Retirement Visa - What are the new requirements.

[Thomas J]

1 minute ago, jacko45k said:

Wrong again, Arabic has a different numbering system!

Wrong again, only Eastern Arabic is different.  Even if it was different.  Numbers are numbers.  If it is a Thai requirement, the Thai's should be the one to address it and not pawn off the responsibility on the embassies of other countries.  If it is so difficult to verify income for the Thai's immigration people what makes you think it would be so easy for the embassies of other countries based here in Thailand.  They have a much more limited staff based here than the Thai government. 

[jacko45k]

9 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

If it is so difficult to verify income for the Thai's immigration people what makes you think it would be so easy for the embassies of other countries based here in Thailand.  They have a much more limited staff based here than the Thai government. 

Yes, I am of the opinion they should stop trying, lo and behold 4 already did. Now some need to do what Thai immigration require as an accommodation, sensibly, (maybe not compassionately), to only deal with income or deposits into/in Thailand. 

Edited January 28, 2019 by jacko45k

[Olmate]

6 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

Wrong again, only Eastern Arabic is different.  Even if it was different.  Numbers are numbers.  If it is a Thai requirement, the Thai's should be the one to address it and not pawn off the responsibility on the embassies of other countries.  If it is so difficult to verify income for the Thai's immigration people what makes you think it would be so easy for the embassies of other countries based here in Thailand.  They have a much more limited staff based here than the Thai government. 

If I may comment in Oz the Thai Embassy only uses the documents the applicants submits for his OA ,ie bank statements certified, income statements etc and declared by Stac Dec from you as true.Privacy provisions don’t allow any further checks.

[gentlemanjackdarby]

9 hours ago, Pilotman said:

I found that a lot of stress and  hassle went away for me once I had done everything official once; first extension of stay, first 90 days report, Thai driving licence, now getting an account organised  and  getting that 800K into the bank well in advance of my next extension of stay. Life is simple here once you have all the pieces  in place, although getting to that position can be frustrating. I must say that all the detailed forward planning before I ever came to live in LOS paid off big time.  

Detailed forward planning - the key to life

[JackThompson]

7 hours ago, Thomas J said:

Well obviously the four embassies thought something had changed.  Also Thai immigration has for many years accepted the affidavits as provided by the embassies as valid for purposes of obtaining a visa. 

I agree.  I think we were thrown under the bus with TI holding one arm, and our embassies holding the other - swinging together, each for their own reasons.

 

7 hours ago, Thomas J said:

Again, it is a Thai requirement.  For the Thai government to expect that other countries embassies due their work to verify income to meet a Thai requirement is wrong.  In the USA and I expect in other countries the Thai Embassies in those countries issue O-A Visas which require income verification. 

If the docs are notarized and they appear to be genuine, you are set.  The embassies in our passport-countries have no special-permission to access records from our banks, pension-providers, etc - so cannot "verify" anything.  It is a "made up out of whole cloth" story, to claim such a "verification" standard ever existed. 

 

Many will likely opt to use Non-OA Visas from their passport-countries, as a result of the change.  The only downside is the medical (cost) and police check (can take time).  But, as this avoids agents, immigration will likely work overtime to claim everyone is lying, send out their trolls to repeat, "Bad foreigners ruined it for everyone," and try to to shut that avenue down, also.

 

7 hours ago, Thomas J said:

If those embassies can verify the income there is absolutely no reason why government agencies here in Thailand could not do the same.  

Not really - though they could certainly allow our passport-country embassy-staff, who are familiar with documents in that country, verify them.  But this would require extra staff to do this - not that most would mind paying a few K more baht extra, for an honest and straightforward process. 

 

Similar could be done to allow applying for Non-OA, METV, and such from nearby consulates - pay a bit extra, and they electronically-xfer your docs to your passport-country Thai embassy for review, for an additional fee.  This would allow one to hang out in HCMC or somewhere nice, instead of on a cramped-plane.  But, of course, that defeats the purpose - to make it difficult to do, in order to discourage it - to herd you to an immigration office / agent for fleecing, instead. 

