Britons would now vote to stay in EU, want second referendum: poll

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Basil B said:

And I am looking forward to the value of my pension pot recovering when the value of British companies recover after this Brexit farce is finally killed off (probably next Friday when May writes to Tusk withdrawing Article 50)

That's the most positive post on these threads yet ????

 

Does May have the power to withdraw A50 by herself? 

[AlexRich]

Just now, oilinki said:

That's the most positive post on these threads yet ????

 

Does May have the power to withdraw A50 by herself? 

The expectation is that it will be extended after May’s deal is voted down next week. Then we might see some cross party cooperation that will lead to some kind of outcome ... unlikely to be no deal. 

[welovesundaysatspace]

2 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

on another thread, the user @oilinki just pointed out

that there is a piece of statute in UK saying that UK will leave EU on 29/3

 

can A50 just be withdrawn like snap?

what does the text of statute allow for?

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, oilinki said:

That's the most positive post on these threads yet ????

 

Does May have the power to withdraw A50 by herself? 

Isn’t it written in law that the U.K. will leave on that date? 

[Basil B]

1 minute ago, oilinki said:

That's the most positive post on these threads yet ????

 

Does May have the power to withdraw A50 by herself? 

May wrote the letter invoking Article 50,  am uncertain weather she can as PM or as head of HM GOV, but if it is HM GOV then she could kick out the protagonists and replace them with remainers. 

[melvinmelvin]

3 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

 

Isn’t it written in law that the U.K. will leave on that date? 

yes,

that has been my understanding, but I have not seen the text of the law

maybe UK gov can just revoke A50 or maybe not

 

the actual text of the statute must be looked into

 

but,

of course, parliament could, of course, alter that piece of legislation if they so want

 

 

 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

The expectation is that it will be extended after May’s deal is voted down next week. Then we might see some cross party cooperation that will lead to some kind of outcome ... unlikely to be no deal. 

Extension is much more difficult for UK to gain as it requires that all the rest 27 countries would agree to it. They are not going to do so, unless UK is going through general elections or new referendum. 

 

Withdrawal however is much easier for UK to do. European justice decided that UK can do it by itself, without asking permission from the rest of the club. 

 

But there is the legal requirements inside UK. If I recall correctly, Brexit was written to UK law and therefore to change the law, requires parlament to change the law. 

 

That's why I asked if May can withdraw the A50 by herself. Perhaps there is some legal ways for her to do so, but I still think that it has to go through the parliament and to be written as law, which overwrite the earlier law. 

 

I don't know. These are just conclusions of bits and pieces I have collected while watching Brexit to go forward. 

[Basil B]

5 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

 

Isn’t it written in law that the U.K. will leave on that date? 

That could probable be amended with an with an amendment nullifying it. (secondary Legislation)

[baboon]

1 minute ago, AlexRich said:

The expectation is that it will be extended after May’s deal is voted down next week. Then we might see some cross party cooperation that will lead to some kind of outcome ... unlikely to be no deal. 

But will the EU agree? They must surely be tiring of this nonsense and aware of the whole damn thing just going round in circles. Another year granted (say), another year of parliament prattling on and chasing its tail. The outcome? Nothing, yet again.

Were I not British, I would want to be telling us just to p!ss off by now...

[Guest]

1 minute ago, baboon said:

Were I not British, I would want to be telling us just to p!ss off by now...

Honesty. I like honesty, with a tad of humour added to it ????

 

[welovesundaysatspace]

I realize now how absurd things are:

 

The UK will sign a deal that no one wants. 

Or it will leave without a deal which everyone strongly advises against. 

So it has to get an extension which it will not get.

Unless it agrees to another referendum. 

So it would have to withdraw from A50 which requires changing laws. And would mean another two years the same circus. 

 

Im pissing myself so absurd it is. 

[beautifulthailand99]

2 hours ago, bristolboy said:

Here's more on that:

 

Peter Hargreaves and Crispin Odey: 'Brexit won't happen'

Hargreaves Lansdown co-founder Peter Hargreaves and hedge fund veteran Crispin Odey have said they expect Brexit will not happen, despite both backing the Leave campaign prior to the 2016 referendum.

