3 minutes ago, talahtnut said:

There may be nothing to remain in..with luck.

 

Quoted on the Hungarian government’s website, Orban said he could see a danger of fragmentation within the European Union.

"If we are left alone and they do not force islamisation on us, Europe can continue to live as the club of free nations," Orban said, but added that if Brussels forces Hungary "to accept the UN migration pact or the European Commission's decisions so as to make us fit their own Western concessive policies, a breakup [of the EU] cannot be ruled out.”

Hungary are free to leave,but they wont

17 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

How?

 

By giving the people the final choice?

 

It is denying them that choice which is against democracy.

Why would it be the "final choice"?

 

Are people's minds going to stop changing? Are old voters going to stop dying? If not, surely we'll need to go on checking the will of the people indefinitely, or else, it will be "against democracy".

5 hours ago, rixalex said:

The ECJ ruling is not binding though, just advisory (where have i heard that word before?) and the EU have consistently said that it would need the consent of all 27 EU nations for article 50 to be revoked. I

It would serve you better if you kept up to date!

 

Article 50: Law officer says UK can cancel Brexit

Quote

4 December 2018

The UK should be able to unilaterally cancel its withdrawal from the EU, according to a top European law officer.

The non-binding opinion was delivered by an advocate general of the European Court of Justice.

A group of Scottish politicians has asked the court whether the UK can call off Brexit without the consent of other member states.

The Court of Justice (ECJ) will deliver its final ruling at a later date

 

Brexit ruling: UK can cancel decision, EU court says

Quote

10 December 2018

The European Court of Justice has ruled the UK can cancel Brexit without the permission of the other 27 EU members.

The ECJ judges ruled this could be done without altering the terms of Britain's membership.

 

It is extending Article 50 beyond 29th March which requires the agreement of all 27.

 

Much of what you say in your following post is reasoned, even if I don't agree. But

5 hours ago, rixalex said:

I am saying that one of the main reasons given by remainers for ignoring the 2016 vote was that people didn't know what they were voting for and that the whole issue of remaining or leaving was far too complex for people to get their heads around.

Most Leavers in 2016 didn't know the consequences of what they were voting for. The Leave campaign never said what they believed would happen after Brexit (all the indications are that they didn't know!) and when the Remain campaign did, it was dismissed by leavers as 'Project Fear!'

 

Those of us here in the UK are fully aware that the consequences of both leaving and remaining have been much discussed since; they are discussed every day in the press, radio, TV and other media. The electorate are far more aware of the consequences of both leaving and remaining. Therefore much better able to make an informed choice.

 

You wish to deny them that informed choice, I wish to allow them it.

3 minutes ago, rixalex said:

Why would it be the "final choice"?

 I have previously explained what my option would be.

 

You chastise me for repeating the same question, yet do so yourself!

 

Here it is again for you.

 

Three options on a STV ballot:

1. Brexit on May's deal, whatever that turns out to be;
2. no deal Brexit;
3. cancel Article 50 and remain.

Got it now?

 

6 minutes ago, rixalex said:

Are people's minds going to stop changing? Are old voters going to stop dying? If not, surely we'll need to go on checking the will of the people indefinitely, or else, it will be "against democracy"

One could argue that checking the will of the people indefinitely is the very spirit of a true democracy. It is, after all, how Athenian democracy worked.

 

In the modern world, though, it is generally impractical so we elect representatives.

 

Though it is still practiced in Switzerland.

 

22 minutes ago, talahtnut said:

There may be nothing to remain in..with luck.

 

Quoted on the Hungarian government’s website, Orban said he could see a danger of fragmentation within the European Union.

"If we are left alone and they do not force islamisation on us, Europe can continue to live as the club of free nations," Orban said, but added that if Brussels forces Hungary "to accept the UN migration pact or the European Commission's decisions so as to make us fit their own Western concessive policies, a breakup [of the EU] cannot be ruled out.”

 You do realise that Viktor Orban is so far to the right that he makes Yaxley-Lennon look like a wishy-washy liberal?

 

Even the right wing  European People's Party are considering expelling him and his party.

 

 

 

 

 You do realise that Viktor Orban is so far to the right that he makes Yaxley-Lennon look like a wishy-washy liberal?
 
Even the right wing  European People's Party are considering expelling him and his party.
 
 
 
 

Exactly the type of guy we need to turn things around in the UK. He could start with EU negotiations first.


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Just now, Loiner said:

7 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

You do realise that Viktor Orban is so far to the right that he makes Yaxley-Lennon look like a wishy-washy liberal?

 

Even the right wing  European People's Party are considering expelling him and his party.

Exactly the type of guy we need to turn things around in the UK. He could start with EU negotiations first.


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Exactly the response I expected from such as you.

 

You never disappoint; your true colours always rise to the surface.

58 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 And how many of them mentioned the word 'elected?'

 

From Oxford dictionaries: 

"Bureaucrat

noun

An official in a government department, in particular one perceived as being concerned with procedural correctness at the expense of people's needs."

 

Pathetic try.

None of them mentioned the word elected which implies they could be appointed or elected. Remainers are the people who claim the EU is democratic yet can't point to the part joe public played in the election of Selmayr et al.. If they weren't elected, they were appointed and that's my bone of contention. 

Martin Selmayr has never faced an election and for a man described as "the most powerful bureaucrat in the world" that's not good enough imo. I assume as a result of your no comment stance you disagree with the ombudsman and you are happy with the way he was appointed. You seem to be very much in favour of your definition of democracy when it comes to a second referendum but less so when it comes to personnel placements in the European Union.

I'm not sure what you are trying to prove with your dictionary definition of Bureaucrat.

23 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

It would serve you better if you kept up to date!

 

Article 50: Law officer says UK can cancel Brexit

 

Brexit ruling: UK can cancel decision, EU court says

 

It is extending Article 50 beyond 29th March which requires the agreement of all 27.

 

Much of what you say in your following post is reasoned, even if I don't agree. But

Most Leavers in 2016 didn't know the consequences of what they were voting for. The Leave campaign never said what they believed would happen after Brexit (all the indications are that they didn't know!) and when the Remain campaign did, it was dismissed by leavers as 'Project Fear!'

 

Those of us here in the UK are fully aware that the consequences of both leaving and remaining have been much discussed since; they are discussed every day in the press, radio, TV and other media. The electorate are far more aware of the consequences of both leaving and remaining. Therefore much better able to make an informed choice.

 

You wish to deny them that informed choice, I wish to allow them it.

I stand corrected re the revoking of article 50. Yes, you are quite right. It was the day before the meaningful vote that the ECJ made the final ruling. Nothing political the timing of that decision at all of course.

 

Re your comments about people not knowing what they were voting for, as i have repeated many times, if that is the basis for voiding the 2016 vote outcome, the 2019, or whatever year it is, new referendum that you desire, will be subject to the exact same criticism and can be voided too, as the matter is as complex as ever and the unknowns are ever present.

 

Exactly the response I expected from such as you.
 
You never disappoint; your true colours always rise to the surface.

Yay, true blue patriot.

Typical sort of comment I’d expect from you too. Wouldn’t want to disappoint.


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1 hour ago, talahtnut said:

If most of the women in UK change their minds every month

like my missus, you're have a problem with that system.

 

Cough, excuse me - but most uk women don't change their mind every month....

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

How?

 

By giving the people the final choice?

 

It is denying them that choice which is against democracy.

I suppose the "final choice" would be anytime once you have the result you want - the remainers definition of "democratic" - spare us the bleating.

2 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 

Not in that ballot, no.

 

But if you believe in democracy then you must allow them to change their mind afterwards and ask for another vote.

But obviously you no longer beleive in Democracy, as you did in the few months after the people’s referendum. Otherwise you would still respect their decision, and support the implementation of that decision. 

 Then afterwards, if you are not happy with the result, campaign to re-join the E.U.

 

Edited March 8, 20197 yr by nontabury

2 hours ago, bomber said:

In most cases anywhere in the western world thier is a reason people live below any supposed povety line,its called wasting wbat money they have on drink,alcohol,drugs,smoking etc they then plead povety.

 

Unfortunately, that is the case with some people, but not all.

While not being religious, I do beleive in-

 

 There for the grace of god,go you or I.

 

In my case, I have always enjoyed good health,which enabled me to work hard,at all stages of my life. At times I did three jobs, sometimes working 18hrs a day. And yes I was/am angry when I see the can work, won’t work brigade. However there are also many people who through no fault of their own, are not able/ capable of supporting themselves. And therefore I am happy to see my tax support them.

 

30 minutes ago, nontabury said:

But obviously you no longer beleive in Democracy, as you did in the few months after the people’s referendum. Otherwise you would still respect their decision, and support the implementation of that decision. 

 Then afterwards, if you are not happy with the result, campaign to re-join the E.U.

 

It was the fastest growing economy at the time of the vote.BOE are clowns 10% is too high more like 2 or 3% 

37 minutes ago, nontabury said:

But obviously you no longer beleive in Democracy, as you did in the few months after the people’s referendum. Otherwise you would still respect their decision, and support the implementation of that decision. 

 Then afterwards, if you are not happy with the result, campaign to re-join the E.U.

 

Thanks for the graphic. Had a good laugh. Shows exactly why it’s not an insult to call Brexiters uneducated and ill informed. 

2 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 

 

 

2 hours ago, 7by7 said:

Most Leavers in 2016 Din’nt know the consequences of what they were voting for. The Leave campaign never said what they believed would happen after Brexit (all the indications are that they didn't know!) and when the Remain campaign did, it was dismissed by leavers as 'Project Fear!'

 

Those of us here in the UK are fully aware that the consequences of both leaving and remaining have been much discussed since; they are discussed every day in the press, radio, TV and other media. The electorate are far more aware of the consequences of both leaving and remaining. Therefore much better able to make an informed choice.

 

You wish to deny them that informed choice, I wish to allow them it.

 

 Typical arrogance, to state that those who voted to leave,din’nt know the consequence, while those who voted to remain shackled to the E.U. Did.

 

What you should have stated is that.”Those of us in the U.K. are aware of the utterly biased reporting in the U.K establishment media”

However the people now have the option of gaining unbiased and true alternative information from other sources. Live with it,and open your mind.

 

 

10 hours ago, wilcopops said:

It has been clear from the start that the arguments for brexit have been emotional and nebulous rather than critical.

It is interesting to go back to the very first threads on Brexit to see how Brexiteers arguments have changed....basically the argument to remain is unchanged and critical thinking based, whereas Brexiteers have slid from predictions of an imagined utopia to  pure racism and conspiracy theories.

Just go back a couple of years and take a look .... also look, at who is still arguing for Brexit.....those with any critical faculties have posted less and less leaving only most obtuse, fanatical and ill informed to continue regardless as tenet after tenet falls foul of reason and logic.

One thing that has been consistent from the start is remainers like yourself making fictitious and baseless comments (e.g. the above contribution), and trying to belittle those who have the opposing view by calling them ill informed etc. 

 

 

49 minutes ago, nontabury said:

But obviously you no longer beleive in Democracy, as you did in the few months after the people’s referendum. Otherwise you would still respect their decision, and support the implementation of that decision. 

 Then afterwards, if you are not happy with the result, campaign to re-join the E.U.

 

 

We are three years on since the referendum when we voted for a pig in a poke. It will be another 2 years before we actually leave . We have GE every 5 years because circumstances change and people are allowed to change their mind.

 

Now we know better what leaving will mean and on what term we will leave why is it undemocratic to allow people a vote on that?

 

Someone said today "  We will all be dead and Brexit will still be going on. Frankly, death will be a merciful relief" Although I suspect that will not be literally true  we will be dealing with the ramifications of it for at least a generation,  the political and social problems it has caused, will I suspect take much longer to sort out. 

Edited March 8, 20197 yr by tebee

10 hours ago, wilcopops said:

It has been clear from the start that the arguments for brexit have been emotional and nebulous rather than critical.

It is interesting to go back to the very first threads on Brexit to see how Brexiteers arguments have changed....basically the argument to remain is unchanged and critical thinking based, whereas Brexiteers have slid from predictions of an imagined utopia to  pure racism and conspiracy theories.

Just go back a couple of years and take a look .... also look, at who is still arguing for Brexit.....those with any critical faculties have posted less and less leaving only most obtuse, fanatical and ill informed to continue regardless as tenet after tenet falls foul of reason and logic.

 

 

 Ah yes, the racism card,yet no mention of those remain supporters on T.V

who support the uncontrolled immigration of white people from Europe, while criticizing the system that allows people from south of the Mediterranean and Asian to gain legal entry into the U.K.

 

 

11 hours ago, wilcopops said:

It has been clear from the start that the arguments for brexit have been emotional and nebulous rather than critical.

It is interesting to go back to the very first threads on Brexit to see how Brexiteers arguments have changed....basically the argument to remain is unchanged and critical thinking based, whereas Brexiteers have slid from predictions of an imagined utopia to  pure racism and conspiracy theories.

Just go back a couple of years and take a look .... also look, at who is still arguing for Brexit.....those with any critical faculties have posted less and less leaving only most obtuse, fanatical and ill informed to continue regardless as tenet after tenet falls foul of reason and logic.

"rather than critical" ?

Utter Tosh! This was a recent posting of mine. Are you saying it's not critical?

It governed my reason for voting leave outweighing any remain arguments. 

