Disappearing democracy

[Odysseus123]

57 minutes ago, chainarong said:

Demoray is but a dirty word,  take Oz as an example,  besides having a group of <deleted> elected, it has about as much in common with democray as China, all government departments are linked , they can spy on you at anytime,  check your bank or tax records without your knowledge, they know when you leave the country and return and filling in all the forms for the pension , you'd think you've spent all your working life defrauding the government, Democracy what's that. 

Bizarre.

 

Two posters agreed with you.

 

Something to do with the lead water pipes over there I would expect.

[ballpoint]

38 minutes ago, cmsally said:

Must admit, I have been doing a fair bit of planning over the past 10 years sensing this sort of stuff was coming along.

It is going to get worse overall for the Thais and as a foreigner with options it is your duty to yourself to make sure you don't get dragged down as well.

Sorry if that sounds harsh but the Thailand of today compared to the one I first saw almost 30 years ago is a much harsher place.

But, is Thailand any harsher than 1973, or 1976, or 1992, or 2010?  Government wise, today and 30 years ago aren't so different.  Back then the unelected Prem was in charge.  When elections were held, in 1989, a corrupt government was installed, which was removed by a coup in 1991, followed by an appointed civilian administration, (which, ironically was arguably the best and fairest the country has ever had). When elections were held, a corrupt government was installed, followed by a number of others, the last of which was removed by a coup in 2006, followed by an appointed administration, followed by corrupt governments, followed by a coup, followed by a self appointed administration... 

 

Around it goes.  Chatichai Choonhaven was firmly on the military side in the '70s, overthrown by a coup in the '90s, his party then sided with Suchinda Kraprayoon, the coup maker.  Chamlong Srimuang was also firmly on the military side in the '70s, became the main coup opponent in the '90s.  Thaksin Shinawatra began politics allied to Chamlong in the '90s, formed a coalition with the coup supporting parties in the '00s before absorbing most of them into his own party.  Pallop Pinmanee was a key figure in a number of coups, later joined the PAD fighting against Thaksin, left them because they wouldn't support his violent methods and joined the UDD, fighting for Thaksin.  Ended up as an advisor to the Yingluck Shinawatra government.  Sonthi Boonyaratglin lead a coup overthrowing Thaksin in 2006, formed a political party and joined Thaksin's coalition in 2011.  All the starry eyed talk on here about good and bad governments and ideologies in Thailand is hogwash.  Elected / non-elected, they're all trying to wring as much out of the country as they can while their noses are in the trough, and will do all it takes to get their noses in that position.

 

If talking about life in general however, then sadly the whole world is a much harsher place than it was 30 years ago.

[HalfLight]

The activists and others only 'suspect' foul play?

 

I'd say that was a racing certainty, and how about the police higher-ups who ordered the police to attend? They don't know?

 

BS

 

Mushroom governance at its very finest. Someone's taking care of business: their own business, not the country's business.

[dcnx]

2 hours ago, Eligius said:

And the bulk of the Thais - nearly 70 million of them - seem just to say: 'Mai ben rai. What soap is on TV tonight? Oh, let's take a selfie of me and my meal. But oh look - there is a General coming along, a Government Grown-Up - let's all get down on our knees and wai  and show that we are good, obedient Thais!'

 

 

 

They got the government they deserve.

 

Their society is built on groveling, being obedient to those who rule them, and pretending not to be bothered by anything. Their “mai pen rai” attitude has done them in. What you see now is the result of that. 

 

Perhaps one of these days the majority of them will tire of this and do something about it. If not, they can expect more of this.

 

 

[ratcatcher]

22 minutes ago, monkfish said:

It's not really in the path of the Sky Train which you can see in the photos.

I believe the elevated roadway is the Ram Intra to Chaeng Wattana overpass for vehicle traffic. There's no Skytrain there.

The monument is/was in the "Laksi Monument roundabout.

[NCC1701A]

3 minutes ago, dcnx said:

I’m looking forward to the day when they hunt down the IPs of the outspoken users here.

[spidermike007]

Most of us are hoping for a miracle come election time. I have no idea who it would be, nor what party. But it barely matters at this stage. Getting rid of the obnoxious army, and Prayuth is the utmost concern. I do believe he is despised by most, and that few want him to remain. Therefore I say, get out. Get out now. You are not wanted. You are not liked. You are not popular, and you are not needed. Your four years is enough. You have wreaked enough destruction upon your nation. Admit it. The task was way, way over your head, you are incompetent, and you did and continue to do, a poor job.