[JLCrab]

42 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

But, of course, that defeats the purpose - to make it difficult to do, in order to discourage it - to herd you to an immigration office / agent for fleecing, instead. 

The reason the new monthly deposit scheme requires bank transfer from overseas every month is to make it so difficult and expensive each month so folks will use an agent.
The reason the the 800/400K baht annual deposit is kept beyond the reach of some is so they will use an agent.
The reason that the O-A requires that you apply for the visa in your passport country after obtaining docs that can only be obtained in one's passport country with all the necessary travel is so that it will be easier to just use an agent.
The reason the Elite Visa costs 500K baht for 5 years (the least expensive option) is so that it is so expensive that you will use an agent.

 

Do I detect a pattern?

Edited January 28, 2019 by JLCrab

[Thomas J]

8 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

The reason the new monthly deposit scheme requires bank transfer from overseas every month is to make it so difficult and expensive each month so folks will use an agent.
The reason the the 800/400K baht annual deposit is kept beyond the reach of some is so they will use an agent.
The reason that the O-A requires that you apply for the visa in your passport country after obtaining docs that can only be obtained in one's passport country with all the necessary travel is so that it will be easier to just use an agent.
The reason the Elite Visa costs 500K baht for 5 years (the least expensive option) is so that it is so expensive that you will use an agent.

 

Do I detect a pattern?

I think you are correct.  They are making it virtually impossible for anyone to comply so you are forced to use an agent to whom different rules apply. 

 

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

I think you are correct.  They are making it virtually impossible for anyone to comply so you are forced to use an agent to whom different rules apply. 

 

Could be a trap though.

Use an agent and you're participating in corruption, and they know it.

Then you're forever legally vulnerable here.

What a way to live abroad.

[JLCrab]

21 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Could be a trap though.

Use an agent and you're participating in corruption, and they know it.

Then you're forever legally vulnerable here.

What a way to live abroad.

The only reason the agent route works is a flaw (my word) in the IMM Act Section 35 that allows an IMM officer to waive requirements most likely intended solely for humanitarian reasons.

 

That flaw may or may not be long lived.

[Jingthing]

The only reason the agent route works is a flaw (my word) in the IMM Act Section 35 that allows an IMM officer to waive requirements most likely intended solely for humanitarian reasons.
 
That flaw may or may not be long lived.

Oh no. You've leaked a big secret to BJ. They had no idea about that before now. We're all doomed.

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[Pattaya46]

3 hours ago, JLCrab said:

The only reason the agent route works is a flaw (my word) in the IMM Act Section 35 that allows an IMM officer to waive requirements most likely intended solely for humanitarian reasons.

Not "an IMM Officer", but "a very high ranked IMM Officer" ! (I don't remember which rank)

In a previous thread someone informed us that at Pattaya there is no officer with a rank high enough to have this privilege. That means that all Extensions obtained there using an Agent are for the least very suspect... 

[Slosheroni]

As an American looking to get a non-O visa while in Thailand in the near future I read this entire thread with interest especially with regards to the catch 22 Thomas J encountered.  Has anyone else personally, or know of someone, who was not able to open a bank account without first having a one year visa?  Unless I missed it no one else has chimed in that they have faced this problem.  Thomas I'm not questioning your experience.  I'm just trying to see if there are others that can verify that this is now the case. 

 

Thanks

[JackThompson]

13 hours ago, JLCrab said:

The reason the new monthly deposit scheme requires bank transfer from overseas every month is to make it so difficult and expensive each month so folks will use an agent.

Many will now use an agent, because they do not transfer that much (65K baht) of their total income here every month and/or do not live in Thailand year-round. 

 

Most who are faking their income (don't have a gross 65K) would use an agent vs bothering with rotating money and paying the fees to do so - even if it could save a bit over the agent-fee - but this depends on what area, as agent-fees vary quite a bit.

 

In areas where the agent fees are higher, and even fully-legit applications face resistance from IOs (Phuket agents reported at 30K Baht/yr, and office reported refusing ALL embassy letters now), many will rotate money, and this will lead immigration to say, "See, look at this abuse!  No more income-method." 
 

