Stop tearing families apart based on earnings! Scrap minimum income requirement

[darren1971]

1 minute ago, 7by7 said:

 

But if someone does have an income below £18600 pa and can afford all that; why should that person be denied the right to live in the UK with their partner?

 

There are ways and means. I was earning less that the equivalent amount in 2000, but thanks to my father's support, not least in providing accommodation for us for a very low rent, we met the adequate maintenance test.

 

Since 2012, that is no longer an option

I was previously self-employed with an income of only £10,000 a year but it included a 3 bed flat, all utilities, food and drink, council tax, a car, fuel and phones. My outgoings were zero. But I had to change to employed to be eligible.

[rasg]

https://www.ukmarriagevisa.com/new-ways-to-meet-the-financial-requirements-as-of-10-august-2017.html

2 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

But if someone does have an income below £18600 pa and can afford all that; why should that person be denied the right to live in the UK with their partner?

 

There are ways and means. I was earning less that the equivalent amount in 2000, but thanks to my father's support, not least in providing accommodation for us for a very low rent, we met the adequate maintenance test.

 

Since 2012, that is no longer an option

I'm not suggesting that there are not.

 

I found this when I was putting my wife's FLR together a couple of weeks ago. I can't find a Government source but it's on this link below:

 

https://www.ukmarriagevisa.com/new-ways-to-meet-the-financial-requirements-as-of-10-august-2017.html

[rasg]

14 minutes ago, darren1971 said:

ummm so how do 47% of the working population living on salaries/wages less than £18,600 survive

You tell me. I simply have no idea. One thing I do know is that they wouldn’t be bringing a Thai girlfriend back to the UK as a wife.

[darren1971]

3 minutes ago, rasg said:

You tell me. I simply have no idea. One thing I do know is that they wouldn’t be bringing a Thai girlfriend back to the UK as a wife.

Because you are basing your assumptions on your own experience, do you know what it costs to live in Manchester? (£635/month excluding rent). Nurses in Manchester are broke then and how about Cardiff, what about Birmingham... You would certainly struggle in Bath but not in Bristol 10 miles away. What if its a young person still living at home, most people are staying in their parents house longer now, and what about people who have paid off their mortgage and have opted to work part time now. You may well be broke on £18.6K but that is not a very scientific approach

[Isaanbiker]

On 1/15/2019 at 7:39 AM, steve187 said:

maybe he hasn't been self employed long enough, look at the case of the 'only fools' actor who was refused with a Thai wife.  but i can not see how a self employed person wanting to earn £18,600 can not do so, as he will tell the tax man how much he earns, if he says £20,000 on his tax return that's how much he earns.

There are several changes in 2019. Please see attached PDF file. 

self-employed-tax-allowance-changes.pdf

[Duffman88]

Hi, I'm also going through the settlement visa process myself at the moment.

 

I agree that the £18.6k is arbitrary but I think since it hasn't increased since 2012 it's fortunately becoming less onerous. For me the main problem will be finding the approx £3k fees in addition to all the other costs associated with moving (English lessons, driving lessons, kitchen equipment, warm clothes, flights etc etc... ahead of a possible village wedding in Thailand in the near future).

 

I'd be scared that if each application had to be scrutinised more carefully for affordability, the fees would be jacked up another £500 or so (or £1500+ across the various stages).

 

A lot of the figures quoted for salaries in this thread are years out of date. A quick google search shows that the median salary for full-time employment today is over £28k. Indeed working a 40 hour week on the new minimum wage of £8.21/ hour will get you over £17k so nearly there already. Perhaps if the future minimum wage meets the income threshold that will be deemed a more acceptable solution.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Duffman88

[darren1971]

6 minutes ago, Duffman88 said:

Hi, I'm also going through the settlement visa process myself at the moment.

 

I agree that the £18.6k is arbitrary but I think since it hasn't increased since 2012 it's fortunately becoming less onerous. For me the main problem will be finding the approx £3k fees in addition to all the other costs associated with moving (English lessons, driving lessons, kitchen equipment, warm clothes, flights etc etc... ahead of a possible village wedding in Thailand in the near future).

 

I'd be scared that if each application had to be scrutinised more carefully for affordability, the fees would be jacked up another £500 or so (or £1500+ across the various stages).

