Property/sublease issue(s)/I've been conned!

[newnative]

36 minutes ago, tcp7 said:

You pretty much summed it rather well, however and that's one BIG however, when the deal was originally struck:

 

- They told me it was for 7 years, Thai law states subleases are for a maximum period of 3 years. So they knew they were breaking the law making these contracts void to begin with.

- They knew very well well they were committing a "fraud" as they insisted I should sign 2 contracts, 4 years and 3 years instead of a single one for the entire assumed 7 years duration. If they were honest to begin with, why would they require me to sign 2 different contracts instead of just 1? That only proves their malicious intent.

- When I asked them to produce the contracts, they refused to do so, claiming they already had done so upon the signature day, which is a big fat lie.

- They produced 2 contracts in the end which were for respective durations of 3 years and 2 years, thus being 5 years, not 7, something is amiss here, it's not hard to see.

- The produced contracts are scanned printed outs and none of them contain my original signature, these contracts are not the original paper sheets I originally signed back in March 2018.

- The company stamp was never used to legalize said contracts and no witnesses were present either on that day, as it is usually done in Thailand, there's always more or less 2 witnesses for anything you sign.

 

In my eyes and in my book, they broke the law and these contracts are null and void.

 

    Except, I'm not sure what Company X has with you is a 'sublease'.  Your company is the owner and Company X leased your property.  So, what they have, in my thinking, is a 'lease'--which can be for up to 30 years.  When they turn around and rent the property out to a third party, or multiple parties, they will be 'subleasing' a property that they 'lease' from you.  

     My partner and I currently own a condo and we were approached to lease it for a year for 30,000 baht a month.  The person leasing the condo was then planning to sublease the condo to short-term renters.  I don't really see how your situation is any different from this.  We turned the offer down but if we hadn't, we would have made sure that in the lease contract any subleases would be for at least 30 days to be in compliance with Thai law.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, newnative said:

    Except, I'm not sure what Company X has with you is a 'sublease'.  Your company is the owner and Company X leased your property.  So, what they have, in my thinking, is a 'lease'--which can be for up to 30 years.  When they turn around and rent the property out to a third party, or multiple parties, they will be 'subleasing' a property that they 'lease' from you.  

     My partner and I currently own a condo and we were approached to lease it for a year for 30,000 baht a month.  The person leasing the condo was then planning to sublease the condo to short-term renters.  I don't really see how your situation is any different from this.  We turned the offer down but if we hadn't, we would have made sure that in the lease contract any subleases would be for at least 30 days to be in compliance with Thai law.

You are correct, the contract they have signed with me is a lease, not a sublease, I wasn't aware these were 2 different things.

 

At the moment they are subleasing the property to tourists who are visiting Pattaya for short stays only, a couple of weeks ago it was Russians who stayed for 5 days and at the moment it's Koreans who stayed for a week with 3 days left on said week.

 

The property is listed on Agoda, Tripadvisor and such, for very short term stays only at 2000 bahts a night which is very profitable to them, however according to what you've just said, they are not in compliance with the Thai law as these short stays are well below the required 30 days.

 

Let alone the fact they are most likely NOT reporting these short term stayers tenants to the immigration which I believe is also required by law?

 

Can I actually break and void our contract based on these 2 facts alone?

 

[HighPriority]

I think someone mentioned earlier, your condo was trashed and you had no money to repair and no time to make any arrangements.

I think you’re now saying that it looks like the contract will be void after a total of 3 years, which will net you 200,000 Baht and at least initially, a repaired condo suitable for habitation.

Yes they’ve probably taken advantage of you and will have made a good profit for themselves... “IF” they make their payment in March I think you would need to honor YOUR side of the contract.

[FritsSikkink]

1 hour ago, tcp7 said:

You are correct excepted the signed contracts are, invalid, null, void and a breach of the law?

I hope when you sue them, they will go to the police and tell them about your company situation, which won't be difficult as they use the same lawyer who did this for you.

[newnative]

3 minutes ago, tcp7 said:

You are correct, the contract they have signed with me is a lease, not a sublease, I wasn't aware these were 2 different things.

 

At the moment they are subleasing the property to tourists who are visiting Pattaya for short stays only, a couple of weeks ago it was Russians who stayed for 5 days and at the moment it's Koreans who stayed for a week with 3 days left on said week.

 

The property is listed on Agoda, Tripadvisor and such, for very short term stays only at 2000 bahts a night which is very profitable to them, however according to what you've just said, they are not in compliance with the Thai law as these short stays are well below the required 30 days.

 

Let alone the fact they are most likely NOT reporting these short term stayers tenants to the immigration which I believe is also required by law?

 

Can I actually break and void our contract based on these 2 facts alone?

 

    I think you need to check with your lawyer.  As a foreigner, I would only take Company X to court as a very last resort, and maybe not even then depending on all the facts; perhaps something can be negotiated that does not involve the courts.  Buying a house as a foreigner using a company works very well as long as you keep your head down and quietly go about your way and follow all the rules with yearly filings, etc.  When you force the courts to step in to settle something that has gotten messy, the results may not go your way.  Keep that risk in mind when you weigh your options.  

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

I hope when you sue them, they will go to the police and tell them about your company situation, which won't be difficult as they use the same lawyer who did this for you.

May I kindly ask, what is wrong with you?

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, HighPriority said:

I think someone mentioned earlier, your condo was trashed and you had no money to repair and no time to make any arrangements.

I think you’re now saying that it looks like the contract will be void after a total of 3 years, which will net you 200,000 Baht and at least initially, a repaired condo suitable for habitation.

Yes they’ve probably taken advantage of you and will have made a good profit for themselves... “IF” they make their payment in March I think you would need to honor YOUR side of the contract.

The problem for me is that the new girlfriend is pregnant, we are planning on keeping the child and getting married eventually, there's no way I'll raise my kid in a room filled with bugs/trash or in a farm village when in fact I own a property with 3 bedrooms, 1 swimming pool, 1 garage in "the heart" of Pattaya.

 

I have just spoken to my lawyer Mr. Jim a few minutes ago, he wasn't even aware of the 30 days sublease law thing that was discussed a couple of posts above, that is really not his field of expertise, however he's guessing the other party has no intent to honor their side by paying the agreed amount and therefore Mr. Jim believes we can break the agreement based on the fact they didn't honor their end of the deal/payment.

 

This is weird but it is actually the first time I hope someone who owes money doesn't pay up, what a weird world we live in...

[BritManToo]

19 hours ago, tcp7 said:

Then the most striking part, is, the contracts are no longer 4+3 years or 3+4 years for a total of 7 years but actually are 3+2 years for a total of 5 years... what the actual f-word?!?

Leases longer than 3 years need to be registered at the land office.

Which is why you now have 3 years (legal), + 2 years (not legal).

 

They can't enforce the second contract, after the first 3 years you can just move back in.

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, newnative said:

When you force the courts to step in to settle something that has gotten messy, the results may not go your way.  Keep that risk in mind when you weigh your options.  

Which is the main reason I don't understand why the initial lawyer Mr. Bob who built the corporate structure and took parts in it as being a nominee a few years ago won't even step up and try to find both involved parties a reasonable outcome without going to court.

 

I mean I suppose Mr. Bob could himself get into troubles for building such companies, and I've been told I'm not the only one in Pattaya using him...

[Guest]

1 minute ago, BritManToo said:

Leases longer than 3 years need to be registered at the land office.

Which is why you now have 3 years (legal), + 2 years (not legal).

What is the delay for registration of such leases anyways? I mean we signed in March 2018, we got a copy of the title deed with no mention of any contracts whatsoever back in December 2018... is there a delay between signature and registration at the land office?

 

Also does said registration appear on the title deed or is it on a different document? And can the other party register a lease without my presence at the registration time?

 

These questions are indeed, crucial.

[BritManToo]

3 minutes ago, tcp7 said:

What is the delay for registration of such leases anyways? I mean we signed in March 2018, we got a copy of the title deed with no mention of any contracts whatsoever back in December 2018... is there a delay between signature and registration at the land office?

 

Also does said registration appear on the title deed or is it on a different document? And can the other party register a lease without my presence at the registration time?

 

These questions are indeed, crucial.

