20 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Is it time for the UK to move to proportional representation? It has it's faults but it has it's advantages too. Seems to work for Germany.

The problem is that there has already been a referendum on proportional representation - and for some reason (that escapes me), it was rejected.

5 minutes ago, Spidey said:

I actually enjoy my regular TVF holidays for the same reason as @dick dasterdly. Probably going on a permanent holiday soon.

That would be a shame.

 

I have mostly liked your posts, though I didn't agree with all of them.

37 minutes ago, oilinki said:

So, what will happen in UK politics in 2019?

 

While currently the Tories are occupied and pretty much lead by the extreme right wingers and Labour is lead by extreme left winger Corbyn, there is very little room for the moderate minded, thinking people. 

 

In 2019 there will be a new centrist party created, which attracts possibly 20% of current MP's, on both sides. While the start is not a lot, that still means that there will be general elections as current government has lost the confidence of the parliament. 

 

During the elections, there are more MP's turning in to the new centrist party. They'll gain 30% support. 

 

This means that the next government is going include the centrists, not matter what. Torys are not going to form a government with Labour, so the centrists are going to be in the government and pretty much dictate the rules of the future.

 

After that, will the UK re-apply to EU membership (losing many of it's previous extra benefits)? Perhaps? Perhaps UK will wait a couple of years and see how things turn out before deciding to either apply or stay outside of EU.

 

dream on,

may get votes but not MPs

major redesign of electoral system is needed for smth like you describe to happen

 

38 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Is it time for the UK to move to proportional representation? It has it's faults but it has it's advantages too. Seems to work for Germany.

It's a great idea, one which I'm totally in favour. But seeing that FPTP seems to favour the largest parties, I can't see Labour or the Tories voting for prop rep. It would certainly change the face of British Politics though.

 

44 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

The Imitation Game wasn't.

I also enjoyed The Fifth Estate and the Sherlock TV series.

34 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Is it time for the UK to move to proportional representation? It has it's faults but it has it's advantages too. Seems to work for Germany.

yes it is

it is overdue

 

UK ain't gonna hack it in a modern world if you cant construct parliaments

reflecting the political wishes of the voters

 

4 minutes ago, Spidey said:

I actually enjoy my regular TVF holidays for the same reason as @dick dasterdly. Probably going on a permanent holiday soon.

Avoid commenting on moderation, and you should be ok as long - as you're not obviously abusive to another member.

 

Keep the insults 'general' - and as far as I can see it's not a problem.

3 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Avoid commenting on moderation, and you should be ok as long - as you're not obviously abusive to another member.

 

Keep the insults 'general' - and as far as I can see it's not a problem.

It's the first one that gets me every time. I just can't help myself. Must learn to bite my tongue.

8 minutes ago, vogie said:

It's a great idea, one which I'm totally in favour. But seeing that FPTP seems to favour the largest parties, I can't see Labour or the Tories voting for prop rep. It would certainly change the face of British Politics though.

The SNP might reply that they contested far, far less seats.

 

 

 

yep

that is the problem with changes to electoral schemes,

short sighted losers agree - short sighted winners disagree 

 

and

if smth like that should happen in UK,

say 20 constituencies filling up 200-300 MP positions (say every 4 or 5 years and no snap crap in between)

there is no way you would make it 100% first time around

the schemes must be fine tuned / changed some based on experiences

and then you will meet the short sighted winner/looser syndrome again

 

the only way this could happen I think would be if

voters in UK went on strike

simply refused to vote or refused to vote Labour or Tory

until electoral schemes are changed

 

26 minutes ago, vogie said:

It's a great idea, one which I'm totally in favour. But seeing that FPTP seems to favour the largest parties, I can't see Labour or the Tories voting for prop rep. It would certainly change the face of British Politics though.

 

 

would have been interesting to see the geographical distribution re these columns

 

4 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

would have been interesting to see the geographical distribution re these columns

 

https://www.indy100.com/article/uk-election-map-proportional-representation-system-2017-conservative-labour-7784956

37 minutes ago, vogie said:

It's a great idea, one which I'm totally in favour. But seeing that FPTP seems to favour the largest parties, I can't see Labour or the Tories voting for prop rep. It would certainly change the face of British Politics though.

 

If one would add party coalitions to the proportional representation, the new centrist party, liberal democrats and greens would probably get a lot more votes as people wouldn't need to vote strategically either Tories or Labour - to get the politics at least partly the way they want politics to go towards. 

 

This would also force both two large parties to renew themselves and their politics.

 

 

 

 

13 minutes ago, vogie said:

https://www.indy100.com/article/uk-election-map-proportional-representation-system-2017-conservative-labour-7784956

 interesting indeed (weren't Shetland and Orkneys calculated or are they totally libdem?)

 

I think that one of several measures that can be used for estimating the need for changes

is to look at average number of votes behind a MP (labour tory snp libdem "ukip")

and then look at how many votes are wasted in each constituency (labour tory snp libdem ukip)

wasted = votes cast not being rewarded with a MP

 

simple measures like these can often indicate the degree of rottenness in the state of D

53 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

yes it is

it is overdue

 

UK ain't gonna hack it in a modern world if you cant construct parliaments

reflecting the political wishes of the voters

 

 

would like to add something

 

this  thread or another Brexit thread,

this user "owl sees it all" made a comment;

 

Let us all pull together and make Britain Great once more

 

good luck with that, probably a sound/honest objective

 

but in my view,

it ain't gonna happen unless you have a parliament where the composition reflects

the wishes  of the voters

and you have a sovereign parliament - not on short leash held by cabinet

 

2 hours ago, vogie said:

It's a great idea, one which I'm totally in favour. But seeing that FPTP seems to favour the largest parties, I can't see Labour or the Tories voting for prop rep. It would certainly change the face of British Politics though.

 

In the 21st C it would also make sense to implement 'votes for life' regardless of geographic location tied to our NI numbers, and for the millions living abroad (that are no less British for doing so) to have a voice in Parliament.

Latest mythbusting:

 

I can just imagine Barnier saying to JCJ 'no tongues' while Tusk is saying 'hurry up, its my go'

 

 

17 minutes ago, evadgib said:

In the 21st C it would also make sense to implement 'votes for life' regardless of geographic location tied to our NI numbers, and for the millions living abroad (that are no less British for doing so) to have a voice in Parliament.

If "Americans abroad" can vote and Brits in the EU can vote, why can't we?

Quote

"What would remainers do a without project fear?"

The salient point in.....

 

24 minutes ago, Spidey said:

If "Americans abroad" can vote and Brits in the EU can vote, why can't we?

 

 

 

 

I can.

 

 

I did.

35 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

 

 

I can.

 

 

I did.

Well, actually I did vote in the referendum but I'll take the 5th on how.

3 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

The problem is that there has already been a referendum on proportional representation - and for some reason (that escapes me), it was rejected.

Yes the PR vote was part of the Tory Lib pact. However the Tories craftily scuppered it by giving an unattractive version of PR (Alternative vote) and then campaigning against it whereas I believe it was part of the agreement that they would remain neutral. Clegg should have kicked Cameron in the conjones at that point, but he was spineless. Not really a true reflection of the value of PR IMHO.

 

The basic problem aside from PR is that Westminster now has the most unintelligent, inarticulate, inadequate, dishonest, and in many cases simply corrupt, collection of MPs I have ever seen in my lifetime (Both sides). How we have the brass neck to spend so much time criticizing the EU with this mote in our own eye beggars belief.

 

There is however a solution, in future MPs will be randomly selected from members of the public by a computer protected from Russian interference. Unwitting members of the public will then be press ganged into serving for a fixed term against their will (A bit like Jury duty) their prime qualification being that they really don't want the job. I believe - naively possibly - that most members of the public are basically decent.  The ones we don't want in Parliament are those who want to be there, for their own self serving reasons. Just looking at the leaders, May's primary motivation seems to be preserving the value of her husband's arms shares, and Corbyn wants to take us back to the long dead, and now largely irrelevant, ideology of the 1970s LP, and that's just the leaders, ..........Jesus!

and then it is a proper time to repeat "owl sees all"

 

let us all pull together and make Britain Great once more

 

 

3 hours ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

 

 

I can.

 

 

I did.

Me too

2 hours ago, Nigel Garvie said:

Yes the PR vote was part of the Tory Lib pact. However the Tories craftily scuppered it by giving an unattractive version of PR (Alternative vote) and then campaigning against it whereas I believe it was part of the agreement that they would remain neutral. Clegg should have kicked Cameron in the conjones at that point, but he was spineless. Not really a true reflection of the value of PR IMHO.

 

The basic problem aside from PR is that Westminster now has the most unintelligent, inarticulate, inadequate, dishonest, and in many cases simply corrupt, collection of MPs I have ever seen in my lifetime (Both sides). How we have the brass neck to spend so much time criticizing the EU with this mote in our own eye beggars belief.

 

There is however a solution, in future MPs will be randomly selected from members of the public by a computer protected from Russian interference. Unwitting members of the public will then be press ganged into serving for a fixed term against their will (A bit like Jury duty) their prime qualification being that they really don't want the job. I believe - naively possibly - that most members of the public are basically decent.  The ones we don't want in Parliament are those who want to be there, for their own self serving reasons. Just looking at the leaders, May's primary motivation seems to be preserving the value of her husband's arms shares, and Corbyn wants to take us back to the long dead, and now largely irrelevant, ideology of the 1970s LP, and that's just the leaders, ..........Jesus!

