Retirement Visa - What are the new requirements.

[WyrldTraveler]

The only ones qualified to answer these questions definitively are the Immigration Officers deciding your application.  Everyone else's opinion is just that - their opinion.

 

Humility, patience and good manners go a long way in Thailand.

[Jingthing]

10 minutes ago, WyrldTraveler said:

The only ones qualified to answer these questions definitively are the Immigration Officers deciding your application.  Everyone else's opinion is just that - their opinion.

 

Humility, patience and good manners go a long way in Thailand.

In the case of combo applications / no embassy letters more likely than not they will be thinking they don't really know yet and say not possible to keep it simple. 

Also you can go in today to ask and get one answer, then go in next month and get a totally different answer, and then at your actual application get yet another different answer. So yes I would agree the only fully definitive information is how your officer deals with your actual application. 

That said, some application types are very highly predictable and right now combo applications / no embassy letter applications are unacceptably unpredictable. No matter how well you are dressed and how polite. 

Edited January 26, 2019 by Jingthing

[Lemonltr]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

Assuming you can no longer get an embassy letter.

The leniency in the memo refers to telling officers not to be so strict about demanding the full 12 months of transfers as this is a new scheme (income method without embassy letter) with the understanding that next year the full 12 monthly imports will be a hard requirement.

The memos about these changes refer to FULL income method only. That means monthly transfers of at least 65K baht every month.

They don't mention the combination method at all.

Ubonjoe and others are convinced that this new scheme for income method without embassy definitely is meant to include combo method applications.

Combo method applications with embassy letters remain definitely unchanged.

As there are no explicit mechanical guidelines on what constitutes a valid combo application without embassy letter (as there is for the full 65K) so far reports are indicating such combo applications without embassy letters are likely to be problematical. 

That could all change tomorrow, next month, or by the time you need to apply based on further  memo from immigration explicitly explaining the specific rules for combo applications without embassy letters.

But even then, yes, obviously, there would likely still be inconsistent enforcement at various immigration offices. We see that for rules that have been in place for several years, so such messes on something so new are entirely predictable.

That is why I am suggesting the following, especially to people that plan to do a combo application without embassy letter THIS YEAR --

If you are able and if you want to avoid a high risk of rejection, consider doing a full 800K baht seasoned full bank account method until this fogginess with combo/no embassy letter gets better resolved. 

It's one thing to tell people it should be OK based on our rough interpretation of the written rules, we hope it's going to be OK, but I'm saying that is not good enough.

We need better assurance than that and for the time being anyway, that assurance can be found with a full 800K seasoned bank method where embassy letters have never been required in the first place.

Good luck.

Thank you Jingthing for taking the time to answer so extensively. As a Brit my embassy letter is stopped. I had decided not to trust the combo method and bring in 65k monthly but still have 300k banked. You are right. I believe we are entitled to clear instructions. 

[Jingthing]

Just now, Lemonltr said:

Thank you Jingthing for taking the time to answer so extensively. As a Brit my embassy letter is stopped. I had decided not to trust the combo method and bring in 65k monthly but still have 300k banked. You are right. I believe we are entitled to clear instructions. 

You're welcome.

I think a full 65K monthly import is a safer option than trying a combo / no embassy letter applications especially this year.

Based on the "leniency" memo in theory you wouldn't need the full 12 months this year.

But safer is relative. Obviously a full bank method 800K seasoned is the safest. 

[KittenKong]

38 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

Crikey, give it a rest! It's 1.3 %, if you put in 800k in you get enough for one GGB beer each week if you claim the tax back!

My FD is paying 1.25 so hardly worth the swap!

Actually I get about 1000B every month in interest on my MTD account. That pays for quite a few beers. And I would much rather that money be in my pocket than in my bank's. Up to you if you prefer it the other way around.

 

And you miss the main advantage of that account over a fixed deposit at Bangkok Bank: the MTD account is not fixed. You can withdraw twice a month without charge or add to it by any amount at any time, as you wish. And you still get more interest on the whole amount.

[Pilotman]

2 hours ago, Thomas J said:

Well that is not much of an answer.  I went to five different banks. Some more than one branch.  How does a foreigner coming here even know what the "right branch" to go to is? 

 

Do you like the colour of the decor, are the bank staff attractive, have you drunk alcohol in the last 30 minutes,  is it raining,. sunny, snowing. The answer is, you don't know.  Just write off a day or two and walk around until you find one.  But most importantly, maintain a zen like state of calmness and acceptability of what is and try to mask the feeling that you will almost certainly have. of wanting to punch someone in the mouth.   

