Brexit bedlam - May's EU divorce deal crushed by 230 votes in parliament

[Spidey]

2 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Portugal is a sensible country.

Yes, very nice out of season. Great food too. Not very child friendly though.

[tebee]

6 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

The majority of the younger generation rejected Brexit because they didn't have any life experience yet. They were heavily influenced by pro-EU teachers and lecturers and hadn't had time to form their own opinions. Who still holds the same political views they held as an 18 year old? We live and learn as they say...

Many youngsters were under the false premise that once we have left the EU we won't be able to travel or work in Europe. They didn't realise that we travelled around Europe quite easily before the EU project came about. 

They don't remember the UK being a true sovereign state, following rules made only by our own governing institutions. That concept was alien to them. 

They were generally more susceptible to project fear stories. I mean, they had still believed in the tooth fairy 10 years prior. 

 

But I've noticed a bit of a shift with the younger generation, listening to radio phone ins, and on TV etc. Perhaps because they've had 2.5 years to better understand the reasons for Brexit, and the shortfalls of the EU, and because many of the project fear lies have since been exposed. I don't think these youngsters would offer the Remain camp as big a swing in the vote as they had hoped. 

I think the reason youngsters ( and better educated older people) are much more pro-EU is that they've not been exposed to a constant stream of Anti-EU propaganda by the UK's tabloids.

Young people don't read newspapers and get their news from much more diverse sources.  

[dick dasterdly]

3 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

to revert to Plan-B for a while;

 

As I understand it, May has devised a Plan-B, even without Corbyn's help.

 

She has picked Plan-A out of the dust bin and wants to introduce a time limit on the Backstop if ever triggered.

She has held talks with politicians re this and presumably other ideas also.

 

Parliament has debated the plan, not very enthusiastic as I gather.

She has held further talks.

Soon off to Brussels.

More debate on Plan-B and vote tentatively scheduled for next week.

 

Any prospect of luck in these endeavours?

 

Barnier says deal on the table is the best ever.

Polish PM has aired that a time limit might be put on the Backstop.

(note, any fixes to the deal require all 28 EU members agreeing)

Mr Dahlberg, the Minister for EU matters in the brand new Swedish government says; NO, no limit on the backstop.

 

 

So,

what now?

 

 

 

 

I entirely understand your sentiments re. wanting to talk about the future - but at the moment we can do nothing other than wait and see what MPs decide.....

 

So there's little point in discussing 'what happens next' until MPs tell us what is happening next!

[dick dasterdly]

30 minutes ago, tebee said:

I think the reason youngsters ( and better educated older people) are much more pro-EU is that they've not been exposed to a constant stream of Anti-EU propaganda by the UK's tabloids.

Young people don't read newspapers and get their news from much more diverse sources.  

????

[theoldgit]

Insulting reply removed.

[Grouse]

"An official Labour Party amendment says that MPs should be able to vote on options such as the party's preferred outcome of a closer relationship with Europe, with a permanent customs union.

It also asks MPs to decide whether they should hold a further referendum on whatever Brexit plan is approved by the House of Commons."

 

This sounds sensible. Look at the options, decide and then have the decision ratified by the electorate. Works for me.

[melvinmelvin]

When is TM off to Brussels?

 

[Grouse]

20 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

When is TM off to Brussels?

 

I'll ask her

[melvinmelvin]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

I'll ask her

ok,

but her plan is to consult in Brussels before continued debate/vote next week?

 

at least that is my understanding, but I am just a looker on

 

 

[rixalex]

23 hours ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Funny how you feel entitled to speak for the electorate now. Or how do you know they had the expectation to leave no matter what including any type of deal and including a no deal? You don’t, so please don’t speak for the electorate. 

The electorate was told it was a one-off, once in a lifetime vote, to remain or stay, and that the decision would be final and that the government would enact whatever the people decided.

 

So when i say that the only known expectation that the electorate could have, was that voting to stay would mean we stay in the EU, and voting to leave would mean we leave the EU, I'm not so much speaking for the electorate, as speaking for anyone with a reasonably functioning brain and two ears.

