Labour Government’s Bold Claim to “honesty with voters” Has Unraveled Quickly

[crazyfalangphil]

Hello all

 

This is my first ever time applying for a UK visit visa for my Thai gf. I appreciate if this may have been covered numerous times. I need the following guidance:

 

1. Home address- what to put? Current address or home address? I dont know how much they will look into this. She has lived in 2 different addresses away from her actual home address. Seems sill to ask but i dont want to trip up on any small detail.

 

2. cost of the trip. any advice here please? I am covering all costs. what sort of costs should i factor in? How much will this be scrutinised by the ECO?

 

3. The one that worries me most. She is not working at the moment and her income is what i send her. i am worried about the valid reason to return to Thailand as i have read family commitments are not always a sufficient reason?

 

Otherwise i have no problems regarding finances as i have a good job and no rent/mortgage as me and my dad own our property. in terms of proof of relationship being genuine..i have been with her for 2 years and have airline tickets, western union logs etc. i have found it a struggle to get Facebook messenger logs.

 

Again, thank you in advance for any advice. I am nervous about this!

Edited January 21, 2019 by crazyfalangphil
Spelling

[rasg]

4 hours ago, crazyfalangphil said:

This is my first ever time applying for a UK visit visa for my Thai gf. I appreciate if this may have been covered numerous times. I need the following guidance:

 

1. Home address- what to put? Current address or home address? I dont know how much they will look into this. She has lived in 2 different addresses away from her actual home address. Seems sill to ask but i dont want to trip up on any small detail.

 

2. cost of the trip. any advice here please? I am covering all costs. what sort of costs should i factor in? How much will this be scrutinised by the ECO?

 

3. The one that worries me most. She is not working at the moment and her income is what i send her. i am worried about the valid reason to return to Thailand as i have read family commitments are not always a sufficient reason?

 

Otherwise i have no problems regarding finances as i have a good job and no rent/mortgage as me and my dad own our property. in terms of proof of relationship being genuine..i have been with her for 2 years and have airline tickets, western union logs etc. i have found it a struggle to get Facebook messenger logs.

 

Again, thank you in advance for any advice. I am nervous about this!

I think you are going to run into problems with this application.

 

Your girlfriend not having a job and you are supporting her too tends to be a problem. An ECO will ask why your GF will go back to Thailand when her source of funds are in the UK. The best reason to return in my opinion is a job to go back to. Kids don't play much of a part in an application as so many Thais work away from home while family look after them.

[crazyfalangphil]

9 hours ago, rasg said:

I think you are going to run into problems with this application.

 

Your girlfriend not having a job and you are supporting her too tends to be a problem. An ECO will ask why your GF will go back to Thailand when her source of funds are in the UK. The best reason to return in my opinion is a job to go back to. Kids don't play much of a part in an application as so many Thais work away from home while family look after them.

Thank you for your reply rasg. i thought as much.

 

Is there anyone out there who has been in a similar situation to me and has had a successful application?

 

My train of thought was that i have such strong evidence of being in a genuine relationship that we would not want to jeopardise our future and any subsequent visa applications by her not returning.

[theoldgit]

My train of thought was that i have such strong evidence of being in a genuine relationship that we would not want to jeopardise our future and any subsequent visa applications by her not returning.

Your points, whilst valid, actually reinforce rasg’s concerns, your girlfriend doesn’t work and relies on support from you in the UK, again whilst you’re both adamant that you don’t want to scupper her chances of future applications, ECO’s work on hard facts not promises, that she would return.
I’m not saying her application would automatically fail, but she’s facing an uphill struggle.

[crazyfalangphil]

16 hours ago, theoldgit said:

Your points, whilst valid, actually reinforce rasg’s concerns, your girlfriend doesn’t work and relies on support from you in the UK, again whilst you’re both adamant that you don’t want to scupper her chances of future applications, ECO’s work on hard facts, not promises, that she would return.
I’m not saying her application would automatically fail, but she’s facing an uphill struggle.