 

A lot of the figures quoted for salaries in this thread are years out of date. A quick google search shows that the median salary for full-time employment today is over £28k. Indeed working a 40 hour week on the new minimum wage of £8.21/ hour will get you over £17k so nearly there already. Perhaps if the future minimum wage meets the income threshold that will be deemed a more acceptable solution.

[Duffman88]

In fairness that is 2011, and is also for all employees, not just full time.

 

The figure I quoted was for 2018 full time employees - £28,677

 

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2018/may/12/salary-what-get-paid-talk-about-it-makes-brits-cringe

 

[7by7]

1 hour ago, Isaanbiker said:

There are several changes in 2019. Please see attached PDF file. 

self-employed-tax-allowance-changes.pdf 243.84 kB · 1 download

 All very interesting, but nothing to do with meeting the financial requirement by self employed people. Like employed income, the requirement is based on gross income before tax.

[KhaoYai]

2 hours ago, rasg said:

If anything £18,600 is far too low.

Rubbish! It shouldn't matter what your income is - it should depend on whether you can afford it or not. A guy on £50k could be skint whereas another on £18k may have plenty left over each month. And by the way, a lot of guys marrying foreign women and seeking to bring them to the UK are at an age where they don't have the outgoings you describe. Many have paid off their mortgages etc. hence they are able to travel and meet foreign women.

[KhaoYai]

5 hours ago, rasg said:

I don't agree with you.

Well that's strange RASG isn't it? You made a hobby out of disagreeing with me on T-UK, I wouldn't expect anything less from you here.

[rasg]

2 hours ago, darren1971 said:

Because you are basing your assumptions on your own experience, do you know what it costs to live in Manchester? (£635/month excluding rent). Nurses in Manchester are broke then and how about Cardiff, what about Birmingham... You would certainly struggle in Bath but not in Bristol 10 miles away. What if its a young person still living at home, most people are staying in their parents house longer now, and what about people who have paid off their mortgage and have opted to work part time now. You may well be broke on £18.6K but that is not a very scientific approach

No I'm not. I have family all over the place. I am not broke nor am I on £18.6k and my mortgage is less than £200 a month. As Duffman pointed out, 40 hours on the new minimum wage of £8.21 an hour is over £17k. I didn't factor a car into my list of things to pay for each month. I couldn’t be without one. The 18.6k is about right imho opinion and I wouldn't be surprised to see that figure go up.

 

18 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

Well that's strange RASG isn't it? You made a hobby out of disagreeing with me on T-UK, I wouldn't expect anything less from you here.

Why would I change my view from one forum to another? I have no idea who you are. Why would I when you must be using a different name on here? We will simply have to agree to disagree. Simples.

Edited May 7, 2019 by rasg

[7by7]

57 minutes ago, Duffman88 said:

A quick google search shows that the median salary for full-time employment today is over £28k.

 

40 minutes ago, Duffman88 said:

The figure I quoted was for 2018 full time employees - £28,677

 That figure, like every year's average earnings figure, includes the income of every employee. Those on minimum wage, Premier League footballers with an average salary for the 2018/19 season of £1.6 million pa (Source), up to CEOs like Sir Martin Sorrell who earned £48.1 million in 2017 (Source).

 

Whilst the figures produced by Darren1971,earlier are out of date and the proportion of workers earning less than £18,600 pa has been falling from the 47% in 2012, the latest figure I can find, 2015, still put it at 41% (Source). If it has continued to fall at the same rate that still means approximately a third of British employees do not meet the minimum earnings requirement. Not to mention the self employed.

 

1 hour ago, Duffman88 said:

Indeed working a 40 hour week on the new minimum wage of £8.21/ hour will get you over £17k so nearly there already.

'Nearly there' wont meet the requirement. 

 

Plus, the average working week in the UK is not 40, it's 32.2 (Source). 

[GinBoy2]

So this is just a curious American question.

 

For us it's $24K income or assets that could be liquidated 3x $24K, so if you owned a house with zero income you'd be good, and that requirement is only for 2 years.

 

Do you have the same option to use assets against a lack of income?

[7by7]

2 minutes ago, GinBoy2 said:

So this is just a curious American question.

 

For us it's $24K income or assets that could be liquidated 3x $24K, so if you owned a house with zero income you'd be good, and that requirement is only for 2 years.

 

Do you have the same option to use assets against a lack of income?

 No.

 

But cash savings above £16,000 can be used to reduce the amount of income required (although for some reason, not self employed income!).