13 hours ago, JLCrab said:

The reason the the 800/400K baht annual deposit is kept beyond the reach of some is so they will use an agent.

The reason for the "seasoning" is to prevent short-term loan competition to the agents who pay immigration.  Agent money needs to be seasoned for only 5 minutes.

Some Immigration offices seem to believe the 2 months seasoning for marriage-based extension money is "too short" to prevent people using non-agent (brown-envelope to immigration) loans, so are extending it via the back-door, by forcing one not to touch the money during the "consideration" period, which is at least one additional month, but sometimes two.

 

13 hours ago, JLCrab said:

The reason that the O-A requires that you apply for the visa in your passport country after obtaining docs that can only be obtained in one's passport country with all the necessary travel is so that it will be easier to just use an agent.

I could obtain all the docs needed for an Non-O-A Visa from here.  If something needs to be checked in the passport-country Thai consulate, that could be transmitted electronically.  Flying one's body in a tube across the planet to deliver paperwork is pointless - unless the goal is to make it unpleasant / difficult. 

 

13 hours ago, JLCrab said:

The reason the Elite Visa costs 500K baht for 5 years (the least expensive option) is so that it is so expensive that you will use an agent.

No, the elite is its own payoff - a fully legalized one, though.  Too bad it was not priced for the market/region to maximize revenue, and with all proceeds going to good-works (hospitals, schools, aid to the elderly and destitute, etc).

 

13 hours ago, JLCrab said:

Do I detect a pattern?

I do not see how anyone following the money - and the public-ads for "no money extensions" via agents - could miss the pattern.

Edited January 29, 2019 by JackThompson

[JackThompson]

13 hours ago, JLCrab said:

The only reason the agent route works is a flaw (my word) in the IMM Act Section 35 that allows an IMM officer to waive requirements most likely intended solely for humanitarian reasons.

 

That flaw may or may not be long lived.

I agree with the humanitarian justification for the waiving of requirements, though I do not recall any reports of it being used for that purpose.  I only recall some reports of where it should of been, but was not.

 

If you apply in-person they check for seasoning by looking at bank-books, but do they actually document the "seasoning" in the file with copies?  Without a documentation requirement, it would not be possible to verify which applications had seasoning checked by reviewing the files - making an audit difficult, absent back-searching bank-records for every applicant.

 

They could force this documentation, then do a "under consideration" period, as is done for marriage-based, allowing the applications to be checked at the district-level - but the next level up could (already is) in on the agent-money, making the entire effort just another way to discourage honest, in-person applications.

 

There is no way to "fix" a system where a financial reward is in-place for those violating whatever rules are imposed - especially when this has been set up in the form of a multi-level-marketing scheme which delivers huge payouts to the players at top of the pyramid.  More strict rules -> more kickback money -> less actual accountability to any rules, and the cycle repeats.  We don't need another "kickback-raise" program, following on the heels of the previous, "crackdowns" and "tightenings" - but that is probably what is coming.

Edited January 29, 2019 by JackThompson

[JLCrab]

Big Joke has already said that he wants to modify Section 37 of the Immigration Act on 90 day reports -- once you modify one section, you can modify another.

 

Whatever he decides to do or not do will be done without consideration as to what you think can or cannot be done.

 

[ubonjoe]

13 hours ago, JLCrab said:

The only reason the agent route works is a flaw (my word) in the IMM Act Section 35 that allows an IMM officer to waive requirements most likely intended solely for humanitarian reasons.

I am not sure what translation of the immigration act you are looking at. The one I have that was downloaded from the immigration website does not have that statement in section 35.

 

[JLCrab]

Same one as you.

[tropo]

On 1/26/2019 at 9:10 PM, steve73 said:

 

Do you have a link to this report please..?

 

[stud858]

On 1/25/2019 at 4:43 PM, Thomas J said:

I went to about 5 different banks

Just as a test, I bet if you got someone to go back to same banks and ask to open an account to transfer 3 million baht because they wanted to buy a condo, then the banks would open the account.