Thank you for your reply. I have also read your very useful uk visit visa basics thread, which is great by the way. I guess it may be tough but i will have to give it a go (after much research of course).

[rasg]

In your shoes I would get your girlfriend to find a job and work there for six months and then request a relatively short holiday. If she applied for a 2 month holiday, for example, and she had only worked in a job for six months, the ECO will know that she will be unlikely to have an extended holiday granted by an employer after such a short period. ECOs know that the holidays for employees in Thailand are relatively short and they do check with employers by phone, quite a lot.

 

If you go this route i would also suggest that you don't mention the payments to your girlfriend in the application and don't supply her bank statements showing her payments from you either. Just explain that she is paid in cash by her employer. So many are advised to pay money into a girlfriend's bank account to pad it to make it "look better" and it rarely works.

[Denim]

My girlfriend got a visit visa and she had no job to come back to. She is now my wife, still has no job and has been to the UK three times.

 

She does own her own house and land so that might have influenced things. That plus me living here with no UK home again might have influenced things .

[brewsterbudgen]

1 hour ago, Denim said:

My girlfriend got a visit visa and she had no job to come back to. She is now my wife, still has no job and has been to the UK three times.

 

She does own her own house and land so that might have influenced things. That plus me living here with no UK home again might have influenced things .

My girlfriend, now wife, is the same, no job and entirely supported by me.  She has had 3 UK Visit visas.  However, like you, I live in Thailand which makes a huge difference.  Her reason to return to Thailand is because you will be returning to Thailand.

[theoldgit]

24 minutes ago, brewsterbudgen said:

My girlfriend, now wife, is the same, no job and entirely supported by me.  She has had 3 UK Visit visas.  However, like you, I live in Thailand which makes a huge difference.  Her reason to return to Thailand is because you will be returning to Thailand.

The difference between you guys and the OP of course is that you both live here in Thailand and he lives in the UK and supports his girlfriend from there.

[pagan1]

Over the years I have made several visit and settlement visas for my (now) wife and the very first visitor I made for her were in circumstances very similar to yours. Unfortunately that was 10 years ago.

However 18 months ago a visit visa for her brother and son to come and see us in the UK was refused.  The main reasons for refusal were her brothers lack of job and finances. Her son was an automatic refusal because the accompanying adult for the trip (her brother) was refused. 

As ever there are 4 criteria to address with the visit visa. You appear to have good evidence to cover Relationship, Accommodation and your Finances.

With regards to your GF's  Reasons to Return and her Finances you may find the approach I took useful. Below is an extract from the supporting letter we submitted with the reapplication (2 weeks later) following her brothers refusal. This application was successful.

Take care with the online questions about funding the trip. The questions are badly worded. State she will pay 1 UKP and in the later question indicate you will fund the remaining cost.

Also take care with the visit date you input. It used to be that visit visa was valid from the date of issue but now they START from the date you input for expected date of trip 

As ever honesty is the best policy and with some creative thinking a negative can turned into a positive. Hope the information below gives you some ideas and good luck with your application

P   

 

Sombat K –

Four issues were raised in refusing the visit visa for Sombat.

Firstly the online application states  ‘How much money are you planning to spend on your visit to the UK?

Estimate the amount and include flights, accommodation and everyday expenses.’ We obviously missed the emphasis on ‘you’ and entered the total estimated cost of the trip. Subsequent questions clearly identified N and I would be fully funding the trip for both Sombat & Somkiad. In this application we have entered the value £1 (as £0 is not a valid input) and trust that this resolves any suggestion of a personal cost to Sombat of £2000.