[bannork]

7 minutes ago, rixalex said:

The electorate was told it was a one-off, once in a lifetime vote, to remain or stay, and that the decision would be final and that the government would enact whatever the people decided.

 

So when i say that the only known expectation that the electorate could have, was that voting to stay would mean we stay in the EU, and voting to leave would mean we leave the EU, I'm not so much speaking for the electorate, as speaking for anyone with a reasonably functioning brain and two ears.

But what does leaving really mean? No agreements on trade, services, goods etc before we leave? Wake up on March 30th and wonder what tariffs and market access will be like today?

 

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

ok,

but her plan is to consult in Brussels before continued debate/vote next week?

 

at least that is my understanding, but I am just a looker on

 

 

Her plan is to waste time and avoid finding a compromise.

[Grouse]

21 minutes ago, rixalex said:

The electorate was told it was a one-off, once in a lifetime vote, to remain or stay, and that the decision would be final and that the government would enact whatever the people decided.

 

So when i say that the only known expectation that the electorate could have, was that voting to stay would mean we stay in the EU, and voting to leave would mean we leave the EU, I'm not so much speaking for the electorate, as speaking for anyone with a reasonably functioning brain and two ears.

So you will be happy with a Norway deal.

[melvinmelvin]

6 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Her plan is to waste time and avoid finding a compromise.

 

if that is so,

TM is doing quite well then I gather

 

in particular with the aid of your so called sovereign parliament

which is quite incapable of grabbing the tiller and make decisions

 

 

[rixalex]

4 minutes ago, bannork said:

But what does leaving really mean? No agreements on trade, services, goods etc before we leave? Wake up on March 30th and wonder what tariffs and market access will be like today?

 

As far as the electorate's involvement in the decision making process goes, leaving simply means leaving the EU.

 

The electorate told the captain which direction they wanted to ship to sail in. That's it. It wasn't then up to the electorate to sail the damn thing.

[welovesundaysatspace]

24 minutes ago, rixalex said:

The electorate was told it was a one-off, once in a lifetime vote, to remain or stay, and that the decision would be final and that the government would enact whatever the people decided.

The electorate was also told they would get the cake and eat it, in the easiest deal of history. The electorate was further told that “no deal” is project fear. In fact, the electorate was told many many things. Which is why...

 

24 minutes ago, rixalex said:

So when i say that the only known expectation that the electorate could have, was that voting to stay would mean we stay in the EU, and voting to leave would mean we leave the EU, I'm not so much speaking for the electorate, as speaking for anyone with a reasonably functioning brain and two ears.

...the electorate that voted to leave did so with certain expectations, whatever those were for the single individual. To pickup your insults, “anyone with a reasonably functioning brain” understands that. There is a reason why Brexiteers use the term “leave in name only”, because they agree that certain expectations have been set, unfortunately they feel entitled to speak for the electorate what expectations that are. 

 

[bannork]

1 minute ago, rixalex said:

As far as the electorate's involvement in the decision making process goes, leaving simply means leaving the EU.

 

The electorate told the captain which direction they wanted to ship to sail in. That's it. It wasn't then up to the electorate to sail the damn thing.

But the captain jumped ship almost immediately as he realised he had no charts to negotiate the rocky passages ahead. So we're left with a ship of fools with no clear idea of where or what this promised land is.

[welovesundaysatspace]

8 minutes ago, rixalex said:

As far as the electorate's involvement in the decision making process goes, leaving simply means leaving the EU.

 

The electorate told the captain which direction they wanted to ship to sail in. That's it. It wasn't then up to the electorate to sail the damn thing.

Then you should be fine with a Norway or Switzerland model. Leave implemented, direction respected. Unfortunately, Brexiteers feel entitled to tell us what the electorate had in mind (and what not) when they voted leave. 

[tomacht8]

6 minutes ago, rixalex said:

As far as the electorate's involvement in the decision making process goes, leaving simply means leaving the EU.