I'm curious to hear a knock back on those grounds.

 

[wgdanson]

On 1/26/2019 at 3:41 PM, Jingthing said:

For example, they could total up the sum of the previous 12 monthly transfers to be for example 550K baht. Then a Thai bank account (probably needing to be seasoned for three months) could be shown along with bank letter of at least 250K baht where the balance of the sum of the 12 transfers and the bank account amount doesn't fall one baht below 800K during the bank account seasoning period. None of this is written anywhere. Just a projection from the current combo method with embassy letters.

The chief IO at my office, Phitsanulok, said he would accept this method. 800k and he doesn't care as long as it came from abroad. And that I could spend what I wanted/needed from the monthly deposits.

Edited January 30, 2019 by wgdanson

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

The chief IO at my office, Phitsanulok, said he would accept this method. 800k and he doesn't care as long as it came from abroad. 

OK. Good luck.

Edited January 30, 2019 by Jingthing

[wgdanson]

10 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Not sure exactly which method you're talking about. If it's the 800K bank method seasoned --

 

The 800K bank method seasoned does not require international import and never has.

However, if doing a conversion from 30 day stamp or tourist visa to 90 day O visa in Thailand as a first step before getting a first extension, an 800K application would need to show international import for the first step, the conversion to O visa, but not the second step, the extension. 

Sorry Jing. I was meaning the 'combination' method. Some of it monthly from UK,  and a top-up 3 months before extension time.

He did say that he would accept say 50k a month = 600k, of which I can spends what is needed,  plus 200k top-up. But as others have said, what if he isn't working there next December. That's why I got it in writing by one of the office girls.

Edited January 30, 2019 by wgdanson

[TheThai]

I was able to open a bank account at Bangkok bank on 2nd road across from McDonald's with just my 30 day visa stamp. Although I was on the extension, but still only the 30 day stamp extension.   They required a residence certificate, and my passport.  I was also required to buy their insurance.  I did this Aug 2018.

[Thomas J]

3 hours ago, TheThai said:

I was able to open a bank account at Bangkok bank on 2nd road across from McDonald's with just my 30 day visa stamp. Although I was on the extension, but still only the 30 day stamp extension.   They required a residence certificate, and my passport.  I was also required to buy their insurance.  I did this Aug 2018.

Exactly however even if a person did such as you did. There is no way to transfer $800k baht and have it seasoned for 3 months even with a 90 day visa

[jacko45k]

16 hours ago, Thomas J said:

Exactly however even if a person did such as you did. There is no way to transfer $800k baht and have it seasoned for 3 months even with a 90 day visa

Would 2 months seasoning for a first time extension not suffice?

[Thomas J]

6 hours ago, jacko45k said:

Would 2 months seasoning for a first time extension not suffice?

I was told by Jomtien immigration two different officers 3 months. 

[Jingthing]

I was told by Jomtien immigration two different officers 3 months. 

I don't believe that. It's three months for subsequent extensions but two months for the first one.

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[jacko45k]

11 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

I was told by Jomtien immigration two different officers 3 months. 

Oh you needn't listen to them, better asking the cat!

[Thomas J]

7 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

Oh you needn't listen to them, better asking the cat!

Technically the law does not specify a time that funds must be aged.  It merely states a $800k baht or 65k baht monthly income.  The idea that it has to be on deposit for 3 months or that the 65K baht must be shown for 12 months is strictly up to the immigration offices.  Since I must go to Jomtien whether they are right or wrong is immaterial.  They are the ones who are "making the law" and they can establish whatever rules they want to. 

[ubonjoe]

4 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

Technically the law does not specify a time that funds must be aged.

It is certainly shown in clause 2.22 of the police order and on the immigration website.

"(4) On the filing date, the applicant must have account  deposited  (saving / fixed account) in a bank in Thailand of no less than
Baht 800,000 for the past three months. For the first year only, the applicant must have proof of a
deposit account in which said amount of funds has been maintained for no less than 60 days prior to
the filing date;"