Secondly Sombat lives and works on the family farm. N’s parents are now close to 60 and whilst still active they are reliant on Sombat and his brother to maintain and operate the farm. With April being a quiet month there is an opportunity for Sombat to make the trip. However come July he will be required to support the family in the farming business and get the rice crop planted. This is a clearly understood and vital responsibility to the family. The application form provides five categories of employment and Sombat fails to fall neatly into any of the given categories. As with many Thai families (and UK farming families) he lives and works on the family farm (not formally employed), is supported by the family (no financial outgoings), will inherit a proportion and the main responsibility for running the farm when his parents die (assets in trust & expectation that he will run the farm until N and I return / retire to Thailand) and is playing an active part in the upbringing of Noree’s son. We accept that it is hard to formally document this situation but on previous visa applications for N we have highlighted that she also worked on the family farm, was supported by the family and had no formal income.

Thirdly the Reviewing Officer states he is unable to determine Sombart’s financial situation. In completing the application and providing supporting evidence we have been straightforward and concise. He lives and works on the family farm, takes care of his parents, is fed and financed from the family farm income & the money N, I and her other brothers provide. Should he need cash his parents will provide for his needs and / or N and I place money on a Travelex card (eg to finance visa trip to Bangkok). On the application form we stated approximately £40 per month as his needs are few. To suggest that he has ‘no strong family, social or economic ties to Thailand’ is to misread the situation.

Fourthly the catch all ‘reason to return to Thailand’ can be addressed as follows. When deciding to return to the UK N and I had several discussions concerning bringing So with us to settle in the UK. The additional costs would have been minimal and we could easily meet the financial requirements. However we decided that it would be better for So to continue his education in Thailand. It does however make sense to give him the opportunity to take a holiday in the UK and see where his stepfather and mother are living. It makes sense for Sombat to accompany him on the trip rather than So travel alone. As for Sombat failing to return to Thailand he would be in a position where he would lose his sister for deserting her son, his parents for leaving them and the farm, his brothers for deserting his parents, his livelyhood and farm inheritance and place Noree in a poor light concerning her future visa applications with UKBA. Given the Thai family culture it would take someone much braver than Sombat to risk it all and not return to Thailand.

 

 

[crazyfalangphil]

Thank you all for your advice and responses. I will take all of this into account. Its not an easy feeling doing this for the first time! You all have been very helpful and i appreciate it. Wish me luck!

[crazyfalangphil]

13 hours ago, pagan1 said:

Over the years I have made several visit and settlement visas for my (now) wife and the very first visitor I made for her were in circumstances very similar to yours. Unfortunately that was 10 years ago.

However 18 months ago a visit visa for her brother and son to come and see us in the UK was refused.  The main reasons for refusal were her brothers lack of job and finances. Her son was an automatic refusal because the accompanying adult for the trip (her brother) was refused. 

As ever there are 4 criteria to address with the visit visa. You appear to have good evidence to cover Relationship, Accommodation and your Finances.

With regards to your GF's  Reasons to Return and her Finances you may find the approach I took useful. Below is an extract from the supporting letter we submitted with the reapplication (2 weeks later) following her brothers refusal. This application was successful.

Take care with the online questions about funding the trip. The questions are badly worded. State she will pay 1 UKP and in the later question indicate you will fund the remaining cost.

Also take care with the visit date you input. It used to be that visit visa was valid from the date of issue but now they START from the date you input for expected date of trip 

As ever honesty is the best policy and with some creative thinking a negative can turned into a positive. Hope the information below gives you some ideas and good luck with your application

P   

 

Sombat K –

Four issues were raised in refusing the visit visa for Sombat.

Firstly the online application states  ‘How much money are you planning to spend on your visit to the UK?

Estimate the amount and include flights, accommodation and everyday expenses.’ We obviously missed the emphasis on ‘you’ and entered the total estimated cost of the trip. Subsequent questions clearly identified N and I would be fully funding the trip for both Sombat & Somkiad. In this application we have entered the value £1 (as £0 is not a valid input) and trust that this resolves any suggestion of a personal cost to Sombat of £2000.