Well the pay is good, as are the perks and the UNFROZEN pension.

 

ps://www.parliament.uk/about/mps-and-lords/members/pay-mps/

 

The basic annual salary for an MP from 1 April 2018 is £77,379. MPs also receive expenses to cover the costs of running an office, employing staff, having somewhere to live in London or their constituency, and travelling between Parliament and their constituency.

 

http://www.theipsa.org.uk/mp-costs

 

Budget heading	Area	Annual budget
Accommodation costs (for MPs claiming for rental payments)	Renting in the London Area	£22,850
	Non-London Area	£15,940
Accommodation costs – associated costs only (for MPs who own their own homes)	N/A	£5,150
Office costs	London Area	£27,660
	Non-London Area	£24,880
Staffing costs	London Area	£164,460
	Non-London Area	£153,620
Winding-up costs	London Area	£57,150
	Non-London Area	£53,950
Start-up supplement	N/A	£6,000
London Area Living Payment (LALP)	For eligible MPs on a monthly basis	£3,940
Additional London Area Living Payment	For eligible MPs on a monthly basis	£1,395
Accommodation costs - uplift for MPs with dependants (for MPs claiming for rent). Maximum of 3 uplifts allowed.	Per eligible dependant per year	£5,435

maybe I'd consider becoming an MP when I grow up

 

combining that with being MEP would ensure plenty Belhaven weekly

 

Swedish msm, no deal Brexit

 

just saw it, they refer to a no deal Brexit as leaving EU by alexanderhugg, ie Alexandrian cut

 

(Alexander the Great's way of fixing troublesome knots)

 

 

 

On 12/28/2018 at 11:02 AM, sungod said:

Cant help thinking a Loony Left Labour government will be far more damaging to the economy than Brexit ????

 

How people continue to vote for a failed ideology called Socialism again and again in modern Britain is bizarre.

 

Socialism has failed time and time again, the latest victims being the Venezuelan people, yet millions of British people still think the Labour party is the party of the working class Lol.

 

Oh but Venezuela failed because it wasn't the right sort of Socialism or its the US's fault the Lefty Libtards will scream out, never Socialisms fault. 

 

I can only think its not Socialism that Labour supporters vote for but they vote against the Tories and hatred of the rich.

 

Politicians on both sides of the house have not served the peoples decision to leave the European Union in a respectable fashion, they are an international disgrace. 

12 minutes ago, buddy said:

 

How people continue to vote for a failed ideology called Socialism again and again in modern Britain is bizarre.

 

Socialism has failed time and time again, the latest victims being the Venezuelan people, yet millions of British people still think the Labour party is the party of the working class Lol.

 

Oh but Venezuela failed because it wasn't the right sort of Socialism or its the US's fault the Lefty Libtards will scream out, never Socialisms fault. 

 

I can only think its not Socialism that Labour supporters vote for but they vote against the Tories and hatred of the rich.

 

Politicians on both sides of the house have not served the peoples decision to leave the European Union in a respectable fashion, they are an international disgrace. 

 

fully agree with your last paragraph, but not only international - also national

 

(don't offer much for your first 4 paragraphs though)

 

 

23 minutes ago, buddy said:

 

How people continue to vote for a failed ideology called Socialism again and again in modern Britain is bizarre.

 

Socialism has failed time and time again, the latest victims being the Venezuelan people, yet millions of British people still think the Labour party is the party of the working class Lol.

 

Oh but Venezuela failed because it wasn't the right sort of Socialism or its the US's fault the Lefty Libtards will scream out, never Socialisms fault. 

 

I can only think its not Socialism that Labour supporters vote for but they vote against the Tories and hatred of the rich.

 

Politicians on both sides of the house have not served the peoples decision to leave the European Union in a respectable fashion, they are an international disgrace. 

Socialism works rather well in Nordic countries, would you agree? It simply means that the wealth of the nation is shared rather fairly between it's people. There are no super rich and no super poor people. 

 

Socialism is an ideology where a country acts as one large village. One person or a family needs help, others help the family until it can do things on it's own.

 

Functional socialism is a trampoline. It allows people to try to do things, they wouldn't dear to try otherwise (this also means capitalism, doing your own business). If things go well, that's good or all the people (as we pay high taxes). If things doesn't go too well.. well, then we'll have to help the guy in need.

 

Venezuela doesn't have functional socialism. It has authoritarian dictatorship, quite like Russia. 

 

You can think many functions in your country, which are based on socialism. The police force, the fire department, NHS. 

 

Military is more of communism. Brothers in arms. One for all, all for one. Unity of the community. That's probably the purest society there is, but it always comes with authoritarian leaders and hierarchy.