 

 

[jacko45k]

 

5 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

That pays for quite a few beers.

Not enough to take the dust off!????

[Pilotman]

2 hours ago, Thomas J said:

I tried that.  They gave me the form for Bangkok bank.  No forms for any other banks.  No one on this post seems to comprehend the original question.  The banks refuse to open accounts.  Even if they did open an account the most you can get on your first long term Visa is 90 days.  That means even if you got a Visa, went to a bank and deposited the same day $800K baht, it would not meet the 3 month requirement.  Now consider, I have been here 4 months now and have some knowledge of the local banking and immigration requirements.  What is a brand new person from another country to do when they go to several branches in 2019 all of which refuse to open an account and the person can no longer get an income verification affidavit from their Embassy.  I got my 1 year visa now but only because I made two trips to Bangkok to get two different income verification.  Now that that option is gone, I am thinking that new people will be put in an impossible position. No Visa - no Account.  No Account, No Visa. 

Then I guess that they have to keep getting one year O visas from a neighbouring country or their home country, No other option that I can see. 

[Saladin]

My Australian pension of around 40,000 per month is paid directly into Bangkok Bank by Social Security. One thing I don't get is whether the additional 25,000 that is required to meet the requirements can come in at irregular intervals and in varying amounts, or in one hit, or must it be in regular monthly deposits?

[Jingthing]

33 minutes ago, Saladin said:

My Australian pension of around 40,000 per month is paid directly into Bangkok Bank by Social Security. One thing I don't get is whether the additional 25,000 that is required to meet the requirements can come in at irregular intervals and in varying amounts, or in one hit, or must it be in regular monthly deposits?

Complicated answer as usual these days.

 

Full income applications without embassy letters.

The new rules require an international transfer of at least 65K per month for the previous 12 months but a leniency memo was issued telling officers to consider applications without the full 12 months because it's a new thing. 

The leniency was about number of months going back. 

It was not about ever going below 65K for even one month once you start the transfers to qualify in this way.

 

 

Combination application without embassy letters.

Ubonjoe and others are stating that the combination method continues to be supported without embassy letters. However new memos have not mentioned it explicitly and beyond that no specific mechanical rules have been published as opposed to the full income 65K monthly import method.

The general consensus that I am gleaning is that if/when immigration does formally document the mechanical rules for that, it will be similar to the full income method, but there will be no requirement to transfer as much as 65K. Because it's the combo method. For example, they could total up the sum of the previous 12 monthly transfers to be for example 550K baht. Then a Thai bank account (probably needing to be seasoned for three months) could be shown along with bank letter of at least 250K baht where the balance of the sum of the 12 transfers and the bank account amount doesn't fall one baht below 800K during the bank account seasoning period. None of this is written anywhere. Just a projection from the current combo method with embassy letters.

 

But wait, there's more but alas it wouldn't be an issue for you as you have transfers going back the full 12 months already. But many won't the first year. If people show less than the full 12 months back based on the "leniency" memo, and typically the imports are not exactly the same due to exchange rates, how would they (or would they at all) ANNUALIZE those imports to get at the base number before the bank account addition.

 

As can be seen, at the current time combo applications / no embassy letters especially with the full 12 months of transfers to show are rather foggy. Immigration officers have not been told the details and they certainly aren't usually the type to invent such rules on the fly, so the easiest and not at all irrational response currently is that probably NO, we won't accept combo applications without embassy letters when there are less than 12 monthly transfers to show. But they might if they can figure how to apply the leniency memo to combo cases and/or they are provided new specific guidelines that specifically apply to these combo/no embassy letter cases.

 

Cheers.

Edited January 26, 2019 by Jingthing

[ubonjoe]

12 minutes ago, Saladin said:

My Australian pension of around 40,000 per month is paid directly into Bangkok Bank by Social Security. One thing I don't get is whether the additional 25,000 that is required to meet the requirements can come in at irregular intervals and in varying amounts, or in one hit, or must it be in regular monthly deposits?

The 40k and the 25k would have to transfered into your account every month.

You also have to the option to combine the 40k baht as a annual income with the other funds to reach a total in the bank 800k baht for 3 months on the date you apply for the extension.

[MyFriend You]

On 1/25/2019 at 3:09 PM, DrJack54 said:

You will be able to open a Thai bank account. There are threads on Thaivisa advising just do a search. I also had several knock backs when I first tried to open one. Don't waste time with local branch. Go head office. 