[HAKAPALITA]

7 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

Most of us are hoping for a miracle come election time. I have no idea who it would be, nor what party. But it barely matters at this stage. Getting rid of the obnoxious army, and Prayuth is the utmost concern. I do believe he is despised by most, and that few want him to remain. Therefore I say, get out. Get out now. You are not wanted. You are not liked. You are not popular, and you are not needed. Your four years is enough. You have wreaked enough destruction upon your nation. Admit it. The task was way, way over your head, you are incompetent, and you did and continue to do, a poor job.

Yeh, we want the Thief Back

[ParadiseLost]

2 hours ago, Lacessit said:

These are only symbols. For all their faults, democracy was extinguished when the Shinawatras were booted out.

More like when they were voted in...

 

Edited January 5, 2019 by ParadiseLost

[monkfish]

18 minutes ago, ratcatcher said:

I believe the elevated roadway is the Ram Intra to Chaeng Wattana overpass for vehicle traffic. There's no Skytrain there.

The monument is/was in the "Laksi Monument roundabout.

The Ram Intra to Chaeng Wattana overpass which is still under construction as in the Photo?

[Odysseus123]

14 minutes ago, HAKAPALITA said:

Yeh, we want the Thief Back

Sure.Geez you're good.

[HalfLight]

31 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

Most of us are hoping for a miracle come election time. I have no idea who it would be, nor what party. But it barely matters at this stage. Getting rid of the obnoxious army, and Prayuth is the utmost concern. I do believe he is despised by most, and that few want him to remain. Therefore I say, get out. Get out now. You are not wanted. You are not liked. You are not popular, and you are not needed. Your four years is enough. You have wreaked enough destruction upon your nation. Admit it. The task was way, way over your head, you are incompetent, and you did and continue to do, a poor job.

 

I only wish he was smart enough to read what you write. But I really don't think he is. He was handed this poison chalice and was promised a seat on the Privy Council by someone who thought he was going to remain in effective charge of the country. That dream has gone in a puff of smoke already. Incompetence will always become obvious and that's what happened to this guy while he was focused on what will happen tomorrow instead of focusing on what he will do today that isn't just more BS.

 

Personally I think I have about as much sympathy for him as you do.

 

 

 

 

[cmsally]

53 minutes ago, ballpoint said:

But, is Thailand any harsher than 1973, or 1976, or 1992, or 2010?  Government wise, today and 30 years ago aren't so different.  Back then the unelected Prem was in charge.  When elections were held, in 1989, a corrupt government was installed, which was removed by a coup in 1991, followed by an appointed civilian administration, (which, ironically was arguably the best and fairest the country has ever had). When elections were held, a corrupt government was installed, followed by a number of others, the last of which was removed by a coup in 2006, followed by an appointed administration, followed by corrupt governments, followed by a coup, followed by a self appointed administration... 

 

Around it goes.  Chatichai Choonhaven was firmly on the military side in the '70s, overthrown by a coup in the '90s, his party then sided with Suchinda Kraprayoon, the coup maker.  Chamlong Srimuang was also firmly on the military side in the '70s, became the main coup opponent in the '90s.  Thaksin Shinawatra began politics allied to Chamlong in the '90s, formed a coalition with the coup supporting parties in the '00s before absorbing most of them into his own party.  Pallop Pinmanee was a key figure in a number of coups, later joined the PAD fighting against Thaksin, left them because they wouldn't support his violent methods and joined the UDD, fighting for Thaksin.  Ended up as an advisor to the Yingluck Shinawatra government.  Sonthi Boonyaratglin lead a coup overthrowing Thaksin in 2006, formed a political party and joined Thaksin's coalition in 2011.  All the starry eyed talk on here about good and bad governments and ideologies in Thailand is hogwash.  Elected / non-elected, they're all trying to wring as much out of the country as they can while their noses are in the trough, and will do all it takes to get their noses in that position.

 

If talking about life in general however, then sadly the whole world is a much harsher place than it was 30 years ago.

The politics has certainly had its ups and downs and any brief window of opportunity for a more democratic government seems to have pretty much passed.

The whole situation has been exacerbated by the increased centralization , eradication of the middle class and the concentration of economic powers into fewer hands.

So when talking about " harsher" it is not purely politics; it is the whole level of concentration of bureaucracy and economic power. 

This in turn will have repercussions for the populace regarding living standards, level of debt and general mental wellbeing.

[DrTuner]

3 hours ago, Eligius said:

And the bulk of the Thais - nearly 70 million of them - seem just to say: 'Mai ben rai. What soap is on TV tonight? Oh, let's take a selfie of me and my meal. But oh look - there is a General coming along, a Government Grown-Up - let's all get down on our knees and wai  and show that we are good, obedient Thais!'

It's a clear case of somnamnaa. Zero sympathy for cowards. At least some are resisting.

[metisdead]

A post commenting on moderation has been removed as well as the subsequent replies. 