Secondly Sombat lives and works on the family farm. N’s parents are now close to 60 and whilst still active they are reliant on Sombat and his brother to maintain and operate the farm. With April being a quiet month there is an opportunity for Sombat to make the trip. However come July he will be required to support the family in the farming business and get the rice crop planted. This is a clearly understood and vital responsibility to the family. The application form provides five categories of employment and Sombat fails to fall neatly into any of the given categories. As with many Thai families (and UK farming families) he lives and works on the family farm (not formally employed), is supported by the family (no financial outgoings), will inherit a proportion and the main responsibility for running the farm when his parents die (assets in trust & expectation that he will run the farm until N and I return / retire to Thailand) and is playing an active part in the upbringing of Noree’s son. We accept that it is hard to formally document this situation but on previous visa applications for N we have highlighted that she also worked on the family farm, was supported by the family and had no formal income.

Thirdly the Reviewing Officer states he is unable to determine Sombart’s financial situation. In completing the application and providing supporting evidence we have been straightforward and concise. He lives and works on the family farm, takes care of his parents, is fed and financed from the family farm income & the money N, I and her other brothers provide. Should he need cash his parents will provide for his needs and / or N and I place money on a Travelex card (eg to finance visa trip to Bangkok). On the application form we stated approximately £40 per month as his needs are few. To suggest that he has ‘no strong family, social or economic ties to Thailand’ is to misread the situation.

Fourthly the catch all ‘reason to return to Thailand’ can be addressed as follows. When deciding to return to the UK N and I had several discussions concerning bringing So with us to settle in the UK. The additional costs would have been minimal and we could easily meet the financial requirements. However we decided that it would be better for So to continue his education in Thailand. It does however make sense to give him the opportunity to take a holiday in the UK and see where his stepfather and mother are living. It makes sense for Sombat to accompany him on the trip rather than So travel alone. As for Sombat failing to return to Thailand he would be in a position where he would lose his sister for deserting her son, his parents for leaving them and the farm, his brothers for deserting his parents, his livelyhood and farm inheritance and place Noree in a poor light concerning her future visa applications with UKBA. Given the Thai family culture it would take someone much braver than Sombat to risk it all and not return to Thailand.

 

 

Wow this is fantastic. I very much agree with you on how some of the questions are worded. Many many thanks

[crazyfalangphil]

18 hours ago, rasg said:

In your shoes I would get your girlfriend to find a job and work there for six months and then request a relatively short holiday. If she applied for a 2 month holiday, for example, and she had only worked in a job for six months, the ECO will know that she will be unlikely to have an extended holiday granted by an employer after such a short period. ECOs know that the holidays for employees in Thailand are relatively short and they do check with employers by phone, quite a lot.

 

If you go this route i would also suggest that you don't mention the payments to your girlfriend in the application and don't supply her bank statements showing her payments from you either. Just explain that she is paid in cash by her employer. So many are advised to pay money into a girlfriend's bank account to pad it to make it "look better" and it rarely works.

Invaluable advice. Many thanks. The ECOs are outsourced in India now right? I wonder how much of a true Understanding of thai culture and society they have?

[theoldgit]

6 hours ago, crazyfalangphil said:

The ECOs are outsourced in India now right? I wonder how much of a true Understanding of thai culture and society they have?

Yes, the processing is carried out in India, but it's carried out by directly employed UKBA staff, usually from the UK, the processing is not outsourced.

The same system was used in Thailand and whilst the ECO's posted here may have had an understanding of Thai culture and society, decisions are made according to UK Immigration Law and guidlines.
There are many countries where applications for a UK visa are decided in a third country.

[wgdanson]

On 1/22/2019 at 3:54 PM, crazyfalangphil said:

Thank you for your reply rasg. i thought as much.

 

Is there anyone out there who has been in a similar situation to me and has had a successful application?

 

My train of thought was that i have such strong evidence of being in a genuine relationship that we would not want to jeopardise our future and any subsequent visa applications by her not returning.

Hi Phil, and yes, my GF & I are in exactly the same situation, and have successfully been to UK 4 times, no problem, and a Schengen this year. On the application I/she put income from me 50,000 a month, and could show that in her Bank book even though a large part of that was returned to me in cash. No job. A house and car and two teenage kids here. I affirmed that I was funding the entire trip. No silly past photos necessary. Flights already booked, but UK Visa advise against it. Health Insurance policy in place. Staying with my family. 

