experience the answer is no. It is not something that is generally enforced for non-immigrant visa holders.

[jacko45k]

6 hours ago, elviajero said:

Yes it is. Every tourist is expected to have an onward ticket. It is a requirement listed on the MFA website to get a Tourist Visa, and many embassies/consulates insist on seeing a confirmed booking before issuing a visa.

 

 

A quick check of the requirements for a Tourist visa on the London Thai Embassy website did not confirm this. No ticket mentioned for a single, confirmed air-ticket TO Thailand for a multiple. A tourist visa was previously more attractive to backpackers due to longer permissions and no need of outward flight proof. 

Ambiguity is the problem here!

[onera1961]

5 hours ago, elviajero said:

By your own experience the answer is no. It is not something that is generally enforced for non-immigrant visa holders.

Somewhere I read that it was required for other Non- visas. I have an O-A. I also never carried 20K in my hundreds of visits using visa exempt, SETV, reentry permit, ED visa, and O-A visa since 2014. This year on an O-A, I have entered/exit 10 times and never been asked for money, though last time IO  questioned me what I am doing in Thailand. Now, I try to keep at least 100K in my Bangkok book and also keep it updated periodically.

These are the dark days for people who like to visit Thailand frequently and I will keep 20K for the next time.  

[BritTim]

8 hours ago, elviajero said:

Yes it is. Every tourist is expected to have an onward ticket. It is a requirement listed on the MFA website to get a Tourist Visa, and many embassies/consulates insist on seeing a confirmed booking before issuing a visa.

Once again, we have the discussion about whether a visa and a permission to stay are the same thing with the same requirements. It is my view that the MFA does not make rules to be followed by the Immigration Bureau, and the Immigration Bureau does not make rules to be followed by consulates. Thus, I do not believe the MFA website is a reliable source of information about the instructions given to immigration officials. I can appreciate why, under certain circumstances, immigration officials might ask a tourist visa holder how long they plan to stay, and whether they have an onward ticket. However, I have read nothing to suggest that lack of an onward flight ticket is a valid reason under Section 12 of the Immigration Act for denying a visa holder entry to Thailand.

[jackdd]

9 hours ago, elviajero said:

Yes it is. Every tourist is expected to have an onward ticket. It is a requirement listed on the MFA website to get a Tourist Visa, and many embassies/consulates insist on seeing a confirmed booking before issuing a visa. 

And according to the Thai version of the immigration website it is a general requirement to show a ticket out of Thailand when applying for a visa, Section 5 of https://www.immigration.go.th/content/visa (http://www.consular.go.th/main/th/services/1287/19758-ข้อมูลทั่วไป.html)

So following your logic of saying requirements for visas are a must have and using the same logic with this source, when entering the kingdom a non-immigrant visa holder could be asked for an outward ticket within 90 days when he arrives in Thailand, and if he can't present it he can be denied entry?

Edited November 24, 2018 by jackdd

[Don Chance]

Which airlines offer 100% refund on tickets if canceled?

 

[onera1961]

1 minute ago, Don Chance said:

Which airlines offer 100% refund on tickets if canceled?

I don't think budget airlines to neighboring countries will offer such a deal. May be business class in Thai Airlines.

[jackdd]

5 minutes ago, Don Chance said:

Which airlines offer 100% refund on tickets if canceled?

 

I think every airline has such tickets

[Don Chance]

Air Indigo has a flex option for an extra 1200Rs. Not sure if they refund the 1200Rs though.