[HalfLight]

35 minutes ago, Odysseus123 said:

True-but I meant it seriously and the post was not aimed at you..

 

This is 'Sakdina' country-none of them are free.

You got that right, though some would not agree. But then someone here reckoned his maid and his gardener both speak 4 languages and are highly educated and intelligent.

 

Which is why they're his maid and his gardener I expect.

 

 

 

[HalfLight]

55 minutes ago, dcnx said:

They got the government they deserve.

 

Their society is built on groveling, being obedient to those who rule them, and pretending not to be bothered by anything. Their “mai pen rai” attitude has done them in. What you see now is the result of that. 

 

Perhaps one of these days the majority of them will tire of this and do something about it. If not, they can expect more of this.

 

 

 

And that, I'm afraid is what will happen, because the alternative would require imagination and education, and both of those they do not have, nor will have in my lifetime I suspect.

[KhunProletariat]

As if Thailand ever had real democracy to begin with.

 

What a joke.

 

KP.

[scorecard]

1 hour ago, dcnx said:

They got the government they deserve.

 

Their society is built on groveling, being obedient to those who rule them, and pretending not to be bothered by anything. Their “mai pen rai” attitude has done them in. What you see now is the result of that. 

 

Perhaps one of these days the majority of them will tire of this and do something about it. If not, they can expect more of this.

 

 

 

But what's badly needed beforehand is much better education regarding civil society, the value of working towards a civil society, the real meaning of democracy and how to built it and protect it and how voting should take place so it's free and fair, and the importance of free and fair and fully understand that political parties should have a serious specific manifesto which has good value and clearly aims to develop the country and develop better education and opportunities and build better acceptance of 'the rule of law' and equal justice for all.

 

I'm afraid until there's big and visible progress on all of the above then no progress, confusion and corruption in politics and vote buying will continue as is.  Sad.

 

[jayboy]

4 hours ago, darksidedog said:

Removing symbols of democracy in the wee dark hours hoping no one will notice is a disgraceful action. I am mightily surprised that none of the campaigning parties is holding actions such as this, and the earlier disappearing 1932 plaque up to the light and proclaiming the obvious. The Junta does not like, want, or seem willing to permit Thailand to have democracy in the future, and obviously wishes to remove all trace of its existence in the past. This is clear evidence of what Prayut and friends represent.

Several errors here

 

1. The perpetrators couldn't care less whether the removal is noticed. In fact, its removal is meant to send a signal.

 

2. The campaigning parties won't mention the subject because they are terrified of the consequences. I don't blame them

 

3. The Junta is the agent of the reactionary forces, not really a prime mover in its own right.

 

4. Prayuth would not have authorized this action, and indeed may have been unaware of it.

 

5. As to 4 above, one can see other signs of a lack of coordination between power centres. 

[Eligius]

1 hour ago, spidermike007 said:

Most of us are hoping for a miracle come election time. I have no idea who it would be, nor what party. But it barely matters at this stage. Getting rid of the obnoxious army, and Prayuth is the utmost concern. I do believe he is despised by most, and that few want him to remain. Therefore I say, get out. Get out now. You are not wanted. You are not liked. You are not popular, and you are not needed. Your four years is enough. You have wreaked enough destruction upon your nation. Admit it. The task was way, way over your head, you are incompetent, and you did and continue to do, a poor job.

Mike, you are being far, far too mealy-mouthed and generous in your assessment of Prayut (you say he has done a 'poor job' - only 'poor' - really, truly?!).

 

But then, if we said what we REALLY think - we would be banned from Thaivisa - and Thailand - forever!

 

 

 

Edited January 5, 2019 by Eligius

[Eric Loh]

35 minutes ago, KhunProletariat said:

As if Thailand ever had real democracy to begin with.

 

What a joke.

 

KP.

We almost had a chance at real democracy  with citizens direct and participatory involvement. We even have citizens initiatives in the form of public opinion of major projects. Not perfect but still a template in which all citizens have the possibility and the right to participate in the decisions that affect their lives and communities. BUT the elites and military fear losing power, dominance and the treasure cove. So they plotted and plotted numerous times to sabotage real democracy and entrenching their superiority and governance more than elected governments. They are the problem and obstacle to real democracy. 

 

[Hank Gunn]

1 hour ago, HAKAPALITA said:

Yeh, we want the Thief Back

Which one?

[Hank Gunn]

2 hours ago, ballpoint said:

But, is Thailand any harsher than 1973, or 1976, or 1992, or 2010?  Government wise, today and 30 years ago aren't so different.  Back then the unelected Prem was in charge.  When elections were held, in 1989, a corrupt government was installed, which was removed by a coup in 1991, followed by an appointed civilian administration, (which, ironically was arguably the best and fairest the country has ever had). When elections were held, a corrupt government was installed, followed by a number of others, the last of which was removed by a coup in 2006, followed by an appointed administration, followed by corrupt governments, followed by a coup, followed by a self appointed administration... 

