U.S. House Democrats introduce sweeping 'Medicare for All' bill

[Thainesss]

21 minutes ago, samran said:

As for employee contributions... well done champ. Given the system you have, you are still paying 75% more than the rest of the world. 

 

And no, I wasn’t before Obamacare. The lefts holy legislation. Prior to that me and millions and millions of other Americans were doing just fine and in no way spending 75% more than “the rest of the world”. 

[samran]

6 minutes ago, Thainesss said:

 

And no, I wasn’t before Obamacare. The lefts holy legislation. Prior to that me and millions and millions of other Americans were doing just fine and in no way spending 75% more than “the rest of the world”. 

No no, of course you aren’t. Closer to double actually.

 

 

 

Edited February 28, 2019 by samran

[Thainesss]

Just now, samran said:

No no, of course you aren’t. 

 

Weren't** 

 

You can mock and insinuate im a liar all you want but the end of the day you don’t know jack. Just more outside, superficial gleanings. 

 

And the left can enjoy the steaming pile of dog doo that they’ve put themselves in over healthcare. 

[samran]

3 minutes ago, Thainesss said:

 

Weren't** 

 

You can mock and insinuate im a liar all you want but the end of the day you don’t know jack. Just more outside, superficial gleanings. 

 

And the left can enjoy the steaming pile of dog doo that they’ve put themselves in over healthcare. 

No there buddy. You’ve been world champions of paying more for less for a long time. 

 

But it keep telling yourself it was Obama’s fault if that is your mental safe space. 

 

 

[Thainesss]

6 minutes ago, samran said:

No there buddy. You’ve been world champions of paying more for less for a long time. 

 

But it keep telling yourself it was Obama’s fault if that is your mental safe space. 

 

You state 75% more than every other country. That’s false. 

 

Then you go on to use deceptive graphs comparing the USA’s full expenditure vs “comparable country average”. That’s weak. 

 

Go ahead. Move the goalposts some more. Not like you’ve been doing it non stop anyway. 

[samran]

15 minutes ago, Thainesss said:

 

You state 75% more than every other country. That’s false. 

 

Then you go on to use deceptive graphs comparing the USA’s full expenditure vs “comparable country average”. That’s weak. 

 

Go ahead. Move the goalposts some more. Not like you’ve been doing it non stop anyway. 

First time I’ve heard presenting facts and figures as ‘moving the goal posts’.

 

Feel free to present other numbers to back up your case in how the US (used to at least) spend less than the rest of the world.

 

 

[DM07]

I am absolutely confused, why ANYBODY would be against this?

Unless you are totally corrupt and immoral and in the pocket of the insurance companies and big pharma...of course!

Oh....wait....

[lannarebirth]

24 minutes ago, DM07 said:

I am absolutely confused, why ANYBODY would be against this?

Unless you are totally corrupt and immoral and in the pocket of the insurance companies and big pharma...of course!

Oh....wait....

Americans have been conditioned to hate each other. This makes them easy to manipulate by powerful monied interests.

[ricklev]

54 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

Americans have been conditioned to hate each other. This makes them easy to manipulate by powerful monied interests.

True, but let's be honest, one party has abandoned almost all efforts at creating rational public policy in favor of hate, lies, confusion and misinformation.   Thirty to forty percent of republicans still believe that Obama was born in Kenya and Clinton was part of a child sex trafficking ring.   

[Thainesss]

2 hours ago, samran said:

First time I’ve heard presenting facts and figures as ‘moving the goal posts’.

 

Feel free to present other numbers to back up your case in how the US (used to at least) spend less than the rest of the world.

 

So weve gone from “the us pays 75% more than every other country (lie) to “more like 50% of a select few countries” all the way down to comparing it to “select country averages” and the final goalpost shift in this ridiculous back and forth is “prove the US pays less than the rest of the world” - all of which are arguments you made up in your own head. 

 

All because you you just can’t fathom or get your head around how millions and millions of Americans just like me have been getting screwed out of thousands and thousands of dollars for government mandated abysmal policies. 