Pagan1's post is absolutely spot on.

All good, going back next year.

Edited January 24, 2019 by wgdanson

[a10ams]

We went through the same scenario. She was refused on grounds that she might not leave the UK. We appealed and lost. I got my local MP in Glasgow on the case. No success there either. A few months later we were married and re-applied. No problems at all, she got a 6 month visa. Second one was also 6 months, third 2 years, fourth 5 years and now she has a 10 year. The secret seems to involve wedding cake!

 

[thewaggaringa]

Phil, you're entire scenario matched mine pretty much exactly and I applied twice for mine and was granted both times no problems. I'm not sure if there is a DM option on this site, but if you can, I'd be happy to run over it with you.

[Jumbo1968]

My G/F has just been obtained her 2nd UK Visa, no Agents involved, she has no job, car, property, money in the bank.

i submitted a detailed Sponsors Letter with Bank Statements to show I fund her here and would do on her trip too the UK.

The reason for returning too Thailand was we were in relationship, renting a house and if she failed too return too Thailand I would withdraw all my financial support.

We completed the applications with a lot of advice from individuals on Thai Visa.

[crazyfalangphil]

5 hours ago, wgdanson said:

Hi Phil, and yes, my GF & I are in exactly the same situation, and have successfully been to UK 4 times, no problem, and a Schengen this year. On the application I/she put income from me 50,000 a month, and could show that in her Bank book even though a large part of that was returned to me in cash. No job. A house and car and two teenage kids here. I affirmed that I was funding the entire trip. No silly past photos necessary. Flights already booked, but UK Visa advise against it. Health Insurance policy in place. Staying with my family. 

Pagan1's post is absolutely spot on.

All good, going back next year.

Thats great to hear! It gives me hope. I wish the both of you happiness!

[7by7]

4 hours ago, a10ams said:

I got my local MP in Glasgow on the case. No success there either.

Not at all surprised.

 

MPs may make UKVI act a bit quicker on a case, but unless they can prove the decision maker acted against the immigration rules in refusing, they cannot change the decision nor even get UKVI to look at it again.

 

All views and advice are, of course, welcome. But it needs to be remembered that each case is treated on it's own merits by the decision makers.

 

It also needs to be remembered that posters do not always remember the exact details of their case; especially if refused. Very few people will accept that a refusal was justified; either because the application was poor or the applicant simply didn't qualify. I know that from personal experience!

 

To be certain whether or not a refusal is justified under the rules we need to see the actual refusal notice itself.

 

Over 18 years of experience on this board and others has shown me that there are basically only three reasons for a refusal. These are, in ascending order with the least common first:-

• an error by the decision maker,
• the applicant didn't qualify,
• the applicant did qualify but failed to show they did.

So prepare any application carefully, reading advice such as the pinned topics here and, of course, the official guidance. Ask questions on forums such as this if unsure of anything.

[mickmac]

You say that both yourself and your father own the property you will stay in in the UK. It may also benefit you if he sends you a letter confirming that he has plenty of room for you to stay etc.   Good luck. 

[virtualm]

On 1/24/2019 at 9:59 AM, Jumbo1968 said:

The reason for returning too Thailand was we were in relationship, renting a house and if she failed too return too Thailand I would withdraw all my financial support.

 

I'm in the middle of helping my gf with her 2nd UK tourist visa (last years was successful), I like that statement about withdrawing all financial support, I think I'll add that to my sponsor letter...thanks a lot Jumbo.

[rasg]

And it's not much different than saying we don't want to jeopardise future blah, blah blah. I doubt that either will make a hap'orth of difference.

[Jumbo1968]

2 hours ago, rasg said:

And it's not much different than saying we don't want to jeopardise future blah, blah blah. I doubt that either will make a hap'orth of difference.

