Land sold "twice over"!

[JAG]

Some 15 years ago, I (well my wife) purchased a plot of land. The original piece of land had been divided into quarters. We bought two of the quarters, and built our house on this. A third quarter was sold, and a neighbour built a house. The final quarter was sold to a lady four years ago. She has a western husband but he does not live here, in fact I have never met him.

 

Because the land was beingdivided, we were told that the deeds would be produced after the process was completed - they are apparently due in June/July.

 

Today, the purchaser of the last plot, appeared and claimed that she was also the owner of one of our two plots - fortunately not the one on which our house is, but the one which forms about one rai in front of our house. She claims that the plot was sold to her four years ago.

 

It is strange that it has taken her four years to realise that we own the land, not the person who "sold" it to her. I cannot get to the bottom of her story but it seems that the original vendor has sold the land twice. Amazingly neither she (the purchaser) nor her ephemeral husband checked the land before  stumping up the cash. Fifteen years ago, when I bought it, mywife and I certainly did. We have a bill of sale (witnessed) confirming we bought the land. 

 

She wishes to clear the land and plant coffee (!). I told her it wasn't hers. The couple of goons she brought with her huffed and puffed, but backed down when I said I would  involve the police if they started cutting down trees etc.

 

Anyone any ideas - if necessary I would be prepared to let her take the matter to court - there is presumably some court or arbitration process?

[bluesofa]

The obvious question: Do you have a chanote or a Nor-Saw-Sam?

A bill of sale is not much use - as my wife's parent's discovered forty years after they meticulously held onto their receipt.

 

edit: Sorry, I see you say it is due this year - that's fifteen years after you bought it?

 

Edited January 7, 2019 by bluesofa

[poohy]

Regardless of sub division surely there would be chanote

 

i would have been very nervous for 15 years and even more so now!

[JAG]

16 minutes ago, bluesofa said:

The obvious question: Do you have a chanote or a Nor-Saw-Sam?

A bill of sale is not much use - as my wife's parent's discovered forty years after they meticulously held onto their receipt.

 

edit: Sorry, I see you say it is due this year - that's fifteen years after you bought it?

 

Yes apparently because the land was being split up, the new chanoots were to be drawn up when the process was completed. 

 

So no we don't have a chanoots, but neither does the woman who claims the land was sold to her, or the neighbour who bought the third  plot. That is why I suspect (hope) it will be a matter for the courts.

 

Interestingly, when she turned up, the two goons who came with her were bawling my wife's name (Noi) outside the house and n a distinctly threatening manner. The woman and her goons were rather surprised to see me. It was pure luck that I was at home - in fact the first thing she said was " Oh, you don't go to school today?"

 

That alone makes me smell a rat.

Edited January 7, 2019 by JAG

[bluesofa]

Just to expand on my in-laws story, mentioned above:

They bought a plot of land, built a house on it, and lived there permanently for forty years with no chanote (they were unaware of what one was).

 

Then they came to pass the land ownership onto one of their daughters. That's when they discovered they had nothing to say they owned the land.

In the end, a lawyer was employed. She used a law that said if you continuously occupied a plot of land for (I think) twenty years with no one contesting your occupation, you could effectively claim "squatters rights" and gain ownership - and therefore the chanote - that way.

They were successful in doing that - plus suing the original seller of the land (he still lives next door!) for not providing a chanote, and a cash payment for the hassle he caused. The court made him provide the chanote at his own expense.

[blackcab]

The person who owns the land is the person whose name is on the title deed (assuming this is not agricultural land in a village which has no issued title deed). If your name is not on the title deed, then you don't own the land.

 

I understand you have a have a Bill of Sale, but in terms of ownership, this is worth very little. In law, if the original, undivided land was correctly transferred to another person after you paid for the land, then you are in a very difficult situation, as ownership will pass to the person whose name is now on the chanote, and you will have to file a civil claim against the original owner who sold you the land. If that person is deceased or they now have no assets, you will spend considerable time in Court paying to resolve the situation, and you will not receive any compensation if the seller has no assets.

 

You will also be in a difficult situation if the land has been divided and sold on to someone other than you. Any other legally registered mortgage, sale with the right of redemption, usufruct or other encumbrance will also create problems for your claim of ownership.