 

The electorate told the captain which direction they wanted to ship to sail in. That's it. It wasn't then up to the electorate to sail the damn thing.

Obviously, it's not that simple.

But I like your Titanic analogy.

[Grouse]

20 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

if that is so,

TM is doing quite well then I gather

 

in particular with the aid of your so called sovereign parliament

which is quite incapable of grabbing the tiller and make decisions

 

 

The tiller may well be grabbed next week and may tied to the main mast and lashed!

[rixalex]

25 minutes ago, Grouse said:

So you will be happy with a Norway deal.

I don't care what the deal is called, as long as it results in Britain leaving the EU.

 

Not half in, half out.

 

OUT.

 

O-U-T.

[Spidey]

4 minutes ago, rixalex said:

I don't care what the deal is called, as long as it results in Britain leaving the EU.

 

Not half in, half out.

 

OUT.

 

O-U-T.

I think that you are going to be very disappointed.

 

DISAPPOINTED.

 

D-I-S-A-P-P-O-I-N-T-E-D.

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

8 minutes ago, Grouse said:

The tiller may well be grabbed next week and may tied to the main mast and lashed!

right ta,

will be interesting to watch

with a view to avoiding suffocation breath will not be held

 

[Grouse]

10 minutes ago, rixalex said:

I don't care what the deal is called, as long as it results in Britain leaving the EU.

 

Not half in, half out.

 

OUT.

 

O-U-T.

Norway is not in the EU

 

You want out; Norway IS out

 

We can all be picky. I want to be in. I don't want the Euro though.

 

Understand?

[welovesundaysatspace]

5 minutes ago, rixalex said:

I don't care what the deal is called, as long as it results in Britain leaving the EU.

 

Not half in, half out.

 

OUT.

 

O-U-T.

There were no halfs mentioned on the ballot paper. Only Brexiteers started to talk about half ins and half outs in a way to claim ownership of interpreting what the electorate’s expectations are. 

[tomacht8]

20 minutes ago, rixalex said:

I don't care what the deal is called, as long as it results in Britain leaving the EU.

 

Not half in, half out.

 

OUT.

 

O-U-T.

Do not forget to breathe.

Extremely important for the oxygenation of the brain.

Breathe in - out - in - out.

 

Hope that Brexit, with all the trouble that he caused, is not yet detrimental to public health. Would lead to additional spendings at the NHS.

Since the extra 350 million from the red bus are no longer enough.

[AlexRich]

8 hours ago, Loiner said:

Same sentiment, not changed years later




Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

Says the mastermind of Gallipoli ... another overrated politician.

[CG1 Blue]

5 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

why should dire times in the Eurozone result in EU offering concession re withdrawal?

 

A Eurozone in dire straits will not want to make their situation worse. Apart from the £39bn the UK has agreed to pay without any guaranteed trade deal, the UK is also a critical trading partner for the 'big four' EU member states.

If the Eurozone was booming they'd be more inclined to stick two fingers up to the UK and say take it or leave it. With the Eurozone in crisis they are more likely concede in certain areas. That's just common sense. 

 

[AlexRich]

1 hour ago, rixalex said:

The electorate was told it was a one-off, once in a lifetime vote, to remain or stay, and that the decision would be final and that the government would enact whatever the people decided.

 

So when i say that the only known expectation that the electorate could have, was that voting to stay would mean we stay in the EU, and voting to leave would mean we leave the EU, I'm not so much speaking for the electorate, as speaking for anyone with a reasonably functioning brain and two ears.

May’s deal involves leaving the EU, but Parliament could not ratify that? Nor will parliament ratify no deal. So what are we left with, it can only go back to the people.

[AlexRich]

3 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

A Eurozone in dire straits will not want to make their situation worse. Apart from the £39bn the UK has agreed to pay without any guaranteed trade deal, the UK is also a critical trading partner for the 'big four' EU member states.

If the Eurozone was booming they'd be more inclined to stick two fingers up to the UK and say take it or leave it. With the Eurozone in crisis they are more likely concede in certain areas. That's just common sense. 

 

The EU seems pretty entrenched.