Stop tearing families apart based on earnings! Scrap minimum income requirement

[darren1971]

https://www.change.org/p/sajid-javid-stop-tearing-families-apart-based-on-earnings-scrap-minimum-income-requirement

[theguyfromanotherforum]

I don't understand. How can self employed income not count?

 

 

[sanemax]

5 minutes ago, theguyfromanotherforum said:

I don't understand. How can self employed income not count?

 

 

It states on the UK Gov website that self employed income is acceptable 

 

What counts as income

You and your partner can use:

• income from employment before tax and National Insurance (check your P60 or payslips) - you can only use your own income if you earn it in the UK
• income you earn from self-employment or as a director of a limited company in the UK - check your Self Assessment tax return

 

https://www.gov.uk/uk-family-visa/proof-income

[theguyfromanotherforum]

Yes. As it should be as it is a perfectly acceptable way to get a mortgage.

 

Something dodgy in op story.

[sanemax]

6 minutes ago, theguyfromanotherforum said:

Yes. As it should be as it is a perfectly acceptable way to get a mortgage.

 

Something dodgy in op story.

It also stated that she was working in the U.K as well and both incomes can be combined to reach that amount .

 

[ukrules]

Self employed in this case refers to unincorporated proprietorships, a sole trader.

 

If you incorporate then you're not in this class, you're a director.

 

Lots of people run small business in the UK with this type of informal company.

 

[theguyfromanotherforum]

33 minutes ago, ukrules said:

Self employed in this case refers to unincorporated proprietorships, a sole trader.

 

If you incorporate then you're not in this class, you're a director.

 

Lots of people run small business in the UK with this type of informal company.

 

 

I was a sole proprietor in Canada. It doesn't make any difference regarding financial matters.

 

Is it different in UK? I wouldn't think so.

[darren1971]

As long as someone is working and not relying on state benefits they should be able to settle with their spouse.

 

Someone living in central London with 2 children and a mortgage, earning £18.6k a year would struggle to support the family, someone living in Manchester with no children, in a house they have already paid for could comfortably support themselves on less than £18.6k... but they would be stopped from settling with their spouse... In the real world income in isolation is an unfair metric

[sanemax]

He says that his plastering business makes 18 000 a year , but its not clear whether he has people working for him and thus his profit may not be higher then 18 000 ,(if he has to pay wages out)

[darren1971]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/jun/10/immigration-rules-separating-thousands-families

[theguyfromanotherforum]

6 minutes ago, sanemax said:

He says that his plastering business makes 18 000 a year , but its not clear whether he has people working for him and thus his profit may not be higher then 18 000 ,(if he has to pay wages out)

 

If that's the case then he is lying in his post.

 

No one sane calculates profits before expenses. Your tax returns are your earnings. You either pocketed 18k or you didn't.

 

 

Edited January 14, 2019 by theguyfromanotherforum

[darren1971]

some UK average salaries, if this is your career you are excluded. If you have children the list would be longer

115. Catering and bar managers - £18,535

116. Legal secretary - £18,425

117. Landscape Gardener - £18,010

118. Sales supervisors - £17,812

119. Telephone salespersons - £17,549

120. Counsellors - £17,526

121. Chefs - £17,513

122. Butchers - £17,466

123. Undertakers / crematorium assistants - £17,414

124. Street cleaners - £17,402

125. Bakers - £17,231

126. Travel agents - £17,081

127. Veterinary nurses - £16,746

128. Senior care workers - £16,609

 

129. School secretaries - £16,366

130. Customer service operations - £15,334

131. Call centre workers - £15,206

132. Dental nurses - £14,788

133. Retail merchandisers - £14,738

134. Fishmongers - £14,299

135. Care workers - £12,650

136. Receptionists - £12,543

137. Teaching assistants - £11,916

138. Nursery assistants - £11,734

139. Beauticians - £11,618

140. Fitness instructors - £10,540

141. Retail assistants - £10,296

142. Hairdressers and barbers - £10,019

143. Cleaners £7,919

144. Waitresses - £7,554

145. Bar staff - £7,404

Edited January 14, 2019 by darren1971

[Lungstib]

Interesting to see that Thailand is not alone in being willing to evict a person and break up a family due to not having a big enough income.

[rasg]

Self employed do count but you need £18,600 before tax is deducted. The self employed have all sorts of allowances that are all taken into account before your income is taxed and I would think that the guy in the story has a turnover above £18,600 but he will be able to claim for a van (100% tax deductable), fuel if he uses it for his business and many other allowances.