 

You really need to go to the Land Office tomorrow and get a copy of the chanote to this parcel of land. I also urge you to get the situation regularised as a matter of priority.

[JAG]

I have done some further investigating. My wife has a document, issued to her, with her name on it, by the Land Office, confirming that she has purchased Two Rai of the plot.

 

Also, my wife tells me, the original vendor approached her this afternoon and demanded that she (my wife) returns one of our two Rai for the price we paid 15 years ago. Noi said no.

[bluesofa]

7 minutes ago, JAG said:

I have done some further investigating. My wife has a document, issued to her, with her name on it, by the Land Office, confirming that she has purchased Two Rai of the plot.

 

Also, my wife tells me, the original vendor approached her this afternoon and demanded that she (my wife) returns one of our two Rai for the price we paid 15 years ago. Noi said no.

Looks like all's well that ends well - apart from attempted intimidation.

Does your document look like this, it's a chanote, on cream coloured 'parchment' (the latest one after the Nor-Saw-Sam), gradually these  are being issued nationwide - well that's the Land Department's plan anyway:

 

[ukrules]

25 minutes ago, JAG said:

I have done some further investigating. My wife has a document, issued to her, with her name on it, by the Land Office, confirming that she has purchased Two Rai of the plot.

 

Also, my wife tells me, the original vendor approached her this afternoon and demanded that she (my wife) returns one of our two Rai for the price we paid 15 years ago. Noi said no. 

Sounds like the original seller wanted the land back and sent this person around with the morons to intimidate her into handing it over.

[CanuckThai]

1 hour ago, JAG said:

I have done some further investigating. My wife has a document, issued to her, with her name on it, by the Land Office, confirming that she has purchased Two Rai of the plot.

 

Also, my wife tells me, the original vendor approached her this afternoon and demanded that she (my wife) returns one of our two Rai for the price we paid 15 years ago. Noi said no.

Congratulations.  Whew, keep your amulet in a safe place, apparently it's working...  

[blackcab]

@JAG I am genuinely pleased that this is the outcome.

[ThomasThBKK]

Normally the subdivision takes 3 till 6 months, then a new chanote is issued. How the hell did it take 15 years? It doesn't make any sense... If i was you i would hire a real estate lawyer to make a due diligence on the whole chanote history asap.

Birth defects i a chanote can make your ownership invalid even if it's not your fault.

Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk

[scorecard]

Sounds like it's sorted, good.

 

To be honest I would be a little concerned that the 'coffee plants' lady might try it again.

 

So, just wondering if there is a process to get something like a court interpretation order or a document from the local land titles officer chief which would even confirm or 'enhance' your ownership proof.

 

Obviously not free but perhaps worthwhile looking at, but your choice of course.

 

When my Thai son was interested in buying 2 plots of land and house in a nice new moo baan here in Chiang Mai he asked his buddy, a lawyer, to check the chanut carefully (at that stage the many chanuts were in various private names, not in the name of the actual development company).

 

Son's lawyer buddy had a first look at the chanuts for the double plot my son was interested in and discovered it was not the latest chanut, it had in fact been sold to someone else (and not the development company). Son's lawyer then decided to search back regarding the five previous owners of the two plots to ensure nothing tricky, wrong etc., in the various ownership transfers. All was in order.

 

Then my son and his lawyer buddy contacted the actual current owner, who didn't even know the development company had a potential buyer. But quickly the actual owner indicated, in writing and witnessed he did want to sell.

 

Son's lawyer then went, with my son, with an appointment to meet the local land titles office chief to ask him to confirm who the owner was and whether there were any possible complications in transferring ownership of the the land to my son. LTO senior did some checking then said 'all OK'.

 

End of the 'process' son's lawyer asked the actual owner to personally come to the land title office, with my son and with the legal representative of the development company and all witness the transfer. All completed. 

 

Note: Son's lawyer had mentioned he didn't really trust the majority of development companies and was not happy with the idea of the development company lawyer coming to the actual transfer event with a supposed power of attorney signed by the actual owner.  

 

Later my son made a will using another lawyer who is a family friend. Son wanted to bequeath the two land plots and house jointly to his 3 daughters, the will lawyer said; 'step 1, let me confirm that the chanut is totally in order before mentioning it is son's will. My son asked why? His lawyer friend laughed and said 'too many fake / wrong / never updated chanuts in LOS'.