 

"Perhaps you could now give your reasons why you want to stay in a bureaucratic superstate  which has bailouts in contravention of the Maastricht Treaty, mass youth unemployment, target  2 imbalances, German surplus outside the rules, impending Italian default, low growth, corruption, waste, an internal currency which only truly benefits one country, unaudited accounts, a migrant crisis, transit camps for those migrants with papers at the Austrian border, a member who freeloads on Nato defence, but, against Union rules gets a sweetheart deal on energy which is not available to other members.........…….etc "

 

The problem is when Leavers are faced with the critical they ignore the issues, preferring to concentrate on a perceived doom and gloom Brexit scenario....insults are less brain taxing. They feel the only people who need to answer questions are Leavers.

Perhaps you would like to address why I am wrong about my perceived EU issues. If you did you would be the first, an explanation has always appeared to be completely outside the Remainer's comfort zone. 

 

 

1 hour ago, nontabury said:

 

Unfortunately, that is the case with some people, but not all.

While not being religious, I do beleive in-

 

 There for the grace of god,go you or I.

 

In my case, I have always enjoyed good health,which enabled me to work hard,at all stages of my life. At times I did three jobs, sometimes working 18hrs a day. And yes I was/am angry when I see the can work, won’t work brigade. However there are also many people who through no fault of their own, are not able/ capable of supporting themselves. And therefore I am happy to see my tax support them.

 

the genuine who cannot work are well taken care of as are large parts of the dont want to work but these in most cases are the one's who live in and around the poverty line yet they love a drink a smoke,2 dogs and like to live off take aways,ive rented homes to plenty of them over the years to know and wouldnt mind a quid for every dog end or beer can ive had to clean up,utter lazy filthy british scum bags.

1 hour ago, nontabury said:

 

 

 

 Typical arrogance, to state that those who voted to leave,din’nt know the consequence, while those who voted to remain shackled to the E.U. Did.

 

What you should have stated is that.”Those of us in the U.K. are aware of the utterly biased reporting in the U.K establishment media”

However the people now have the option of gaining unbiased and true alternative information from other sources. Live with it,and open your mind.

 

 

another one who is going to end up in tears when his beloved brexit doesnt deliver.

1 hour ago, nontabury said:

But obviously you no longer beleive in Democracy, as you did in the few months after the people’s referendum. Otherwise you would still respect their decision, and support the implementation of that decision. 

 Then afterwards, if you are not happy with the result, campaign to re-join the E.U.

 

IMF downgraded the UKs growth forecast on the 19th of last month so what has changed its "projection" in 2-3 weeks?  brexit not happening perhaps,  

Edited March 8, 20197 yr by bomber

Worth watching, Tony Benn at his best again. "The people in favour of the EU has never had the guts to tell the people whats it all about"

Quality of the picture not too good, but the audio is ok.

 

 

On 3/7/2019 at 1:13 PM, talahtnut said:

Democracy is an illusion, whichever way you vote, nothing

changes.

We can understand this, by examining the original psychological

ideals responsible for the foundation of the EU.

An interesting read from that period would be 'Practical Idealism',

by Kalergi.  Scary stuff!

You think that's scary?  Just look what is on the cards for the UK states we fail to break free from the shackles of an increasingly undemocratic and power-drunk European Union.

 

https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/03/06/eu-chance-end-nationalist-nightmare/

7 minutes ago, Krataiboy said:

You think that's scary?  Just look what is on the cards for the UK states we fail to break free from the shackles of an increasingly undemocratic and power-drunk European Union.

 

https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/03/06/eu-chance-end-nationalist-nightmare/

iam quite sure if the UK wanted to jump ship at a later date it would be able to,leaving with the help in hand of another 1 or 2 nations would be much better proposition.

7 minutes ago, bomber said:

iam quite sure if the UK wanted to jump ship at a later date it would be able to,leaving with the help in hand of another 1 or 2 nations would be much better proposition.

I'll let the Bard do the talking for me: 

 

"Why let 'I would' wait upon 'I will'" -  particularly when we've already voted Leave? 

 

"Screw your courage to the sticking place and we'll not fail".

 

 

10 minutes ago, Krataiboy said:

I'll let the Bard do the talking for me: 

 

"Why let 'I would' wait upon 'I will'" -  particularly when we've already voted Leave? 

 

"Screw your courage to the sticking place and we'll not fail".

 

 

the UK failed to very little right even before brexit,the chance's of it getting it right after are slim to zero.

53 minutes ago, Krataiboy said:

You think that's scary?  Just look what is on the cards for the UK states we fail to break free from the shackles of an increasingly undemocratic and power-drunk European Union.

 

https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/03/06/eu-chance-end-nationalist-nightmare/

 Very interesting. Throughout these threads, I have on numerous occasions raised the question, of what would happen if we were to remain in  this Undemocratic Union.

And then for some unknown ???????????? reason, the remainers then go into silent mode, except for those many occasions, when they somehow manage to predict all sorts of doom and gloom, for when we take our sovereignty back.