They haven't registered any lease with the land office, which is why only the first 3 years contract is effective.

This isn't rocket science. They took a short-cut.

 

You don't have a leg to stand on for the first 3 years, assuming they pay the agreed moneys.

Wait until March 2021 to reclaim your house.

[HighPriority]

9 minutes ago, tcp7 said:

The problem for me is that the new girlfriend is pregnant, we are planning on keeping the child and getting married eventually, there's no way I'll raise my kid in a room filled with bugs/trash or in a farm village when in fact I own a property with 3 bedrooms, 1 swimming pool, 1 garage in "the heart" of Pattaya.

 

I have just spoken to my lawyer Mr. Jim a few minutes ago, he wasn't even aware of the 30 days sublease law thing that was discussed a couple of posts above, that is really not his field of expertise, however he's guessing the other party has no intent to honor their side by paying the agreed amount and therefore Mr. Jim believes we can break the agreement based on the fact they didn't honor their end of the deal/payment.

 

This is weird but it is actually the first time I hope someone who owes money doesn't pay up, what a weird world we live in...

No disrespect but “...a room full of bugs and trash...” don’t just appear from nowhere.

I can understand your perceived time pressures with the baby on the way, but it’s only 12 months... small change. 

If the money gets paid...

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Leases longer than 3 years need to be registered at the land office.

Which is why you now have 3 years (legal), + 2 years (not legal).

 

They can't enforce the second contract, after the first 3 years you can just move back in.

I guess that's not as bad as it looked at first. Let's see if they pay first and then see what's next.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

They haven't registered any lease with the land office, which is why only the first 3 years contract is effective.

This isn't rocket science. They took a short-cut.

 

You don't have a leg to stand on for the first 3 years, assuming they pay the agreed moneys.

Wait until March 2021 to reclaim your house.

Will see then if they are paying up...

[Guest]

1 minute ago, HighPriority said:

No disrespect but “...a room full of bugs and trash...” don’t just appear from nowhere.

I can understand your perceived time pressures with the baby on the way, but it’s only 12 months... small change. 

If the money gets paid...

12 months? you mean 24 months right?

[emptypockets]

OP....I think you were screwed the moment you became illegally the 100% shareholder of the company. (Leave aside the act of forming a company for the specific purposes of buying land is illegal according to some).

You must know that the maximum amount of shares you can hold is 49% with the remainder being held by a Thai national(s).

If I was you I'd be signing up the gf as the major shareholder yesterday if not sooner. 

I think this is the major issue you must address as a priority and then follow up the rest of it afterwards otherwise you do not have a leg to stand on. If the other parties used the same lawyer as you then it is highly likely that they are aware of the illegality of you owning the company as it stands.

If you take any actions before sorting out the company structure it would only take a word in the right ear and you could find yourself in a whole heap of trouble. 

I am curious about how you manage to stay here? Retired? Money in bank or monthly income?

Disabled, nearly broke, living in a flea infested s-hole room with a now pregnant girlfriend and numerous legal issues - all the makings of a thriller novel.

[emptypockets]

50 minutes ago, HighPriority said:

I think someone mentioned earlier, your condo was trashed and you had no money to repair and no time to make any arrangements.

I think you’re now saying that it looks like the contract will be void after a total of 3 years, which will net you 200,000 Baht and at least initially, a repaired condo suitable for habitation.

Yes they’ve probably taken advantage of you and will have made a good profit for themselves... “IF” they make their payment in March I think you would need to honor YOUR side of the contract.

It's a house not a condo hence the company formation and the subsequent difficulties.

[BritManToo]

3 minutes ago, emptypockets said:

If I was you I'd be signing up the gf as the major shareholder yesterday if not sooner. 

Give your kid 51% of the shares after the birth.

Forget the gf.

[HighPriority]

10 minutes ago, tcp7 said:

12 months? you mean 24 months right?

It seems that we’ve established that it’s a 3 year contract with no payment in the first 12 months, I’m assuming that the first payment is due at the end of the 2nd 12 months ?

Leaving 12 months and one payment as of mid March 2019 ?

unless I’ve miss understood and the payment is due at the start of the 2nd 12 months ?