In Jom Tien, go to the SCB  branch on the Beach Road, (Soi 11) the Branch in Pattaya Central Festival won't open an account unless you have a work permit - boggles the mind.  In Bangkok to to Bangkok Bank or SCB on the first floor of The Emporium, say it is for a Condo Purchase and fixed deposit.  I had no problems opening an account, and neither have my friends. 

[DrJack54]

3 minutes ago, TunnelRat69 said:

In Jom Tien, go to the SCB  branch on the Beach Road, (Soi 11) the Branch in Pattaya Central Festival won't open an account unless you have a work permit - boggles the mind.  In Bangkok to to Bangkok Bank or SCB on the first floor of The Emporium, say it is for a Condo Purchase and fixed deposit.  I had no problems opening an account, and neither have my friends. 

Exactly. As posted many times "it depends where you go" and little bit how persistent you are. No doubt it has become more difficult but can be done.

[Kalasin Jo]

On 1/25/2019 at 4:43 PM, Thomas J said:

I went to about 5 different banks.  None of them would open an account even after I got my O non-immigrant 90 day Visa.  All said it had to be a 1 year Visa to open an account.  The only exception was Bangkok  bank where if you got a letter from immigration they would open an account for you if you bought an insurance policy as well.  Even then, they would not open prior to getting the 90 day O visa and Jomtien immigration said money had to be on deposit for at least 3 months.  Two months if you used an agency according to the bank person.  Again, isn't that a catch 22.  You can't open a bank account but you must show evidence of your pension or $800K baht on deposit. 

May be I just got lucky? I opened a savings account with Bangkok Bank Pattaya main branch back in 2012 when I was still on visa exempt, with just my passport, a rented condo address and 2,000 baht. Staff all very friendly and with can do attitude. I did have to buy an insurance policy providing a modest payout to my then girlfriend's (now wife) mother in the event of her death,but the annual premium is very small and I've never cancelled it. I then stuck 800k in it and got a retirement visa using an agent in Bangkok. I am still running this account today although I have changed my Thai address on it a few times and now it's an address in Kalasin province where I live. 2 years ago I went in to  Big C branch in Kalasin City of Bangkok Bank and opened a second savings account without any memorable problem, certainly not the reference letter from my UK bank that their website says is needed. As other posters and comments say: how can you have money in a Thai bank account for a visa application if you can't open such an account first? Oh and once (even more off original topic) I lost my ATM card. The local Big C branch rang customer service for me, but I had to speak to the person on the other end to get it cancelled, who told me I could only get a new one from Pattaya branch were my account is held, but after that the local staff said so you want a new one? Yes I said ,so they activated a new one there and then. No problems it works fine!

[MyFriend You]

9 hours ago, Thomas J said:

I tried two branches of Krungsri.  One was in the Big C shopping plaza and the other was on beach road  Jomtien beach.  I tried two SCB branches as well.  The Bangkok branch in the Big C plaza would open the account without the immigration authorization  but I had to purchase an $7,000 baht insurance policy.  The one on Jomtien beach would only open the account with the authorization letter from the immigration office and it was a $2,000 baht insurance policy required. 

Sorry, must be something about you.  I have taken 3 people to the Jom Tien Branch with their passports and a copy of the Residence report from Jomtien immigration and the address of the Condo rental.........they were able to open accounts.  They all transferred in over a million baht - All within the past year - Good Luck

 

I don't advocate using Agents, but sometimes......................(fill  in the blanks)  There are several in Jom Tien.  Whats this Insurance you talk about??  Life Insurance??  That has been going around for 25 years, not required by any bank, but if it gets you what you want..........why not?.

[tropo]

11 hours ago, wgdanson said:

In my case all SWIFT transfers show as Foreign, as do Transferwise to Bangkok Bank and also transfers in GBP to a Foreign Currency Account.

I SWIFT transferred THB to my K-Bank account and it shows as a domestic transfer. This is the first time I sent THB rather than $$$. It must have been transferred from a corresponding bank. Just to avoid this problem, next time I'll send $$$. As we have just received a report that Jomtien Immigration won't accept monthly deposits as proof of income, this could all be a waste of time.

[wgdanson]

1 minute ago, tropo said:

I SWIFT transferred THB to my K-Bank account and it shows as a domestic transfer. This is the first time I sent THB rather than $$$. It must have been transferred from a corresponding bank. Just to avoid this problem, next time I'll send $$$. As we have just received a report that Jomtien Immigration won't accept monthly deposits as proof of income, this could all be a waste of time.