The pair told Reuters their pessimism stems from the Brexit deadlock in Parliament, which is set to vote on Prime Minister Theresa May's controversial agreement on Tuesday (15 January).

The Odey Asset Management founder has now amassed a position in favour of sterling, which he expects to bounce in the event Brexit is cancelled.

https://www.investmentweek.co.uk/investment-week/news/3069163/peter-hargreaves-and-crispin-odey-brexit-wont-happen

Whose Remoananing Now ! to the tune of whose sorry now

 

three cheers for speaker Bercow and a Sovereign UK Parliament !

[Basil B]

13 minutes ago, baboon said:

But will the EU agree? They must surely be tiring of this nonsense and aware of the whole damn thing just going round in circles. Another year granted (say), another year of parliament prattling on and chasing its tail. The outcome? Nothing, yet again.

Were I not British, I would want to be telling us just to p!ss off by now...

I quite agree unless there is positive step forward I would say the EU will not agree for an extension especially as most of the credible opinion polls indicate that if the Referendum was rerun Remain would win by a small majority... the polls have been consistent on this  from a few days after the Referendum to this day.

 

I think the EU should if asked for an extension make it conditional on another referendum.

Edited January 11, 2019 by Basil B

[melvinmelvin]

13 minutes ago, oilinki said:

Extension is much more difficult for UK to gain as it requires that all the rest 27 countries would agree to it. They are not going to do so, unless UK is going through general elections or new referendum. 

 

Withdrawal however is much easier for UK to do. European justice decided that UK can do it by itself, without asking permission from the rest of the club. 

 

But there is the legal requirements inside UK. If I recall correctly, Brexit was written to UK law and therefore to change the law, requires parlament to change the law. 

 

That's why I asked if May can withdraw the A50 by herself. Perhaps there is some legal ways for her to do so, but I still think that it has to go through the parliament and to be written as law, which overwrite the earlier law. 

 

I don't know. These are just conclusions of bits and pieces I have collected while watching Brexit to go forward. 

 

leave the necessary agreement by all 28 EU members to prolong the period aside

 

both prolonging the A50 period

and withdrawing A50

may conflict with the statute stipulating that the UK is leaving on 29/3

 

should be looked into

 

some footwork required here

 

 

 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

I realize now how absurd things are:

 

The UK will sign a deal that no one wants. 

Or it will leave without a deal which everyone strongly advises against. 

So it has to get an extension which it will not get.

Unless it agrees to another referendum. 

So it would have to withdraw from A50 which requires changing laws. And would mean another two years the same circus. 

 

Im pissing myself so absurd it is. 

You can add the complication of UK having general elections, which would probably allow UK to have 6 months extension to the A50.

 

That would mean 2-3 months of pre-election fight. 2 months of post election adaptation period.. and only after that, PM Jeremy Corbyn would say - nope, we don't want to say with the EU, simply because he personally don't want UK to be part of EU. He probably would want UK to be part of the Warsaw pact, but he missed his peak performance by few decades. 

 

As all the other options at this point seems either impossible or far fetched, the parliament might actually agree with the May's current deal.

 

That's not the end of the world however. That deal is only the withdrawal deal. The negotiations, the real negotiations of the future cooperation between EU and UK are still ahead of us. Anything can happen during that time. It's perfectly possible that UK will re-join the EU during the adaptation period. Who knows?

[Basil B]

7 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

Whose Remoananing Now ! to the tune of whose sorry now

 

three cheers for speaker Bercow and a Sovereign UK Parliament !

Bercow was right, he is the servant of the Commons not the Government and was clearly vindicated by the vote in favor of the amendment.

[baboon]

2 minutes ago, oilinki said:

That's not the end of the world however. That deal is only the withdrawal deal. The negotiations, the real negotiations of the future cooperation between EU and UK are still ahead of us. Anything can happen during that time. It's perfectly possible that UK will re-join the EU during the adaptation period. Who knows?

Try explaining that to the most militant faction of the 'Leave' wing of politics. They can't or won't understand it, due to the demagogues they follow, distracting from just that point.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Basil B said:

Bercow was right, he is the servant of the Commons not the Government and was clearly vindicated by the vote in favor of the amendment.

