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[rooster59]

J&J shares nosedive on report it knew of asbestos in Baby Powder

By Saumya Joseph

 

FILE PHOTO: A Johnson & Johnson building is shown in Irvine, California, U.S., January 24, 2017. REUTERS/Mike Blake/File Photo

 

(Reuters) - Shares of Johnson & Johnson <JNJ.N> fell 10 percent on Friday and were on track to post their biggest percentage drop in more than 16 years, after Reuters reported that the pharma major knew for decades that cancer-causing asbestos lurked in its Baby Powder.

 

The decline in shares erased about $40 billion from the company's market capitalization, with investors worrying about the impact of the report as it faces thousands of talc-related lawsuits.

 

The stock was the biggest drag on the broader Dow Jones Industrial Average <.DJI> and S&P 500 <.SPX> indexes and was among the most traded on U.S. exchanges. About 28 million shares exchanged hands by 1830 GMT, more than three times its 25-day moving average.

 

J&J was found to have known about the presence of small amounts of asbestos in its products from as early as 1971, a Reuters examination of company memos, internal reports and other confidential documents showed.

 

The report also said the company had commissioned and paid for studies conducted on its Baby Powder franchise and hired a ghostwriter to redraft the article that presented the findings in a journal.

 

In response to the report, the company said "any suggestion that Johnson & Johnson knew or hid information about the safety of talc is false."

 

"This is all a calculated attempt to distract from the fact that thousands of independent tests prove our talc does not contain asbestos or cause cancer," Ernie Knewitz, J&J's vice president of global media relations, wrote in an emailed response to the report.

 

The company also said Baby Powder was asbestos-free and added it would continue to defend the safety of its product.

 

At least two Wall Street analysts said the stock appeared to be oversold on the news.

 

"In our opinion litigation overhangs are real, and we do not minimize the situation, but the stock pull back does seem over done to us," BMO Capital Markets analyst Joanne Wuensch said.

 

J&J, in 1976, had assured the U.S. Food and Drug Administration that no asbestos was "detected in any sample" of talc produced between December 1972 and October 1973 when at least three tests by three different labs from 1972 to 1975 had found asbestos in its talc.

 

The company has been battling more than 10,000 cases claiming its Baby Powder and Shower to Shower products cause ovarian cancer. The products have also been linked with mesothelioma, a rare and deadly form of cancer that affects the delicate tissue that lines body cavities.

 

"We believe it is highly unlikely the company's exposure to this talc issue will even come close to the $40 billion in lost market cap today," J.P. Morgan analysts said.

 

They added that talc was not an issue that would resolve quickly for J&J and expect shares to trade at a lower multiple pending further clarity on the company’s exposure to the issue.

 

While J&J has dominated the talc powder market for more than 100 years, the products contributed to a mere 0.5 percent of its revenue of $76.5 billion last year. Talc cases make up fewer than 10 percent of all personal injury lawsuits pending against the company.

 

However, Baby Powder is considered essential to J&J's image as a caring company – a "sacred cow," as one 2003 internal email put it.

 

CFRA Research analyst Colin Sarcola said, "We see today's news potentially impacting sales of everything from baby shampoo to prosthetic hips."

 

"Given these elevated risks, we no longer feel JNJ shares are attractive at recent prices," Sarcola added.

 

Shares were last down 8 percent at $135.85, also pulling down the broader S&P 500 healthcare index <.SPXHC>.

 

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2018-12-15

 

[zydeco]

6 hours ago, rooster59 said:

"In our opinion litigation overhangs are real, and we do not minimize the situation, but the stock pull back does seem over done to us," BMO Capital Markets analyst Joanne Wuensch said.

Translation: Yes, a lot of people have and are going to suffer from mesotheliomia because of this company's deliberate deceptions, but, hey, we can make some money, here.

[JAG]

Interesting, I've seen a couple of remarks somewhere or other about talcum powder causing cancer, I assume this is where the "internet murmurings" stem from?

[watcharacters]

 

J & J weathered the 1982 Tylenol scandal pretty well.

 

http://time.com/3423136/tylenol-deaths-1982/

 

[IAMHERE]

How much talcum do you have to place on yourself to get ovarian cancer. Seems a tenuous connection to me. 

 

[TopDeadSenter]

28 minutes ago, IAMHERE said:

How much talcum do you have to place on yourself to get ovarian cancer. Seems a tenuous connection to me. 

 

Unless you are snorting lines of it, I wouldn't worry at all.

[Credo]

3 hours ago, TopDeadSenter said:

Unless you are snorting lines of it, I wouldn't worry at all.

Anyone who has walked into a room after someone has put powder on will know how nefarious and airborne it is.   I don't think snorting lines is necessary to have an affect.