It has always been better to bring USD/GBP to Thailand and exchange it here, be it bank transfers or cash.

[steve73]

54 minutes ago, tropo said:

 As we have just received a report that Jomtien Immigration won't accept monthly deposits as proof of income, this could all be a waste of time.

 

Do you have a link to this report please..?

Edited January 26, 2019 by steve73

[gentlemanjackdarby]

13 hours ago, KittenKong said:

I can see that one of those may be of interest to a limited number of people, in particular circumstances, but few if any would be affected by both.

 

Are there really that many people in the situation you describe? I dont think that I personally know anyone who is. I certainly would rather get the extra bank interest paid by a better bank, as for me this amounts to much more than I would ever pay in transfer charges per year (usually nothing).

To your first point, speaking from an American perspective and as someone that's worked since age 10, I'd think that many more Americans than not would be effected by both:

 

Most Americans, even if they haven't paid into U.S. Social Security for their entire working career or have held low-paying jobs will receive an SS retirement benefit at some point - the minimum SS retirement benefit for most folks is around USD 800 per month and the average benefit for 2018 was around USD 1,400.

 

Neither of those amounts, which are gross amounts (for some people, SS retirement benefits are taxable for federal income tax and some states tax them as well) meet the requirement for a retirement extension of THB 65,000 per month, which mean some folks may need to transfer additional money to meet the monthly income requirement.

 

As I mentioned in my previous post, U.S. Social Security codes their ACH retirement benefit payments to comply with IAT requirements, which means those folks having a Bangkok Bank NY account are not paying SWIFT wire transfer fees to receive their SS retirement benefit in Thailand.

 

Of course, an American could simply receive his benefit via ACH from SS to his U.S. bank account and make one transfer meeting the monthly income requirement via SWIFT wire transfer or Transferwise - that will work, but leaves no backup if his U.S. bank decides to close his account because he is a non-resident. With the increased U.S. government emphasis on 'security' and 'eliminating the funding of terrorism', which brought us the IAT ACH requirements, it has become more difficult in recent years for U.S. citizens to maintain their U.S. financial accounts if they are not also U.S. residents.

 

U.S. Social Security or, more precisely, the U.S. Treasury (that actually pays SS retirement benefit), has a simple and reliable system for paying its beneficiaries that live outside the U.S.

 

And if someone needs to transfer additional income each month, from a fee perspective, Transferwise costs less than a U.S. bank SWIFT transfer; as well, Transferwise gives a great conversion rate which is something U.S. banks do not. Most folks, when speaking of U.S. banks' wire transfer fees, never seem to understand that they're being raped on the conversion rate and just how poor it is.

 

One thing to remember about Transferwise is that the cost increases as the amount transferred increases - another reason, in addition to having a backup source for receiving monthly income, for taking a free transfer (SS to BB NY) when one is available. 

 

The wrinkle in using Transferwise is that it seems that unless one's transfer goes to BB, the transfer is not coded as 'FTT' which a lot of folks believe may not be acceptable to Thai Immigration when it's extension time and monthly income, originating outside Thailand, must be proved.

 

Well, judging by a few of the very long threads about the cessation of income affidavits by the so-called 'Gang of Four' embassies recently and resulting quandary many people seem to believe that they're in regrading trying to prove their income for their next retirement or marriage extension, I'd have to say 'Yes' to your second point.

 

If one is using, for example, BB bank solely to receive the required monthly extension income and then using that income for living expenses, those transactions and the resulting average daily balance will be so small that the interest earned is not worth talking about.

 

That being said, although the THB 800,000 (USD 25,000) 'cash-in-bank' amount for a retirement visa really isn't that much, I agree with you that it belongs somewhere else earning a better rate and, even though those rates aren't much by historical standards and the monthly interest isn't a lot, I won't 'park' that amount in a Thai bank.

[marcusarelus]

I won't park 25 grand in a Thai bank = I'm really broke.  Interest lost for 3 months is coffee change.  Anyone needing that is really broke and should go home. 

 

We know, we know.  Yall don't have to try and make up convincing arguments anymore, honest.  It's OK to be broke.  Thai visa posters are not that stupid.  We know the story.  Don't worry it's ok. 

Edited January 26, 2019 by marcusarelus

[Pattaya46]

2 hours ago, tropo said:

As we have just received a report that Jomtien Immigration won't accept monthly deposits as proof of income, this could all be a waste of time.

You posted this news in several threads already.

Seems hard to believe from Jomtien...

Could you please give us (or link us to) the source ?