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, HighPriority said:

It seems that we’ve established that it’s a 3 year contract with no payment in the first 12 months, I’m assuming that the first payment is due at the end of the 2nd 12 months ?

Leaving 12 months and one payment as of mid March 2019 ?

unless I’ve miss understood and the payment is due at the start of the 2nd 12 months ?

We were on the impression that payment was due at the beginning of each recurring year.

 

March 2018 - Signature - no money were exchanged but instead they fixed.

March 2019 - 2nd year starts here - 100.000 THB are due for the upcoming year.

March 2020 - 3rd year starts here - 100.000 THB are due for the upcoming year.

March 2021 - 3rd year ends here - I will just refuse their money.

 

However I might take a different approach on the 7th of March in case they haven't paid up.

 

Also this 30 days subrent law thing is rather interesting but I can't find any details about it through a google search, they are doing very short term rentals at the moment, 1 night here, 3 nights there, 7 nights over there and I doubt they report to immigration each of their short term tenants.

[BritManToo]

2 minutes ago, tcp7 said:

Also this 30 days subrent law thing is rather interesting but I can't find any details about it through a google search, they are doing very short term rentals at the moment, 1 night here, 3 nights there, 7 nights over there and I doubt they report to immigration each of their short term tenants.

Doesn't apply to a house, only condos.

[emptypockets]

13 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Give your kid 51% of the shares after the birth.

Forget the gf.

He might not be around long enough to see the new baby unless he does something now. The way his luck is he won't be the legal father anyway as they aren't married.

[Guest]

Just now, BritManToo said:

Doesn't apply to a house, only condos.

That is rather bad news. So let's just hope they don't get a hold of me and don't pay me in time, then I'll just use the non-payment as an excuse to cancel said contract and throw them out of my property and move in instantly.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, emptypockets said:

He might not be around long enough to see the new baby unless he does something now. The way his luck is he won't be the legal father anyway as they aren't married.

Already happened with the first girlfriend and first kid 8 years ago, sadly. Also fighting the ex girlfriend even though we aren't in touch anymore to get custody of my first kid, things are... "rough".

[BritManToo]

2 minutes ago, tcp7 said:

That is rather bad news. So let's just hope they don't get a hold of me and don't pay me in time, then I'll just use the non-payment as an excuse to cancel said contract and throw them out of my property and move in instantly.

As they haven't registered the lease, if you created trouble for them they would just claim they are managing the house rental for you ........ and you would be liable for the income tax on the rentals.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, BritManToo said:

As they haven't registered the lease, if you created trouble for them they would just claim they are managing the house rental for you ........ and you would be liable for the income tax on the rentals.

They will definitely do everything in their power to create trouble, the last time they spoke to my girlfriend he almost assaulted her, grabbed her motorbike keys and started to be physically abusive.

 

The girlfriend was too shy to complain to the police about the event no matter how much I insisted.

 

They are scam people.

 

Quick question as you seem rather knowledgable:

 

I am in possession of a copy of the title deed and all the documents related to the company the house belongs to, am I allowed to go to the PEA Power Administration and explicitely ask them to "unplug" the house? Then do the same with the Water authority of Thailand?

 

This won't get me very far but what good is going to be to them a house that does neither have electricity or water to it? They simply can't rent it, they will flat out lose money and might even want to return the house to me at some point?

 

Are there any legal drawbacks in suspending electric and water supply to my property?

 

[BritManToo]

4 minutes ago, tcp7 said:

Are there any legal drawbacks in suspending electric and water supply to my property?

Your 3 year contract is legally binding, until one of you breaks the conditions.

They could take you to court for damages if you deliberately stopped utilities, and you would lose.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Benroon said:

OK its moved on from legalities once he nearly assaulted your girlfriend - I understand you're disabled so unable to rectify that personally but its a very small amount of cash that can !

People in this country are definitely going to show no mercy even though you are disabled and in a wheelchair... it's baffling.

[sir charles IV]

Not sure if you’ve been conned. Admitting breaking the law in a public forum suggests lack of how you say ‘intelligence ‘. And all the difficulty that has been created could be attributed to your lack of sound judgement.


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[aamarsngh11]

Thank all, informative and reading.

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