 

In places like Thailand, a lot of powder is used.

 

[attrayant]

4 hours ago, IAMHERE said:

How much talcum do you have to place on yourself to get ovarian cancer. Seems a tenuous connection to me. 

 

 

It is.  Just like the recent Monsanto/Glyphosate case, the jury did not base their decision on the science.

 

Here's a large meta-analysis involving almost twelve thousand subjects.  It found a 33% relative risk increase for women who rub baby powder into their hoo-hahs.  That might sound like a lot, but the annual baseline risk of ovarian cancer is 0.0121%.  Increasing that by 33% brings it up to 0.0161%, so the absolute risk increase, if real, is tiny at 0.004%.   An important footnote to that study is that the authors themselves suggested the increased risk might not even be real because:
 

• there was no dose response
• the increase was not seen in hospital-based populations; only in home-based populations
• home-based studies are observational and rely heavily on self-reporting, meaning that women who developed ovarian cancer were more likely to remember using talc

 

Even if real, the 0.004% absolute risk increase translates to 4 extra cases of ovarian cancer for every one million women who rub talc into their vertical smile.

 

Should manufacturers warn us about such tiny possibilities of harm?  If we have to look at a warning label whenever there is a 0.004% increased risk of being harmed by some product, we're going to be looking at warning labels everywhere, on everything.  Consumers will become subject to alarm fatigue and begin to ignore all the warnings.  Think of California's ridiculous proposition 65.

Edited December 15, 2018 by attrayant

[Stargeezr]

If J and J knew of this asbestos, they deserve to go bankrupt over the lawsuits soon to hurled at them. Good Riddance.

Geezer

[Prissana Pescud]

8 hours ago, Credo said:

Anyone who has walked into a room after someone has put powder on will know how nefarious and airborne it is.   I don't think snorting lines is necessary to have an affect.

 

In places like Thailand, a lot of powder is used.

 

I suspect that airborn talc will never ever get near the ovaries, or testes for that matter

[Prissana Pescud]

18 hours ago, JAG said:

Interesting, I've seen a couple of remarks somewhere or other about talcum powder causing cancer, I assume this is where the "internet murmurings" stem from?

I used to be employed by Rio Tinto in West Aust. (glorified labourer).

But on a cross information visit to a Talc mining pit, (for viewing how they managed tyre failure on dump trucks)

I saw some veins of blue asbestos in the open pit.

I do not know if this mine provides talc to J&J. I do not know if the asbestos was separated from the talc.

It was just a few small veins. But I can confirm that asbestos may be present in talc At This Pit.

 Mesothelioma is a lousy way way to die, you slowly suffocate.

 I have slept on old tailings of asbestos and have been through the almost extinct town of Wittenoom where

huge amounts of asbestos was removed. I am lucky, I have never suffered from this dreadful disease.

[Cryingdick]

1 hour ago, Stargrazer9889 said:

If J and J knew of this asbestos, they deserve to go bankrupt over the lawsuits

soon to hurled at them. Good Riddance.

Geezer

If Reuters falsely reported this they likewise should pay a heavy price. 10% of JNJ equals $40 billion dollars of damage. So far it doesn't seem there is any proof other than Reuters reported it. 

 

Analysts and news agencies go unpunished when they get it wrong and do massive damage. I don't just mean this case but everyday there are reports that aren't true that come out that manipulate or affect stock prices. If they are true they stick but if they remain unproven they don't go unpunished.

 

The latest one like this I remember was Bloomberg reporting there were Chinese chips supposedly the size of a pencil tip embedded in Apple's data centers. Never mind that what they said they were capable of is simply impossible with today's technology. No retraction no apology. 

 

I am not seeing anything from Reuters that backs up what they are reporting. 

Edited December 15, 2018 by Cryingdick

[Credo]

1 hour ago, Prissana Pescud said:

I suspect that airborn talc will never ever get near the ovaries, or testes for that matter

A lot of people use talc on the wetter parts of the body, including the private areas.   

[Credo]

1 hour ago, Cryingdick said:

If Reuters falsely reported this they likewise should pay a heavy price. 10% of JNJ equals $40 billion dollars of damage. So far it doesn't seem there is any proof other than Reuters reported it. 

 

Analysts and news agencies go unpunished when they get it wrong and do massive damage. I don't just mean this case but everyday there are reports that aren't true that come out that manipulate or affect stock prices. If they are true they stick but if they remain unproven they don't go unpunished.

 

The latest one like this I remember was Bloomberg reporting there were Chinese chips supposedly the size of a pencil tip embedded in Apple's data centers. Never mind that what they said they were capable of is simply impossible with today's technology. No retraction no apology. 

 

I am not seeing anything from Reuters that backs up what they are reporting. 

The link between ovarian cancer and the use of talc has been reported for a long time.    I read about it approximately a year ago.   Here's a little more, with nothing related to Reuters (note the date of 1976):

 

In 1976, the Cosmetic, Toiletry, and Fragrances Association (CTFA), which is the trade association representing the cosmetic and personal care products industry, issued voluntary guidelines stating that all talc used in cosmetic products in the United States should be free from detectable amounts of asbestos according to their standards.

Most concerns about a possible link between talcum powder and cancer have been focused on:

• Whether people who have long-term exposure to talc particles at work, such as talc miners, are at higher risk of lung cancer from breathing them in.
• Whether women who apply talcum powder regularly in the genital area have an increased risk of ovarian cancer.
• https://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancer-causes/talcum-powder-and-cancer.html

[mtls2005]

Jeez, what's the world coming to.

 

Next thing you know people will be complaining about manufacturers putting lead in bullets.

 

Time for J&J to tout the benefits of asbestos in baby powder...

 

- keep your little ones dry, and fire-proof

 

- insulate your nethers in the winter

 

 

[Prissana Pescud]

9 minutes ago, Credo said:

A lot of people use talc on the wetter parts of the body, including the private areas.   

Do you know how far the talc would have to travel from the males or female genitals to get to the very internal parts of genitalia. 

My opinion is that there can be no link to testicular nor ovarian cancer caused by talc.

Even shoving it up the orrifices would be blocked by constrictions further up.

Breathing in vast amounts of talcum powder, silica, some asbestos and other unknowns may have an effect on the lungs and throat. IMO

[mtls2005]

6 minutes ago, Prissana Pescud said:

Do you know how far the talc would have to travel from the males or female genitals to get to the very internal parts of genitalia. 

 

Not nearly as far as from one's mouth to one's lungs I imagine?

 

 

[Prissana Pescud]

1 minute ago, mtls2005 said:

 

Not nearly as far as from one's mouth to one's lungs I imagine?

 

 

Mesothelioma is caused by certain fibres of asbestos, silica and other partially substanciated substances entering into the lungs by the process of breathing. It is the particles that irritate the lungs into cancerous reaction, also by smothering in copious clouds of dust.

The internal male and female genitals do not breathe.

The female genitals eject, reject any substance in the uterus. It takes a lot for male sperm to reach the female womb.

It has to swim past the cervix for a start. No talcum powder will ever swim up a womans internals, it will be ejected by a mucus that cleanses the vagina.

 Please do not compare mesothelioma to any disease of the ovaries or the testes. It is not only unscientific, impossible and laughable if it were not so serious.

[mtls2005]

I was not comparing the potential incidence of ovarian cancer related to the use of asbestos-laced talcum powder with mesothelioma. I was. rather, simply highlighting that there may be a SIMILARITY in the way these sorts of things are first ignored, hidden by manufacturers before finally becoming accepted science.

 

I wonder how the workers in the baby powder plant are feeling these days? "Bout time they got us some masks, eh?"

[LomSak27]

Just now, mtls2005 said:

I wonder how the workers in the baby powder plant are feeling these days? "Bout time they got us some masks, eh?"

Now need to tire out your that overworked cranium by 'wondering' ... this article is talking about events. in 1971 to 73 or 75, more than forty years in the past.    ????

 

Have a Leo dude!  

 

 

 

[mtls2005]

8 minutes ago, LomSak27 said:

Now need to tire out your that overworked cranium by 'wondering' ... this article is talking about events. in 1971 to 73 or 75, more than forty years in the past.    ????

 

Have a Leo dude!  

 

 

 

 

J&J, in 1976, had assured the U.S. Food and Drug Administration that no asbestos was "detected in any sample" of talc produced between December 1972 and October 1973 when at least three tests by three different labs from 1972 to 1975 had found asbestos in its talc.

 

 

According to J&J. I feel so assured that they are reliable sources of accurate information.

 

 

But I guess your point is that most of these workers are now dead. Thanks for that ringing, beer-induced point.

 

 

 

 

 

[Prissana Pescud]

56 minutes ago, Credo said:

The link between ovarian cancer and the use of talc has been reported for a long time.    I read about it approximately a year ago.   Here's a little more, with nothing related to Reuters (note the date of 1976):

 

In 1976, the Cosmetic, Toiletry, and Fragrances Association (CTFA), which is the trade association representing the cosmetic and personal care products industry, issued voluntary guidelines stating that all talc used in cosmetic products in the United States should be free from detectable amounts of asbestos according to their standards.

Most concerns about a possible link between talcum powder and cancer have been focused on:

• Whether people who have long-term exposure to talc particles at work, such as talc miners, are at higher risk of lung cancer from breathing them in.
• Whether women who apply talcum powder regularly in the genital area have an increased risk of ovarian cancer.
• https://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancer-causes/talcum-powder-and-cancer.html

Yes if you read the post, the conclusion is that it is unlikely and based on memory loss. IE. The idea was suggested by researchers and then

the patient had little recollection about what they were applying to their genitals and so on.

 

I suggest you have a look at diagrams of the female reproduction system, the natural way that the uterus cleanses itself,

the natural stages of the outer female genitalia and the far recesses of the ovaries. The long passage of the uterus, the womb and the tiny ovarian tubes.

For powder to be able to swim up to these regions is almost laughable. Unlike sperm, which have an enormous battle to just reach the womb, never mind the ovaries, powder does not swim against all of the obstacles that the female reproductive system has. Bacteria may, inert powder, no. 

If you want to have a rant against J&J, stick to talc as a breathable powder.

[LomSak27]

Just now, mtls2005 said:

But I guess your point is that most of these workers are now dead. Thanks for that ringing, beer-induced point.

 

Nope, try this ............ 

 

17 minutes ago, mtls2005 said:

I wonder how the workers in the baby powder plant are feeling these days? "Bout time they got us some masks, eh?"

 

If you read that post again, maybe two times, mtis is referring to workers TODAY, right now, not in the past. 

 

ahhhhh oooooooow, uhhhhhhhhhhhhh 

 

Crack yourself another Leo!   It's all good

 

Remember ... We won't wait for Santa Claus!

[Prissana Pescud]

33 minutes ago, mtls2005 said:

I was not comparing the potential incidence of ovarian cancer related to the use of asbestos-laced talcum powder with mesothelioma. I was. rather, simply highlighting that there may be a SIMILARITY in the way these sorts of things are first ignored, hidden by manufacturers before finally becoming accepted science.

 

I wonder how the workers in the baby powder plant are feeling these days? "Bout time they got us some masks, eh?"

And how many workers that have been employed in talcum powder factories been diagnosed with overian cancer,

or testicular cancer or mesothelioma. Over the centuries. Beyond the normal incidence of these diseases. 

 There is no similarity at all. Please give it away.

 I suspect that in All western factories, including talc process factories that have airborn particles, masks are compulsory.

Work in the industry before you presume guilt for your unsubstanciated and almost laughable posts.

[Cryingdick]

It's a farce but makes good news so the type of people that think corporations are inherently evil can don their tinfoil caps. Now is a great time to buy stock in JNJ. 

 

I bought some yesterday.

[mtls2005]

6 minutes ago, Prissana Pescud said:

And how many workers that have been employed in talcum powder factories been diagnosed with overian cancer,

 

I don't know.

 

Again, the history is that manufacturers always deny, obfuscate, hide internal memos and data. Did this happen in this case? I obviously don't know. But the over/under is is probably ZERO?

 

14 minutes ago, LomSak27 said:

If you read that post again, maybe two times, mtis is referring to workers TODAY, right now, not in the past. 

 

Sorry for the poor choice of a timeline and tenses. How about, way back in the past J&J workers were saying "Bout time they got us some masks". Is that better?

 

 

[janclaes47]

Bit strange that this info is not included in the OP.

 

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/j-j-apos-intraday-plunge-155918286.html

In July, a jury ordered the company to pay $4.69 billion to women who claimed asbestos in the products caused them to develop ovarian cancer.

J&J is facing other legal pressures as well. It has started settling thousands of claims that allegedly defective artificial hips sold by the company hurt patients. Bloomberg reported earlier this week that the company was willing to pay more than $400 million to settle about 3,300 of the 10,000 suits targeting its Pinnacle line of hip-replacement devices, citing people familiar with the matter.

[attrayant]

Maybe we should put all the vexing questions of our time before a jury to find out the Real Truth.  Is there a god?  Which is the one, true religion?  How did the universe begin?  What is the meaning of life?  Did we really go to the moon?  What happens after we die?  Earth: spherical or flat?

 

I can't wait to find out the answers to these timeless questions.

[ballpoint]

47 minutes ago, attrayant said:

Maybe we should put all the vexing questions of our time before a jury to find out the Real Truth.  Is there a god?  Which is the one, true religion?  How did the universe begin?  What is the meaning of life?  Did we really go to the moon?  What happens after we die?  Earth: spherical or flat?

 

I can't wait to find out the answers to these timeless questions.

No.

Ridiculous question, like asking "Which is the smartest ocean?" 

Big bang.

Replication and survival of DNA and, by extension, genes.

Yes.

We're dead.

Neither, but (much, much,) closer to the former.

[natway09]

If it is indeed "blue " the MD needs shooting.    (Look it up)