Thanks

[Jingthing]

7 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

You posted this news in several threads already.

Seems hard to believe from Jomtien...

Could you please give us (or link us to) the source ?

Thanks

Well, I don't know the current situation there but there were multiple credible reports last year (on another forum) saying they were told by head of immigration there that they would be accepting no income applications without embassy letters "next year" which is now this year.
That was before the new immigration memos this year that spell out mechanics of the 65K import method along with leniency guidance, but not one word about the combo method.

However I haven't heard any reports of retraction of the definitive reports from last year.

Hard to believe? 

Really?

Why is that?

This is a very new and radical change, income applications without embassy letters.

It's common for there to be enforcement variation between offices even for very established methods.

You're right to seek confirmation about their current policy. Perhaps others can help as we get reports from there.

But that might take a while. I reckon most people applying now have embassy letters from last year.

Edited January 26, 2019 by Jingthing

[Pattaya46]

22 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Hard to believe? 

Really?

Why is that?

Because Jomtien is very friendly and easy with retirees living there.

Express extension process; No TM.30 required; etc...

[Jingthing]

Just now, Pattaya46 said:

Because Jomtien is very friendly and easy with retirees living there.

Express extension process; No TM.30 required; etc...

To applicants that have the proper documents. That has included embassy letters for income methods. Hopefully they will get with the new programs, but I'm not surprised if any office at this time says we don't do that, it's your problem, your embassy cut off the letters, not our fault, it's not on us, come back with an 800K bank seasoned application or ba-bye. Not surprised at all. 

[jacko45k]

17 hours ago, Saladin said:

My Australian pension of around 40,000 per month is paid directly into Bangkok Bank by Social Security. One thing I don't get is whether the additional 25,000 that is required to meet the requirements can come in at irregular intervals and in varying amounts, or in one hit, or must it be in regular monthly deposits?

You can only go by what the order stipulates, and if I had control of it, I would make it as simple as possible. It you can, make it regular monthly deposits.

[onera1961]

On 1/25/2019 at 4:37 AM, Thomas J said:

Irrespective of whether it is 1 month, 2 months, or 3 months, isn't the system placing people in a catch 22 situation.  They can't open any bank account without a 1 year visa but are required to have a bank account to establish either the $65K baht per month pension or $800k baht deposit.

There are many ways to do it.

I opened an account with Bangkok bank using a Tourist visa and documents listed in their web site, including an embassy letter.

You can get an O/A visa from your home country eliminating any requirement for an extension for the next two years and take you time to open an account. If you at all desire. 

You can get a Thai (not a bar girl but with a a respected job like a teacher or a government job) to accompany you to open a bank account. 
You can walk around randomly to visit many branches and someone will open an account (most often quoted method in TVF but least practical way to guarantee any success)

You can pay an agent. 

If you're from an Asian country, you can buy an insurance to open an account. Very difficult for Americans due to FATCA

Remember the saying - where there is a will, there is way.

Edited January 27, 2019 by onera1961

[onera1961]

9 hours ago, Jingthing said:

To applicants that have the proper documents. That has included embassy letters for income methods. Hopefully they will get with the new programs, but I'm not surprised if any office at this time says we don't do that, it's your problem, your embassy cut off the letters, not our fault, it's not on us, come back with an 800K bank seasoned application or ba-bye. Not surprised at all. 

You then find an agent who will ask 15K, including 90-day reporting. And you don't have to import any money. Long live the agents. 

[Olmate]

12 minutes ago, onera1961 said:

You then find an agent who will ask 15K, including 90-day reporting. And you don't have to import any money. Long live the agents. 

It’s certainly cost effective now, considering transfer fees and hassle of new requirements re coding etc.Flight home and fees to re do OA there also are more costly.Stigma is the main drawback for many.

[steve73]

12 minutes ago, Olmate said:

It’s certainly cost effective now, considering transfer fees and hassle of new requirements re coding etc.Flight home and fees to re do OA there also are more costly.Stigma is the main drawback for many.

"Stigma is the main drawback for many."

But I'll bet most people are happy to pay one of the "boys-in-brown" when stopped for some real or imagined offence a couple of red ones rather than have to visit the local station to pay a proper fine...? 

[Olmate]

14 minutes ago, steve73 said:

"Stigma is the main drawback for many."

But I'll bet most people are happy to pay one of the "boys-in-brown" when stopped for some real or imagined offence a couple of red ones rather than have to visit the local station to pay a proper fine...? 

Exactly my point.. That’s ok and considered best option. But for some the agent route is bad news