Could someone help me and go through what actually happened there? I watched some of the speeches and reports, but I really didn't understood what really happened, why it was controversial, why some MP's were against it  and what was the result?

 

 

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, baboon said:

Try explaining that to the most militant faction of the 'Leave' wing of politics. They can't or won't understand it, due to the demagogues they follow, distracting from just that point.

They don't want to understand, they have formed their own religion, which they think empowers them.

 

That's why the next best thing is to say that they represent the 5-7% utterly vocal and angry minority. The nutter minority we all have in our societies. Logic doesn't apply to them, voice of authority does make them crawl back to their caves. 

 

I have simply learned and copied the principles of the manipulators who were able to pull Brexit. It's not an accident if I sound a bit rude towards those folks. 

 

Repeat after me. Brexitteers represent only 5-7% of people. Very loud and angry people. Repetition really works. 

 

The key is to not to care of those 5-7% of extremist people. The key is to talk to the people, who might listen to them. The surrounding people are not brainwashed and they are capable to listen to the voice of logic and reason. They also probably need a bit of empathy, to cope with the change they are going to make. 

 

After a while the 5-7% of the always angry population, will be angry by themselves. They'll fight among themselves and therefore dissolve themselves after a while. 

Edited January 11, 2019 by Guest

[baboon]

3 hours ago, bristolboy said:

Here's more on that:

 

Peter Hargreaves and Crispin Odey: 'Brexit won't happen'

Hargreaves Lansdown co-founder Peter Hargreaves and hedge fund veteran Crispin Odey have said they expect Brexit will not happen, despite both backing the Leave campaign prior to the 2016 referendum.

The pair told Reuters their pessimism stems from the Brexit deadlock in Parliament, which is set to vote on Prime Minister Theresa May's controversial agreement on Tuesday (15 January).

The Odey Asset Management founder has now amassed a position in favour of sterling, which he expects to bounce in the event Brexit is cancelled.

https://www.investmentweek.co.uk/investment-week/news/3069163/peter-hargreaves-and-crispin-odey-brexit-wont-happen

I don't see that there is any cause for celebration at all for us who wish to Remain. Just gamblers seeking to cash in on human misery. I think it is difficult to believe their bets aren't hedged against us elsewhere.

[Basil B]

Just now, oilinki said:

Could someone help me and go through what actually happened there? I watched some of the speeches and reports, but I really didn't understood what really happened, why it was controversial, why some MP's were against it  and what was the result?

 

 

 

Quote

The prime minister said there should be “consistent interpretation” of the rules as she waded into the row about Bercow’s decision to allow Grieve to submit an amendment on a government motion that was intended not to be altered.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/10/theresa-may-surprised-john-bercow-allowed-brexit-amendment

Seems that this Government motion was not intended to be altered, but seems also there were no rules that said it could not be, Bercow went against convention but has been vindicated as the amendment was passed. 

 

This will have probably shortened this long running Whitehall farce by weeks...

[Basil B]

11 minutes ago, baboon said:

I don't see that there is any cause for celebration at all for us who wish to Remain. Just gamblers seeking to cash in on human misery. I think it is difficult to believe their bets aren't hedged against us elsewhere.

Yes, as it is Peter Hargreaves who profits whether my pension pot goes up or down. 

 

But there again he makes good predictions and if he says brexit is a dead duck swimming I would say he is right. 

Edited January 11, 2019 by Basil B

[fruitman]

The EU has already hired thousands of custom officers and transport companies hired loads of extra staff and so on. Large multinational companies already left London and moved to the mainland including all their employees. And so on...

 

So who's going to pay for all those expenses if the Brits suddenly wanna stay in the EU?

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Basil B said:

 

Seems that this Government motion was not intended to be altered, but seems also there were no rules that said it could not be, Bercow went against convention but has been vindicated as the amendment was passed. 

 

This will have probably shortened this long running Whitehall farce by weeks...

Thanks. I'm still trying to get my head around this. I'm not sure why I don't get it. It might be the Samsong or my lack of ability to cope with too many fancy words in a complex text. 

 

Does government motion mean same as a proposed new law?

 

1) Was there first at all a law, which was presented, by the government, to the parliament, to be approved?

 

2) MPs wanted to add something to the new law before approving it?

 

3) Adding new text to the law at this point has not happened before or at least not allowed before. 

 

4) The speaker of the house however allowed the added words or rules to be added to the law, if the parliament decided to do and vote so

 

5) The parliament voted for the new additions and it became part of the law, or was the law's enforcement voted at the same time, or is there going to be a vote of this new law later on?

 

Way too complicated without actually understanding how the UK parliament works and how it makes new laws ????

[anon676545345]

1 hour ago, bristolboy said:

What alternative world do you come from? It's big business and their Tory enablers who preach about how workers must upgrade their education and have only themselves to blame for their present wretched condition. And since it's the Tories who overwhelmingly back Brexit it's actually Brexit scum who are blaming working class people.

As for your economically clueless comment about lower wages during the economic crisis, do you think possibly that it's that very economic crisis that might have had just a little something to do with that?

 

The Tories back Brexit, what planet are you living on! there's a minority of conservatives headed by Rees Mogg who back Brexit the Tories are 'overwhelmingly' remain hence why they're doing such a good job of screwing up Brexit, they don't want to leave.

 

As for the financial crisis, the influx of foreign labour at a time when there were limited job opportunities meant lower wages, its supply and demand if an employer can pay an EU migrant less than a local to do the same job they will. I've worked with plenty of Polish guys, good people and good at their job, I've got no issue with them however if your trying to pay a mortgage and support a family your living costs are much higher than a migrant worker living in a shared house.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Chartist said:

 

The Tories back Brexit, what planet are you living on! there's a minority of conservatives headed by Rees Mogg who back Brexit the Tories are 'overwhelmingly' remain hence why they're doing such a good job of screwing up Brexit, they don't want to leave.

 

As for the financial crisis, the influx of foreign labour at a time when there were limited job opportunities meant lower wages, its supply and demand if an employer can pay an EU migrant less than a local to do the same job they will. I've worked with plenty of Polish guys, good people and good at their job, I've got no issue with them however if your trying to pay a mortgage and support a family your living costs are much higher than a migrant worker living in a shared house.

Is your sole purpose here to say "There is no need for action to cancel brexit as most MP's are against it anyway".

 

And to make British people to hate the rest of the EU population?

 

Is that your mission today?

 

[adammike]

1 hour ago, Basil B said:

I quite agree unless there is positive step forward I would say the EU will not agree for an extension especially as most of the credible opinion polls indicate that if the Referendum was rerun Remain would win by a small majority... the polls have been consistent on this  from a few days after the Referendum to this day.

 

I think the EU should if asked for an extension make it conditional on another referendum.

Or a general election.

[baboon]

10 minutes ago, Chartist said:

The Tories back Brexit, what planet are you living on! there's a minority of conservatives headed by Rees Mogg who back Brexit the Tories are 'overwhelmingly' remain hence why they're doing such a good job of screwing up Brexit, they don't want to leave.

 

Rees-Mogg, who tried to have May removed via a vote of no confidence? That same Rees-Mogg who now stands firmly behind her (but doesn't)?

And you like this backstabber?

Edited January 11, 2019 by baboon

[Basil B]

Just now, adammike said:

Or a general election.

They have no interest in a situation that is likely to create more confusion, in actual fact a general election would probably result in a hung Parliament, that would not resolve the issue.

[nontabury]

55 minutes ago, oilinki said:

Is your sole purpose here to say "There is no need for action to cancel brexit as most MP's are against it anyway".

 

And to make British people to hate the rest of the EU population?

 

Is that your mission today?

 

 

Where do you get that the Brits hate the Europeans. Especially as we are Europeans.

 

 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, nontabury said:

 

Where do you get that the Brits hate the Europeans. Especially as we are Europeans.

From British news and from the way British politicians talk. 

 

From the way you talk most of the time. 

 

We don't have a goldfish memory of 5 seconds. Therefore double faced talk doesn't really work.