 

There has to be a threshold and I think £18,600 is probably on the low side for a couple who will need to spend £8000 plus on visa fees, travel etc etc over five years. I think it's around £2400 extra if they have a child. Really? Somebody needs to tell me if they have a baby that it costs less than £50 a week to look after.

[darren1971]

6 minutes ago, rasg said:

Self employed do count but you need £18,600 before tax is deducted. The self employed have all sorts of allowances that are all taken into account before your income is taxed and I would think that the guy in the story has a turnover above £18,600 but he will be able to claim for a van (100% tax deductable), fuel if he uses it for his business and many other allowances.

 

There has to be a threshold and I think £18,600 is probably on the low side for a couple who will need to spend £8000 plus on visa fees, travel etc etc over five years. I think it's around £2400 extra if they have a child. Really? Somebody needs to tell me if they have a baby that it costs less than £50 a week to look after.

 

'there has to be a threshold' why?

[rasg]

For the simple reason that people will end up claiming from the government fraudulently if they don't have enough money to live on and who loses out? The tax payer, as always ends up footing the bill one way or another. I'm not saying the system is perfect. It's not.

[darren1971]

2 minutes ago, rasg said:

For the simple reason that people will end up claiming from the government fraudulently if they don't have enough money to live on and who loses out? The tax payer, as always ends up footing the bill one way or another. I'm not saying the system is perfect. It's not.

Well there is very little fact to back that up, the home office figures show that immigrants on average earn more, start more businesses and claim less benefits. 

 

As long as someone can support themselves without relying on state benefits and can supply a home then their spouse should be allowed to live with them, my wife will work when she gets here (harder than most of my staff do) and I imagine your wife does too... 

 

[darren1971]

[rasg]

There are many facts to back that up. You just choose to believe the bilge that they spout. Many who do come here end up on minimum wage or in the black economy and take far more out of the system than they put in. They have more kids and put a lot of strain on systems that are fit to burst. The police, education, the NHS, the roads. Pretty much everything and I'm not specifically referring to your wife or mine.

[steve187]

maybe he hasn't been self employed long enough, look at the case of the 'only fools' actor who was refused with a Thai wife.  but i can not see how a self employed person wanting to earn £18,600 can not do so, as he will tell the tax man how much he earns, if he says £20,000 on his tax return that's how much he earns.

[rasg]

I know of many Poles who live fairly close to me who live six to ten to a house. Many of them earn mimimum wage or less but as they are in the EU they claim help for rent, money for their kids. They used to get it and send it back to Poland. A lot work in the building trade paying no tax at all. My neighbour had an extension built a couple of years ago. A team of eight. One Brit, one Pole who could speak English and the rest, Poles with no English.

 

I know of at last half a dozen Thais whose visas have run out a long time ago and they work with family in the black economy. A local shop to me that sold many, many asian ingredients, prawns, fish and meat was raided a few months ago and three quarters of the staff were found to not have visas to work or be here. I think it's a £10K fine for each of them.

[darren1971]

10 hours ago, rasg said:

I know of many Poles who live fairly close to me who live six to ten to a house. Many of them earn mimimum wage or less but as they are in the EU they claim help for rent, money for their kids. They used to get it and send it back to Poland. A lot work in the building trade paying no tax at all. My neighbour had an extension built a couple of years ago. A team of eight. One Brit, one Pole who could speak English and the rest, Poles with no English.

 

I know of at last half a dozen Thais whose visas have run out a long time ago and they work with family in the black economy. A local shop to me that sold many, many asian ingredients, prawns, fish and meat was raided a few months ago and three quarters of the staff were found to not have visas to work or be here. I think it's a £10K fine for each of them.

You need to look at data... try to be more scientific to make better decisions.

11 hours ago, rasg said:

There are many facts to back that up. You just choose to believe the bilge that they spout. Many who do come here end up on minimum wage or in the black economy and take far more out of the system than they put in. They have more kids and put a lot of strain on systems that are fit to burst. The police, education, the NHS, the roads. Pretty much everything and I'm not specifically referring to your wife or mine.

'bilge they spout' - you mean H.M.R.C ?

 

Please let us know what data you are basing your assumptions on?

[7by7]

Why are some people bringing the EU into this? The UK's immigration rules for non EEA nationals are nothing to do with the EU. This case is nothing to do with the EU; Brexit will have absolutely zero effect on the Family Migration rules and the financial requirement for same.

 

I have a feeling that Mr. Duffy is not telling the whole story. Which is a pity, as it means the government can easily ignore this petition; which they will anyway. 