 

Around it goes.  Chatichai Choonhaven was firmly on the military side in the '70s, overthrown by a coup in the '90s, his party then sided with Suchinda Kraprayoon, the coup maker.  Chamlong Srimuang was also firmly on the military side in the '70s, became the main coup opponent in the '90s.  Thaksin Shinawatra began politics allied to Chamlong in the '90s, formed a coalition with the coup supporting parties in the '00s before absorbing most of them into his own party.  Pallop Pinmanee was a key figure in a number of coups, later joined the PAD fighting against Thaksin, left them because they wouldn't support his violent methods and joined the UDD, fighting for Thaksin.  Ended up as an advisor to the Yingluck Shinawatra government.  Sonthi Boonyaratglin lead a coup overthrowing Thaksin in 2006, formed a political party and joined Thaksin's coalition in 2011.  All the starry eyed talk on here about good and bad governments and ideologies in Thailand is hogwash.  Elected / non-elected, they're all trying to wring as much out of the country as they can while their noses are in the trough, and will do all it takes to get their noses in that position.

 

If talking about life in general however, then sadly the whole world is a much harsher place than it was 30 years ago.

Excellent post! This should be required reading for everyone before they post on “good” or “bad” governments or who was better.

 

Until the metaphor of pigs at the trough is fully understood, and the extent to which it applies to all those at the top, regardless of political party affiliation, you’re only posting based on personal preferences and not based on “facts on the ground”.

[jak2002003]

45 minutes ago, scorecard said:

 

But what's badly needed beforehand is much better education regarding civil society, the value of working towards a civil society, the real meaning of democracy and how to built it and protect it and how voting should take place so it's free and fair, and the importance of free and fair and fully understand that political parties should have a serious specific manifesto which has good value and clearly aims to develop the country and develop better education and opportunities and build better acceptance of 'the rule of law' and equal justice for all.

 

I'm afraid until there's big and visible progress on all of the above then no progress, confusion and corruption in politics and vote buying will continue as is.  Sad.

 

What, like the democracy we have in the UK and America?  Think we are just as much mess with the UK government ruining our economy and industry coming out of Europe, and the dumb raciest bully boy Trump in America?  We only have 2 parties to choose from and they are both basically identical apart from their names.  The don't care about people, only power and money and most of the politicians are not in the real world are delusional, full of self importance and corruption... so not much different to here.

 

 

[scorecard]

21 minutes ago, jak2002003 said:

What, like the democracy we have in the UK and America?  Think we are just as much mess with the UK government ruining our economy and industry coming out of Europe, and the dumb raciest bully boy Trump in America?  We only have 2 parties to choose from and they are both basically identical apart from their names.  The don't care about people, only power and money and most of the politicians are not in the real world are delusional, full of self importance and corruption... so not much different to here.

 

 

I didn't quote UK and US as examples, you did.

 

Students can be taught, with good details what the concepts are etc., and this is my point. 

 

[Oziex1]

I suspect both of these symbols of freedom have been ordered removed by one who resides in the heart of the beast. 

[scorecard]

47 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

We almost had a chance at real democracy  with citizens direct and participatory involvement. We even have citizens initiatives in the form of public opinion of major projects. Not perfect but still a template in which all citizens have the possibility and the right to participate in the decisions that affect their lives and communities. BUT the elites and military fear losing power, dominance and the treasure cove. So they plotted and plotted numerous times to sabotage real democracy and entrenching their superiority and governance more than elected governments. They are the problem and obstacle to real democracy. 

 

 

"We almost had a chance at real democracy  with citizens direct and participatory involvement."

 

Is that your first attempt at mother of all joke for 2019...

 

 

[Odysseus123]

6 minutes ago, HAKAPALITA said:

Read their old posts, bunch of malcontents generally.Never made it anywhere.

I was referring to you-which you know very well-but 'jak 1,367,928' would fit the bill.

 

Still..it;s nice to have a pet troll lurking under the bridge-makes it kinda grimm as they say...

Edited January 5, 2019 by Odysseus123

[Odysseus123]

29 minutes ago, jak2002003 said:

What, like the democracy we have in the UK and America?  Think we are just as much mess with the UK government ruining our economy and industry coming out of Europe, and the dumb raciest bully boy Trump in America?  We only have 2 parties to choose from and they are both basically identical apart from their names.  The don't care about people, only power and money and most of the politicians are not in the real world are delusional, full of self importance and corruption... so not much different to here.

 

 

Nonsense.

 

Good Thai apologist post tho'.