[Thainesss]

1 hour ago, ricklev said:

True, but let's be honest, one party has abandoned almost all efforts at creating rational public policy in favor of hate, lies, confusion and misinformation. 

 

Thats a bit rich. Bet your bottom dollar that if liberals had their way they wouldn’t give 2 shits about the right in any legislation they make. 

 

As can be seen repeatedly in this thread alone. No one in this thread gives a flying turd about the millions and millions of Americans that have been lied to and manipulated over healthcare and any legitimate greviences they have are met with disbelief and blame. 

 

We don’t want to be playing the blame game here. Dems will have to eat it. 

[samran]

1 hour ago, Thainesss said:

 

So weve gone from “the us pays 75% more than every other country (lie) to “more like 50% of a select few countries” all the way down to comparing it to “select country averages” and the final goalpost shift in this ridiculous back and forth is “prove the US pays less than the rest of the world” - all of which are arguments you made up in your own head. 

 

All because you you just can’t fathom or get your head around how millions and millions of Americans just like me have been getting screwed out of thousands and thousands of dollars for government mandated abysmal policies. 

 

I don’t know how you do your maths but $5280 is the comparable average and $10224 is near enough to double. That is near enough a 100% difference.

 

I was being generous with my 75% estimate.

 

You are 27% more expensive than Switzerland, and 78% more expensive than Germany, both, which rely on private (but comprehensive) insurance systems.

 

Now tell me, when was the US cheaper again than the rest of the world for medical care?

 

We are all waiting with baited breath. 

 

Oh, and how are the graphs deceptive? Don’t you believe OECD numbers? Or just are all graphs that don’t support your flaccid argument ‘deceptive’.

 

Yeah, and where do you think Obama was born? Just interested to know as a point of reference.

 

 

Edited February 28, 2019 by samran

[samran]

5 hours ago, Thainesss said:

 

It is not, and never will be a “cost” to the government of funds they didn’t even have in the first place. You can squirm and wiggle and use quotes around the word ‘cost’ but that literally isn’t what cost means. 

 

Its almost like you’re taking crazy pills that are making your brain break. 

 

 

Just so we’re clear here, the premise of your and jingthings entire argument is that employers should be paying more tax on benefits that they give to their employees, which in turn alleviate government spending (actual cost. Real, actual cost. Not your made up definition) on its population? And that it’s “welfare” for doing so? 

 

Yep. Crazy pills. You’re taking crazy pills. 

Again, just because you don't like the definition, doesn't mean it isn't the one which is formally used.

 

" Economists and tax analysts tend to use the term “tax expenditures” (ie Tax breaks) because such special-purpose breaks are effectively the same as direct spending – Congress can appropriate $150 billion for health care or provide an indirect subsidy worth $150 billion through the tax code"

 

"That’s the total estimated impact for fiscal year 2016 of the nearly 200 major “tax expenditures” – government lingo for tax breaks – that come in the form of exemptions, deductions, credits and other special provisions, according to an annual staff report from Congress’ Joint Committee on Taxation. Even that $1.3 trillion figure is an understatement, as the report only gives specifics for a tax expenditure if it’s estimated to cost the government $50 million or more per year; dozens of breaks fall below that threshold".

 

" The biggest individual tax break was for employer-paid health care, health insurance and long-term care insurance, none of which is counted as taxable income. That provision cost the government an estimated $145.5 billion last fiscal year, and is estimated to cost $143.8 billion this year. "

 

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/04/06/the-biggest-u-s-tax-breaks/

 

Now again, just because you don't wish it to be, donesn't mean it isn't. Mighty nice in your little individualist fantasy land. Its welfare alright, plain and simple. You just don't like being told you are a recipient.

Edited February 28, 2019 by samran

[BobBKK]

On 2/27/2019 at 5:30 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

In this case I support the Dems 100%.

The US health system, from my perspective, is terrible and all about profit, when it should be about people needing health care. 

However, they need to take care it doesn't become hijacked by the politicians, bureaucrats and management as the NHS has been.

Nonsense I was a NHS manager for years and your comment is ignorant. More 'The Sun' BS.  The people of the UK are the luckiest in the world to have the NHS 'free at the point of delivery' and the Dems can wish all they want but it will never happen in the US. More political 'noise'.

[samran]

7 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

Do folks really think a Gov. health care is good? They will only allow expensive treatment as long as you are "viable" How are you going to feel being told that?

Cause I’ve been through it and that is total crap. Cancer, bone marrow transplants. 

 

Everything and the kitchen sink is thrown at it in world class facilities. Can’t fault it. Excellent doctors and nurses. Treatment was only stopped at our request. 

 

*Deleted post edited out*

All we paid for was $20 per day for parking. 

 

Other friends have had had liver transplants done. Air ambulance between cities was provided, again, world class doctors.

 

For more mundane things, I can see any GP I want when I want. 

 

don't believe the BS you are being fed. 

Edited February 28, 2019 by Scott

[EVENKEEL]

26 minutes ago, samran said:

Cause I’ve been through it and that is total crap. Cancer, bone marrow transplants. 

 

Everything and the kitchen sink is thrown at it in world class facilities. Can’t fault it. Excellent doctors and nurses. Treatment was only stopped at our request. 

 

All we paif for was $20 per day for parking. 

 

Other friends have had had liver transplants done. Air ambulance between cities was provided, again, world class doctors.

 

For more mundane things, I can see any GP I want when I want. 

 

dont believe the BS you are being fed. 

Age and locations is needed.

[samran]

2 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

Age and locations is needed.

Australia - the rest I’m not telling. You’ve probably got a disposition to disbelieve it anyway. 

Edited February 28, 2019 by samran

[EVENKEEL]

14 minutes ago, samran said:

Australia - the rest I’m not telling. You’ve probably got a disposition to disbelieve it anyway. 

Age will be a major factor in having proper health care. I don't think we're ready for it in the US.

[Chomper Higgot]

18 minutes ago, Thainesss said:

 

Be willing make a gentleman's wager that you will have contributed alot more into the system of socialized medicine than you will ever get in return. 

Which is why the US pays more per capita for healthcare than the UK while failing to provide universal coverage.

 

Doh!

[samran]

20 minutes ago, Thainesss said:

 

Be willing make a gentleman's wager that you will have contributed alot more into the system of socialized medicine than you will ever get in return. 

Dear lord. You know that is the whole purpose of insurance and how it works? Contribute and expect most people will never need to touch it, so you can compensate the few who do?

 

In any case, you'd be wrong. Bone marrow transplants conservatively run at $250K a pop. We had two of them. Add to that probably 6 months of hospitalization, not to mention home care etc. How much do you think that would set you back in a US hospital?

 

Anti rejection drug was $2000 for a 50ml vial. Add to that the A$2000 per month I received in carers payment from the government.

 

Oh and no copay.

[samran]

9 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

Age will be a major factor in having proper health care. I don't think we're ready for it in the US.

Age - and longevity and better technology is pushing up the cost of health care in most western countries that is for sure. To balance that out some you need young people contributing to the system.

 

The US always seems to be dragged kicking and screaming towards sensible reform. Medicare, Social security etc. All were viciously opposed.

[sqwakvfr]

It this happens it would be the largest single payer system in the world.  Posaibly over 300 million people to serve.  The conversion process would take years.  

[Longcut]

On 2/27/2019 at 5:57 AM, lannarebirth said:

 

The Democrats only introduced it because they know it doesn't have a chance in hell of passing. It's just an opportunity to embarass Republicans. Most "mainstream" Democrats don't want universal healthcare any more than Republicans do. It's the money they love. And in America everything's about the money.

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/kirsten-gillibrand-fundraiser-donations-pfizer-executive-2019-2

Did they also pass legislation legalizing the growing of money trees to pay for this? People over 65 on Medicare paid into it all their lives. At least their working lives. Now the Dems want to give it away for free.  Imagine that?