 

In his petition, Mr Duffy says that 

Quote

She recently had to leave Scotland and return to the US to apply for a spousal visa.

But from what he says later, she was in the UK as a student. Which means she could have applied to remain in the UK as his spouse, i.e. convert her student visa to a spouse visa, without returning to the US to do so.

 

Quote

My plastering business makes that, but the Home Office says it doesn’t count because I’m self-employed.

Which, as others have already said, is not true. Self employed income can be used to meet the requirement; see 9. Self-employment or Director or employee of a specified limited company in the UK of the financial appendix.

 

Plus, as she was in the UK as a student, Mrs. Duffy could work and so any income she received, employed or self employed, could have been added to his self employed income to reach the minimum.

 

Having said that, regular readers of this forum will know my opinion of the current financial requirement and the steps groups such as the All Party Parliamentary Group on Migration have taken to try and persuade the government to revert back to the previous, far more sensible and above all else fairer system.

 

For those who don't know what that was, a brief summery.

 

A couple had to show that after tax, NICs and deducting all fixed outgoings, rent/mortgage, loans etc., they had a net income equal to or more than the income support level for a British family of the same size; currently £114.85 per week, £5972.20 p.a, for a couple; plus extra if either partner is financially responsible for a child or children.

 

Unfortunately, in this situation, as in many others, governments, no matter their political persuasion, don't do what's right; they do what's popular. The vast majority of British people want all immigration made harder, not easier!

 

Petitions on the for profit site Change.org have zero effect. The 110364 people who have signed Mr. Duffy's should sign this one on the official government petitions site instead; at least then with over 100,000 signatures the government will have to respond and consider debating it in Parliament.

 

Unfortunately, Change.org wont allow me to make that comment and so direct people to somewhere which may have a chance, albeit a very small chance, of actually changing anything!

 

I am also concerned that Change.org asked me for money when I signed (I didn't pay, which may be why I couldn't leave a comment?)! Where does that money go?

Edited January 15, 2019 by 7by7
Addendum

[GinBoy2]

These kinda threads are always fascinating to me.

 

I'm American, especially in the Trump era we get portrayed as some anti immigrant xenophobic country. Yet in reality compared to most European countries we're pretty liberal when it comes to bringing spouses to the US.

 

Don't quote me on the absolute numbers, but when you file your support affidavit I think it's only an income of $24,000 or assets which could be liquidated up to $100k to qualify to bring your wife to the US, which only needs to be in place for 24 months.

 

Maybe we're not the anti immigrant xenophobes you'd all like to believe!

[BobbyL]

It is such a preposterous rule. I had it happen to a friend of mine with his wife from Cambodia. They had to spend nearly 10 months apart. 

 

[billd766]

https://www.change.org/p/sajid-javid-stop-tearing-families-apart-based-on-earnings-scrap-minimum-income-requirement

 

I tried to open the link but it came up completely in Thai and there was nowhere I could find to change the language.

[theoldgit]

4 hours ago, billd766 said:

I tried to open the link but it came up completely in Thai and there was nowhere I could find to change the language.

https://www.change.org/p/sajid-javid-stop-tearing-families-apart-based-on-earnings-scrap-minimum-income-requirement?lang=en-GB

[billd766]

2 hours ago, theoldgit said:

https://www.change.org/p/sajid-javid-stop-tearing-families-apart-based-on-earnings-scrap-minimum-income-requirement?lang=en-GB

Thanks for that link.

[rasg]

On 1/15/2019 at 11:45 AM, darren1971 said:

Please let us know what data you are basing your assumptions on?

It's called living life where I live and experience. Something you don't have a lot of yet.

[mshs]

On 1/15/2019 at 6:33 PM, GinBoy2 said:

These kinda threads are always fascinating to me.

 

I'm American, especially in the Trump era we get portrayed as some anti immigrant xenophobic country. Yet in reality compared to most European countries we're pretty liberal when it comes to bringing spouses to the US.

 

Don't quote me on the absolute numbers, but when you file your support affidavit I think it's only an income of $24,000 or assets which could be liquidated up to $100k to qualify to bring your wife to the US, which only needs to be in place for 24 months.

 

Maybe we're not the anti immigrant xenophobes you'd all like to believe!

Yes, ofcourse!

 

Isn't it ironic that we let tens of thousands people into the most prosperous nation on earth for nothing and a 3rd world country requires that you have $25,000 to live there.

Edited January 18, 2019 by mshs