TBH just put your last Sponsors Letter with the Application plus an update, for me the Sponsors Letter along with proof of financial support is the most important thing.

[rasg]

13 hours ago, Jumbo1968 said:

TBH just put your last Sponsors Letter with the Application plus an update, for me the Sponsors Letter along with proof of financial support is the most important thing.

Although proof of sufficient money to fund the trip is important, the most important is the reason or reasons to return to Thailand.

Edited January 27, 2019 by rasg

[darren1971]

On 1/22/2019 at 8:54 AM, crazyfalangphil said:

Thank you for your reply rasg. i thought as much.

 

Is there anyone out there who has been in a similar situation to me and has had a successful application?

 

My train of thought was that i have such strong evidence of being in a genuine relationship that we would not want to jeopardise our future and any subsequent visa applications by her not returning.

Sat on the sofa with my Thai gf (soon to be wife) reading your post, she is on her second visit visa both were for 6 months. She had no job, income, assets or children in Thailand to return too but has had 2 applications accepted and 1 refused (her first application). So it is possible to get a visa under most circumstances but never guaranteed, the reason to return elements is often a case of working with what you have and delivering a convincing argument in your supporting documents, avoid telling any lies and just be prepared to apply again if you receive a refusal. Often in cases such as yours a refusal opens the door for an application to be accepted, they have to give you their reason for a refusal which you can then address in your second application.

 

My gf's first application was refused as her only income was money I was sending and she had no strong financial ties to Thailand. In her second application her situation was identical but a rewording of the supporting letter was enough to get her through.... was it the supporting letter that got her through? was it because our perseverance gave the application more credibility, was it just luck of the draw with the ECO processing the application?.... you never know. 

 

Good luck with it!

 

[rasg]

The first visa application failed as it included lots of emotion and information that the ECO didn't need to know and also repetition. The second application contained coherent reasons why Ket should get the visa without the waffle.

Edited January 29, 2019 by rasg

[darren1971]

6 hours ago, rasg said:

The first visa application failed as it included lots of emotion and information that the ECO didn't need to know and also repetition. The second application contained coherent reasons why Ket should get the visa without the waffle.

now you know what ECO's were thinking... ?

In the field of psychology, the Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people of low ability have illusory superiority and mistakenly assess their cognitive ability as greater than it is. The cognitive bias of illusory superiority comes from the inability of low-ability people to recognize their lack of ability. Without the self-awareness of metacognition, low-ability people cannot objectively evaluate their competence or incompetence

Edited January 29, 2019 by darren1971

[rasg]

5 hours ago, darren1971 said:

now you know what ECO's were thinking... ?

Don't forget I saw the refusal notice and I saw the Sponsor letter that you relied upon that resulted in the refusal. I then heavily edited that Sponsor letter that resulted in a successful application, it appears that I had a better idea of what he/she was thinking than you...

[crazyfalangphil]

On 1/29/2019 at 12:03 AM, darren1971 said:

Sat on the sofa with my Thai gf (soon to be wife) reading your post, she is on her second visit visa both were for 6 months. She had no job, income, assets or children in Thailand to return too but has had 2 applications accepted and 1 refused (her first application). So it is possible to get a visa under most circumstances but never guaranteed, the reason to return elements is often a case of working with what you have and delivering a convincing argument in your supporting documents, avoid telling any lies and just be prepared to apply again if you receive a refusal. Often in cases such as yours a refusal opens the door for an application to be accepted, they have to give you their reason for a refusal which you can then address in your second application.

 

My gf's first application was refused as her only income was money I was sending and she had no strong financial ties to Thailand. In her second application her situation was identical but a rewording of the supporting letter was enough to get her through.... was it the supporting letter that got her through? was it because our perseverance gave the application more credibility, was it just luck of the draw with the ECO processing the application?.... you never know. 

 

Good luck with it!

 

Thanks darren, definite food for thought there, if the first application should be refused..well hell on the positive side i've gained some experience. Hopefully soon it will be me sitting on the sofa with my gf!

 

Many thanks for your input