 

Bottom line - Twice trusted lawyers pushed for chanuts to be checked carefully before any further action.

 

 

Edited January 14, 2019 by scorecard

[JAG]

6 hours ago, scorecard said:

To be honest I would be a little concerned that the 'coffee plants' lady might try it again.

 

So, just wondering if there is a process to get something like a court interpretation order or a document from the local land titles officer chief which would even confirm or 'enhance' your ownership proof.

 

Yes, the 'coffee plants' lady, or to be more accurate, her husband (whom I have now met and who turns out to be a Dutchman) has announced that he will be presenting his claim to the land, to the Land Office, in May. This notwithstanding me showing him a copy of the bill of sale, for two rai, signed by the vendor. He says that he believes the vendors claim that she only sold one rai.

 

To put this into some perspective, here is the sequence of events:

In September 2003 (2545) my wife purchased two rai of land (part of a plot of just under 4 rai) for B85000. We made several attempts to obtain a chanot, but the vendor proved to be most uncooperative, I suspect because she was liable for a charge (and possibly tax) for the sale of the land, and the production of a chanot. After several attempts to obtain a chanot the Wiang Chai Land Office told my wife that she would have to wait 15 years. I was not a party to this, I was back in the UK.

 

The next year (2546) we built a house on this land, and started to cultivate the rest. We have lived and been in possession of these two rai for sixteen years now. At no point has the vendor challenged the fact that we had taken possession of two rai, and were building on and using it. This despite the fact that she lives about 600 metres away and must see our land on a regular basis.

 

The 'coffee plants' lady, or to be more accurate, her husband, is now demanding that we surrender one rai of this land to him. I have shown him the bill of sale, for two rai, signed by the vendor and which is deposited with the Land Office. He dismisses it, tells me that “a number of people” have told him that we only bought one rai. He has told me that he intends to take his claim to the Land Office in May. He says that he may take it to the Amphur Land Office (Wiang Chai) or he may go to the provincial office in Chiang Rai. He won't say which. He says he has dealings with them (Chiang Rai) over some farmland he has purchased. He says he “has documents” (he will not be more specific but I suspect that he has obtained the original chanot). He has effectively accused us of stealing the land (or one rai of it). Yet the vendor has never, until now, approached us, or reported any alleged theft to the police! This week, she (the vendor) turned up, with the 'coffee plants' lady, and made a great scene about how the terrible falang had stolen her land - sixteen years after it is alleged to have happened! When my wife asked her why she had not gone to the police sixteen years ago she started to shriek abuse at her.

 

It does appear that the 'coffee plants' lady has “been sold” the entire plot, and she (and one must presume her husband) bought it more or less unseen. I have heard the figure of B400,000 mentioned. The most cursory inspection would have revealed that there was a long established (15 years) house on the land, along with now mature trees.

 

He (the husband) has said that once the entire plot is registered in his wife's' name he will allow us to stay in our house, on one rai of land. He does however also say that he will take over our well, which is the primary water supply to the house! Frankly, I don't believe him, nor do I believe the cover story that he wants the land to grow coffee! His wife (and he when he is here) live in an old house, hard up against a busy main road, on the crest of a hill, where heavy lorries are changing gear and producing fumes day and night. Our house and land, however, is on a quiet gentle south-facing slope, with a very pleasant view over fields towards the mountains in front of Phaya Mengrai. It is probably the best situation in the village, and I am pretty sure that he wishes to build his own house on it. That is rather backed up by gossip around the village – he is “very rich” and looking to build a big new house! Interestingly, he also let slip that he intends to close off the soi which runs along the front of our land, and which is used by the local farmers to access their fields! This itself confirms my suspicion that he wants to build.

 

I am seeing a lawyer this week, and yes, if necessary and possible, will be trying to get some sort of court protection. The whole business has dreadfully upset my wife and daughter – they fear losing the family home. I am not quite so worried, although I must confess my expectations are based on the UK, where this fellow's claims would be laughed out of court. Of course, this may not be the case here.

 

Wish me luck!

 

 

 

Edited January 14, 2019 by JAG

[janclaes47]

21 minutes ago, JAG said:

This notwithstanding me showing him a copy of the bill of sale, for two rai, signed by the vendor. He says that he believes the vendors claim that she only sold one rai.