 And I'm still paying for it every month even though I can't use it outside of the United States. 

Edited February 28, 2019 by Longcut

[sqwakvfr]

One more point,  Medicare in it’s current form has 4 parts: Inpatient, Outpatient, Managed Care and Drugs.  Currently if one is qualified then he or she is issued a Medicare Card and gets more or less free care at hospitals that accept Medicare.  Other costs are out of pocket or one needs to buy a Medicare Gap, Supplemental or Advantage policies from private insurance companies.  Therefore, I doubt the US can implement any health care program similarly to what NHS currently offers.  This is why I doubt this “Dream of Nationalized Health Care for all in the US will always be a dream.  There are too many commercialized interest to let this happen.  These interest just have too many lobbyist in The Swamp.  

[samran]

38 minutes ago, Thainesss said:

 

What about the people that contribute nothing? 

It’s universal. You figure it out. Unless you like people dying on the street. 

 

As you say, people contribute directly and indirectly, depending on their circumstances. 

 

 

[Prissana Pescud]

All democracies are based on a fundamental notion of a society.

Society mostly means advancing the living standard.

Also believing everyone in the society can con tribute toward advancement.

But societies always should protect everyone of their citizens. It is a no brainer.

Weed out the rorters, protect those in your society that are doing it hard or need medical assistance.

Heath care is a pert of being in a society.  

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎2‎/‎27‎/‎2019 at 10:48 PM, GroveHillWanderer said:

According to an article published on the website of the US National Center for Biotechnology Information (link below) private medical practices in Canada are not illegal 'per se' rather it is the case that in:

Article on private health care in Canada

 

By contrast, as the article also mentions:

As far as I'm concerned this is a less restrictive/better arrangement.

I worked in the NZ and UK hospitals that have consultants working in both public and private, and IMO the system is corrupt. In the UK I worked for the NHS and had to assist consultants operate on their private patients ( no extra pay for doing so ), and in NZ there was a consultant that operated on risky patients privately and when it went wrong,  sent them to the public hospital to be treated at taxpayer expense. Far better to have Drs work either private or public.

[thaibeachlovers]

11 hours ago, samran said:

Age - and longevity and better technology is pushing up the cost of health care in most western countries that is for sure. To balance that out some you need young people contributing to the system.

Aged people are by far the biggest cost on a public health system. Unless it is to become unaffordable, hard choices have to  be made.

What happens when AI means most young people will never work a proper job? "Do you want fries with that" is not going to fund much ( minimum wage ).

[thaibeachlovers]

11 hours ago, samran said:

Australia - the rest I’m not telling. You’ve probably got a disposition to disbelieve it anyway. 

Do you have to pay to see a GP? In NZ the cost of seeing a GP can prevent poor people from seeing one. There is no reduction in fees for pensioners, so they have to pay the same as a working millionaire.

[samran]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Do you have to pay to see a GP? In NZ the cost of seeing a GP can prevent poor people from seeing one. There is no reduction in fees for pensioners, so they have to pay the same as a working millionaire.

GP’s can either ‘bulk bill’, meaning you swipe your Medicare card and nothing is charged, but some may change an extra $20 on top of the Medicare rebate. 

 

There are a lot of clinics - where there are 5 or 6 GP’s on roster where your just turn up and these are easiest to get to see someone of you’ve got a bog standard complaint. These are becoming more common as they catch a bigger customer base and the GP’s can share the admin cost. These places tend to bulk bill (or swipe your card and off you go) and the GP’s get paid the standard set visit charge.

 

For more specific things I tend to see my local GP, a long term person who knows me. She tends to charge the $20 extra if you come before midday but the sessions are longer and a bit more focused. 

 

There tends to be a good balance between these two places. Pensioners, veterans and those on concession cards (students, unemployed) are usually waived the extra $20. 

 

As you’d probably know,  but our more suspicious American cousins don’t, basically all GP’s in Australia are in private practice. They aren’t employees of some socialist state machinery which tells them when and where to work and pay them a pittance. 

 

 

Edited February 28, 2019 by samran