 

Cash savings of £62,500 or above means no income is required.

 

The savings can be in the name of the applicant, the sponsor, held jointly or any combination of these and must have been in their possession for at least the previous 6 months.

 

Cash from certain assets, such as property or shares, which were liquidated less than 6 moths prior to the application can be used provided the asset concerned was in the possession of applicant, sponsor or both jointly at least 6 months prior to the application.

 

The requirement has to be met at the initial visa application, the extension after 30 months and the final application 30 months after that. Five years in total.

[GinBoy2]

8 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 No.

 

But cash savings above £16,000 can be used to reduce the amount of income required (although for some reason, not self employed income!).

 

Cash savings of £62,500 or above means no income is required.

 

The savings can be in the name of the applicant, the sponsor, held jointly or any combination of these and must have been in their possession for at least the previous 6 months.

 

Cash from certain assets, such as property or shares, which were liquidated less than 6 moths prior to the application can be used provided the asset concerned was in the possession of applicant, sponsor or both jointly at least 6 months prior to the application.

 

The requirement has to be met at the initial visa application, the extension after 30 months and the final application 30 months after that. Five years in total.

That is pretty onerous.

 

I can now appreciate why a lot of you guys are pissed.

 

It makes it a chicken and egg situation, if you have been living in Thailand, thereby having no UK income and then decide you want to repatriate.

That's an almost impossible situation to return together with your wife.

 

As an American living in Thailand I just had to declare my assets, obviously I didn't have a job or income, then when my wife's green card was approved we moved back together, then both found work

[7by7]

17 minutes ago, GinBoy2 said:

It makes it a chicken and egg situation, if you have been living in Thailand, thereby having no UK income and then decide you want to repatriate.

That's an almost impossible situation to return together with your wife.

 Indeed; unless

• you and/or your partner have £62,500 plus in cash savings, or
• your current employer in Thailand offers you a job paying at least £18,600 pa in the UK, or
• you have an acceptable source of unearned income such as a pension(s) totalling at least £18,600.

Otherwise you'd have to do what many returning ex pats have had to do. That is move to the UK alone, find a job paying at least £18,600 pa, be in that job for 6 months and then your partner can apply to join you.

Edited May 7, 2019 by 7by7

[7by7]

3 hours ago, rasg said:

https://www.ukmarriagevisa.com/new-ways-to-meet-the-financial-requirements-as-of-10-august-2017.html

I'm not suggesting that there are not.

 

I found this when I was putting my wife's FLR together a couple of weeks ago. I can't find a Government source but it's on this link below:

 

https://www.ukmarriagevisa.com/new-ways-to-meet-the-financial-requirements-as-of-10-august-2017.html

 These were incorporated into the requirement under Section 10. Exceptional circumstances.

 

Have a read of that; it aint easy to be treated as having exceptional circumstances!

 

Note that anyone who does succeed in this will be placed on the 10 year route to settlement rather than the usual 5 year one for family members.

Edited May 7, 2019 by 7by7

[Duffman88]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

 

 That figure, like every year's average earnings figure, includes the income of every employee. Those on minimum wage, Premier League footballers with an average salary for the 2018/19 season of £1.6 million pa (Source), up to CEOs like Sir Martin Sorrell who earned £48.1 million in 2017 (Source).

 

Whilst the figures produced by Darren1971,earlier are out of date and the proportion of workers earning less than £18,600 pa has been falling from the 47% in 2012, the latest figure I can find, 2015, still put it at 41% (Source). If it has continued to fall at the same rate that still means approximately a third of British employees do not meet the minimum earnings requirement. Not to mention the self employed.

 

'Nearly there' wont meet the requirement. 

 

Plus, the average working week in the UK is not 40, it's 32.2 (Source). 

The £28k is the median salary, i.e. the middle value if you ranked every salary in the UK from highest to lowest). 50% of the working population earn more and 50% less.

 

The median salary is not affected by those you mention who would fall well into the top percentile. The mean salary, which you get from adding every UK salary together and dividing by the number of UK workers is higher still because of the small number of people on very large salaries.

 

Also, the 41% figure is probably not reflective of the sample of people who meet their partner overseas and wish to bring them back to the UK as a lot of people in this income bracket are either:

(a) working part time while raising children - their partner is the main breadwinner.

(b) not making multiple trips to non-EU countries in a short period of time to develop a relationship.