 

I notice that in your latest post there is no mention anymore about the document the land office has issued, which you mentioned in your earlier posts, only the bill of sales.

 

Is

[JAG]

4 minutes ago, janclaes47 said:

 

I notice that in your latest post there is no mention anymore about the document the land office has issued, which you mentioned in your earlier posts, only the bill of sales.

 

Is

It is written in Thai, stamped and dated, and attached to a copy of the bill of sale. I understand that it is an acknowledgement of the bill of sale.

Edited January 14, 2019 by JAG

[ThomasThBKK]

Doesn't sound too good to be honest...

 

Quote

This notwithstanding me showing him a copy of the bill of sale, for two rai, signed by the vendor. He says that he believes the vendors claim that she only sold one rai.

 

He's either in on the scam or an idiot. The land office could also be in on the scam, what u should do is. Take your lawyer and go to the next higher land office for the whole region and tell them whats happening.

 

And as for your lawyer, either use one u used before and u can trust or take a flight to Bangkok and go to an international or at least big company.

regional lawyers are often crooks and easy to bribe. 

 

 

Do you have anything registered on the Chanote, like a lease, usufruct....anything? If not uhm that might get a real problem.

 

if not the squatter rights might rescue your ass: 

https://www.tilleke.com/sites/default/files/2013-jun28-land-ownership.pdf

 

 

 

There's no way that guy is wealthy in any way, or he wouldnt start a stupid fight in a court case over 400 000 THB at a chanote he never background checked, maybe hes trying to steal your house tho... DO NOT LET HIM ON YOUR POSESSION. he might try to lock you out and change locks etc.

 

 

Lawyer up, lawyer up, lawyer up.... And don't expect stuff to work as in the UK here, Thai logic is everywhere - however this is a civil law case and most of thailands civil law is based on german law, so there's a bit of logic left.

 

 

Quote

It is written in Thai, stamped and dated, and attached to a copy of the bill of sale. I understand that it is an acknowledgement of the bill of sale.

Start a litigation case against the seller, sales contracts are normally enforceable...

 

Quote

he also let slip that he intends to close off the soi which runs along the front of our land, and which is used by the local farmers to access their fields!

 

 

You should have a right to use this road if its not a public road registered on the original chanote, thats how u normally make sure you cannot be cut off from your own plot of land.

 

Normally it says sth that Chanote X is allowed to access Chanote Y over a 3 metre long road and also allowed to use electricity, water etc from the parent chanote.

 

 

Edited January 14, 2019 by ThomasThBKK

[bluesofa]

5 minutes ago, ThomasThBKK said:

Doesn't sound too good to be honest...

 

 

He's either in on the scam or an idiot. The land office could also be in on the scam, what u should do is. Take your lawyer and go to the next higher land office for the whole region and tell them whats happening.

 

And as for your lawyer, either use one u used before and u can trust or take a flight to Bangkok and go to an international or at least big company.

regional lawyers are often crooks and easy to bribe. 

 

 

Do you have anything registered on the Chanote, like a lease, usufruct....anything? If not uhm that might get a real problem.

 

if not the squatter rights might rescue your ass: 

https://www.tilleke.com/sites/default/files/2013-jun28-land-ownership.pdf

 

 

 

There's no way that guy is wealthy in any way, or he wouldnt start a stupid fight in a court case over 400 000 THB at a chanote he never background checked, maybe hes trying to steal your house tho... DO NOT LET HIM ON YOUR POSESSION. he might try to lock you out and change locks etc.

 

 

Lawyer up, lawyer up, lawyer up.... And don't expect stuff to work as in the UK here, Thai logic is everywhere - however this is a civil law case and most of thailands civil law is based on german law, so there's a bit of logic left.

 

 

Start a litigation case against the seller, sales contracts are normally enforceable...

 

 

 

You should have a right to use this road if its not a public road registered on the original chanote, thats how u normally make sure you cannot be cut off from your own plot of land.

 

Normally it says sth that Chanote X is allowed to access Chanote Y over a 3 metre long road and also allowed to use electricity, water etc from the parent chanote.

 

 

The link provided re: squatters rights is the same one my in-law's lawyer used, mentioned in my earlier post (quoted below), although I incorrectly guessed the time frame was twenty years, the law seems to say ten years, which looks like it easily applies in your case JAG.

 

I'd assume the lawyer would want some documentary evidence of you living there? House registration (blue book) - which will show the date it was issued. Electricity and water bills in your (wife's) name, etc. Any builder's bill's.

Perhaps the pu-yai ban could get involved to confirm how long you've been living there?

I have no legal knowledge, these are all suggestions in the hope it could help your case.

 

"In the end, a lawyer was employed. She used a law that said if you continuously occupied a plot of land for (I think) twenty years with no one contesting your occupation, you could effectively claim "squatters rights" and gain ownership - and therefore the chanote - that way. "

[Rv Hawee]

Did your wife have a blue book for the house ?

 

You talk about 15 years ago and didn't get a Chainote.... Was at this time the ground be only a No Sor 3 ?

In this case the original owner couldn't sell it until he hold it for 20 (15?) years.

[maprao]

Is it in a village small town. Seek the Poyaabahn's (head) advice and assistance 

[JAG]

27 minutes ago, Rv Hawee said:

Did your wife have a blue book for the house ?

 

You talk about 15 years ago and didn't get a Chainote.... Was at this time the ground be only a No Sor 3 ?

In this case the original owner couldn't sell it until he hold it for 20 (15?) years.

Yes, we've had a Tabian Ban since the house was built.

As for your second question I don't know.

[ThomasThBKK]

If you don't know find it out ????

 

Take your wife and go to the land office, request copys of the Chanotes history, it should show a step by step upgrade to a chanote title and when it was done etc.

 

 

[bluesofa]

20 minutes ago, JAG said:

Yes, we've had a Tabian Ban since the house was built.

As for your second question I don't know.

I posted a picture of a Chanote (not a nor saw sam). It has the word "Chanote" right at the top (in Thai obviously).

Does it look like that? Or can you ask your wife if it's a Chanote or a Nor Saw Sam, or even perhaps another land document?

 

edit: The thing I missed regarding the Chanote: It has a map halfway down the page detailing the land. At the top the page the land size is listed in Rai, Ngan, Talangwa.

Again the numbers are in Thai script, but if you see that you can work out the size of the plot it covers.

 

edit2: If you can see the details, this will show you the Thai land size in metric: http://www.udon-thani-homes.com/english/thai-land-sizes-en.html

 

Edited January 14, 2019 by bluesofa
addendum

[Rv Hawee]

16 minutes ago, bluesofa said:

I posted a picture of a Chanote (not a nor saw sam). .../...

Yes. I din't think it was your because (bad news)

You have only half a rai, not 2 !

My wife just confirm it !

You have about 800sqm of ground, 2 gnan (2w400sqm) and 6 tarangwa (12 sqm)

[bluesofa]

5 minutes ago, Rv Hawee said:

Yes. I din't think it was your because (bad news)

You have only half a rai, not 2 !

My wife just confirm it !

You have about 800sqm of ground, 2 gnan (2w400sqm) and 6 tarangwa (12 sqm)

You misunderstand.

I posted that Chanote as an example to show the OP (JAG) what one looked like, in case he could use it to compare the document his wife has.

The discussion was trying to find out exactly what the land document is.

 

[Rv Hawee]

???? ???? Ok, i got confused by reading a little too fast, thinking you were the OP....

(all this farang have same names and same faces ???? ????... ) my apologizes.

I wish the OP have a good Chanot with the proper size noted (it's really helpful when you stay far from a lot and some neighbors try to "borrow" some of your place...)

[bluesofa]

Jag,

Any update on your ongoing hassles regarding the land and documents?

 

[JingjoDave]

JAG pushing up daisies ,, or in this case Coffee trees ?

[bluesofa]

4 minutes ago, JingjoDave said:

JAG pushing up daisies ,, or in this case Coffee trees ?

Ha ha! Well he still appears to be online - perhaps he's searching for coffee tree fertiliser?

[JingjoDave]

Are you sure it is JAG on line or the coffee lady?

 

Anyway ,,, a lesson for all about buying land without a "chanote" or whatever,,,, I'm lucky ( not) having land with 34 chanote's ,,  one of them is for a peice less than 11 square metres LOL