 

So while I agree that a few people will be caught out (hopefully temporarily), I think the number of people actually affected by this will be nowhere near the stats given in this thread.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Duffman88

[darren1971]

3 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

Well that's strange RASG isn't it? You made a hobby out of disagreeing with me on T-UK, I wouldn't expect anything less from you here.

Rasg in one statement is saying people on less than 18.6k cant afford to meet and bring Thai wifes here and then he's saying he is on less than 18.6k but still lives here with his wife.... and then on other forums he's asking how to add her wages to his ILR because he doesn't meet the requirement on his own. By his own admission, he can't afford to live here with his wife

Edited May 7, 2019 by darren1971

[GinBoy2]

1 hour ago, Duffman88 said:

The £28k is the median salary, i.e. the middle value if you ranked every salary in the UK from highest to lowest). 50% of the working population earn more and 50% less.

 

The median salary is not affected by those you mention who would fall well into the top percentile. The mean salary, which you get from adding every UK salary together and dividing by the number of UK workers is higher still because of the small number of people on very large salaries.

 

You need to remember your HS math class.

 

People often confuse median and mean.

 

Median is the sum of everyone's salary divided by the number of inputs. Mean is just the mid point of highest to lowest.

 

There is a vast difference in the output of those calculations.

[darren1971]

still think it is daft to use income alone, the cities with the highest amounts of disposable income tend to have incomes at the lower end of the range. 

[Jip99]

6 hours ago, laislica said:

I can't agree.

 

That's called a Means Test.

They were banned years ago?

 

 

 

Much better than an arbitrary, and meaningless,  gross income figure of £18,600 .

[luckyluke]

Many people struggle to survive decently here in Thailand. 

 

I suppose when a Thai lady join her friend/husband, in the U.K. or wherever, she don't expect to struggle also there, far away from "home". 

 

The way of living from a visitor to Thailand, is often (very) different from the way he is living in is homeland. 

 

Many Thai ladies are not aware of this, or than sometimes too late. 

 

Of course "decently" is a relative concept. 

[Jip99]

This is not just about Thais/Thailand obviously.

 

 

But, gross income of £18,600 is required to support a wife in the UK. In Thailand only 40,000 Baht p.m. needs to be evidenced (£11,600 p.a.)

 

[luckyluke]

What's an average net result of 18600 ???? gross income? 

 

I ask because 40000 ThB has suppose to be net here in Thailand. 

[GinBoy2]

59 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

Many people struggle to survive decently here in Thailand. 

 

I suppose when a Thai lady join her friend/husband, in the U.K. or wherever, she don't expect to struggle also there, far away from "home". 

 

The way of living from a visitor to Thailand, is often (very) different from the way he is living in is homeland. 

 

Many Thai ladies are not aware of this, or than sometimes too late. 

 

Of course "decently" is a relative concept. 

That's a tricky one.

 

The two week millionaire syndrome can play into that big time.

 

It does fall into two categories I think.

 

1. There are the married guys who have been in Thailand for years. In that case their wife/gf pretty much knows what lifestyle they are moving to.

 

2. The girl (probably bg) who met during his vacation, see's him spending a wad of cash and has this idea that she's moving to the land of milk and honey. It's probably better than what she's leaving but nowhere near the Lakorn version of life she was expecting

[Jip99]

23 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

What's an average net result of 18600 ???? gross income? 

 

I ask because 40000 ThB has suppose to be net here in Thailand. 

 

 

It doesn't have to be 'net'.... it just has to be transferred from overseas every month - what you do with it after that (including transferring it out/back) is up yo you.

[luckyluke]

I can not live decently (my interpretation of decently) anymore in Belgium with the equivalent of 65000 Thb net, I am no owner anymore, so would have to rent just like I do here. 

 

I don't know if I people can live "comfortably" with that in the U.K., alone or with a partner. 

 

I can live relax here (no excess) with that amount. 

 

I am 70+, don't want to end my life in a kind of "misery". 

 

Of course "decently" "comfortably" "relax" "misery" are relative concepts. 

 

 

 

Edited May 8, 2019 by luckyluke

[Duffman88]

9 hours ago, GinBoy2 said:

You need to remember your HS math class.

 

People often confuse median and mean.

 

Median is the sum of everyone's salary divided by the number of inputs. Mean is just the mid point of highest to lowest.

 

There is a vast difference in the output of those calculations.

Nope sorry, you have it the wrong way round: