Flat Battery - Trickle Charging?

[richard_smith237]

I came back from 4 weeks away...  my Bike (BMW G310GS) was flat... nothing, no indicators lights etc... 

The Battery was 100% flat.. 

 

I tried to use the Power Bank Jump start - The bike would start but as soon as I removed he Power Bank Jump starter the bike just died. 

BMW recovered my Bike to the Dealership - after a few hours of attempting to charge I was informed that the Battery had run flat and had been flat for a while (a few weeks) it was damaged and would not charge more than 6v.

 

BMW ordered me another battery under warranty. It was explained that they could do this only once as I had accessories installed which voided the warranty - Fair enoug I thought. Actually quite good of them. 

 

I didn’t want to wait the 8-9 days it would take for delivery of a new BMW battery so purchased another (same specks, but not BMW for 2400 baht).

 

After reading up a little more it would appear that the power drain is from my INNOVV K2 Camera (front and rear facing) - its wired in correctly but still has some drain (an INNOVV issue which, as I understand it they are trying to resolve). I can simply disconnect the Cam when I go away for 4 weeks at a time, but that’s a faff, so I may just wire in an on-off switch (easy enough I think). 

 

Now.... that’s the background, so on to my question: 

 

I have purchased a CTEK XS 0.8 charger...(its a 6 step smart charger - just plug and forget type thing).

 

My issue with this is that I live in an Apartment and the Charger is plugged into the mains at the Car Park. Thus any electricity I use will not be registered on my meter. The Apartment owner may not be happy about this (they can be a little awkward about simple things - but in this case I understand). 

 

Thus: I’d like to have an idea of how much electricity this CTEC XS 0.8 charger may use over the course of 4 weeks.

 

Charging Current: Max 0.8A / Charging Voltage: 14.4 VDC

 

If anyone has any idea - I’d be grateful... 

 

Thanks in advance.. 

 

 

 

[tonboy]

14,4 V x 0,8 A = 11,52 Watt 
with some losses maybe only 20 Watt every hour
x 24 hours x 7 days x 4 weeks = 13,440 Kwh 
x 4,5 thb = 60 thb for 4 weeks continious charging IN WORST CASE



 

[richard_smith237]

Much appreciated...

 

where did did you get the 20KW (with some losses from) ? 

 

Thanks again... 

 

 

 

Edited February 27, 2019 by richard_smith237

[Kwasaki]

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

I have purchased a CTEK XS 0.8 charger...(its a 6 step smart charger - just plug and forget type thing).

Can you not easily take the battery off and leave on trickle charge in your apartment. 

I thought it was quite good of BM too. 

[richard_smith237]

5 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Can you not easily take the battery off and leave on trickle charge in your apartment. 

I thought it was quite good of BM too. 

I prefer not to... for a couple of reasons... 

 

1) Its a ball-ache doing that every month.

2) Charging a battery in an enclosed space is not recommended (risk of H2S from over charging and risk of hydrogen leakage)

3) If I forget simply plugging in a charger is something my Wife can do in 60 seconds.

 

I have installed a ‘pig-tail’ to the battery, so that needs to be done is plug the charger in at the mains and plug into the ‘pig-tail’... very simple. 

 

 

The only issue is the potential for the Owner of the Condo to get petty about using electricity, the owner is nice, but the daughter who we deal with lacks common sense and can sometimes get hung up on some pretty minor issues. Having the right answer straight away puts the issue to bed before it has a chance to snowball and irritate me... 

 

[Kwasaki]

2 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

I prefer not to... for a couple of reasons... 

 

1) Its a ball-ache doing that every month.

2) Charging a battery in an enclosed space is not recommended (risk of H2S from over charging and risk of hydrogen leakage)

3) If I forget simply plugging in a charger is something my Wife can do in 60 seconds.

 

I have installed a ‘pig-tail’ to the battery, so that needs to be done is plug the charger in at the mains and plug into the ‘pig-tail’... very simple. 

 

 

The only issue is the potential for the Owner of the Condo to get petty about using electricity, the owner is nice, but the daughter who we deal with lacks common sense and can sometimes get hung up on some pretty minor issues. Having the right answer straight away puts the issue to bed before it has a chance to snowball and irritate me... 

 

OK understand but turn off those camera thingys and the battery should be OK for 4weeks, my Yusa  battery is fine left for longer than that at the moment because it's only 1 & 1/2 years old. 

[richard_smith237]

1 hour ago, Kwasaki said:

OK understand but turn off those camera thingys and the battery should be OK for 4weeks, my Yusa  battery is fine left for longer than that at the moment because it's only 1 & 1/2 years old. 

Yep... I’m thinking installing a switch. However, my concern there is not turning it back on on the day someone pulls in front of me and I need the footage.

 

The whole idea of installing a cam rather than using a Go-Pro helmet mounted cam is that its always on, always powered up, never gets forgotten, forward and rear facing etc... and removing the possibility for human error (my error in turning it off and forgetting to turn it on again).

 

The best solution I came up with is the ‘trickle-charger’ that can be plugged in over night once a week when I’m using the bike (to fully charge the battery as the alternator usually only keeps the battery at about 80% - if I’m not mistaken) and have the trickle / smart charger hooked up permanently when I am away for a few weeks or a month (and the bike is covered up).

 

 

And... and in the summer the bike may not be used for 3 months when we take a long family vacation. The trickle charger seems to be the solution - or at least disconnecting the battery totally - but then I’m wondering if it would be ok sitting there for 3 months or would that damage it ?

 

[Cricky]

6 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

My issue with this is that I live in an Apartment and the Charger is plugged into the mains at the Car Park.

I have a CTEK 5.0, these are not cheap chargers.

I would be more concerned about the charger being stolen. 

[richard_smith237]

6 minutes ago, VYCM said:

I have a CTEK 5.0, these are not cheap chargers.

I would be more concerned about the charger being stolen. 

That’s ok... I don’t charge it at Big C... 

 

My Apartment is small... has 6 floors (1 unit per floor - 2 parking spaces per unit). Ground level is parking with 24 hr security. The risk of theft is extremely minimal. 

 

The charger is 2500 baht - so not crazy expensive... 

[Damrongsak]

20 Watts when on max charge is assuming about 60% efficiency for the charger.  It's probably better than that.  But that's only until the battery is fully charged.  After that, it would just compensate for the camera drain and normal loss.  You could hook up an ammeter to the battery and measure the current with the bike off but the camera on.  I can't see it costing more than 10 Baht a month assuming it would need to be charged one day per week.

[stud858]

Cost. Negligible. Unnoticeable on their bill.

Tell them it's a power saving device and they should pay you.

[Damrongsak]

2 hours ago, stud858 said:

Cost. Negligible. Unnoticeable on their bill.

Tell them it's a power saving device and they should pay you.

Or a theft alarm that beeps when it's unplugged. 

[richard_smith237]

6 hours ago, Damrongsak said:

9 hours ago, stud858 said:

Cost. Negligible. Unnoticeable on their bill.

Tell them it's a power saving device and they should pay you.

Or a theft alarm that beeps when it's unplugged. 

Haha.... Telling them its an anti-theft device is a good idea...  

Unfortunately a charger is pretty easy to identify (especially if the 'owners-daughters-husband' gets involved). 

 

I reckon the best option for me is to Just plug it in a see (i.e. don't ask permission on the basis of never asking a question you may not like the answer to)... and be prepared with a power usage answer when / if they complain to my wife (as they never complain directly to me !).

 

 

I was thinking along the lines of:

Max possible usage:

((14.4v x 0.8A) x 24 hrs) = 276.48 Watts per day

x 30 =  8294.4 Watts per month / 8.3 KW per month (8.3 units) x 4.5 = 37.3 baht per month.

 

However, the battery is maintained / topped up to 14.4v and never below 12.5v... at 0.8amps

Expected Usage: 

((1.9v x 0.8A) x 24 hrs) = 36.48 Watts per day

x 30 =  1094.4 Watts per month / 1.01 KW per month (1.01 units) x 4.5 = 4.92 baht per month.

(I know it doesn't truly work like this but its looks neat and is readily explicable)

 

Either way the usage is incredibly low and in the event they kick up a fuss I can present them with information that indicates the cost is negligible - the step is getting them to understand when / if they enquire - To quote someone "If you can't explain it to a 5 year old you don't truly understand it yourself" !!!....

 

Thanks for all the input... 

 

 

 

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

connect the camera electricity feed to the bike's ignition switch,

then it will not be forgotten.

 

trickle charging is healthy for batteries, trickle for 4 weeks probably OK,

3 months I wouldn't do

 

I have a couple of chargers that ends its cycles with a period of trickle,

after that the charger goes into hibernation for 1 week, wakes up and goes

quickly through all the cycles then back to hibernation for another week

while hibernating the charger feels the battery voltage

should the voltage drop the charger wakes up and goes through the cycles again

 

I leave my batteries on this the year round, sound

 

 

 

[Kwasaki]

14 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

Yep... I’m thinking installing a switch. However, my concern there is not turning it back on on the day someone pulls in front of me and I need the footage.

or at least disconnecting the battery totally - but then I’m wondering if it would be ok sitting there for 3 months or would that damage it ?

 

I think melvinmelvin post #14 has the best solution.????

[richard_smith237]

51 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

connect the camera electricity feed to the bike's ignition switch,

then it will not be forgotten.

Yes.. that's exactly what I've done... The Camera only comes on with the Bikes Ignition... however, there is also some additional draw on the current as the Camera can be set to record in parking mode (which I have turned off), for some reason there is still some draw on the battery (which INNOVV are attempting to resolve). The Camera also stays recording for 60seconds after the ignition is turned off, it also requires continued power while it writes the files etc... so its a little more complex than simply On / Off with the ignition

(there are 3 wires to connect with this camera - Live, Earth and another live via a smart box to the fuse terminal)

 

51 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

trickle charging is healthy for batteries, trickle for 4 weeks probably OK,

3 months I wouldn't do

 

I have a couple of chargers that ends its cycles with a period of trickle,

after that the charger goes into hibernation for 1 week, wakes up and goes

quickly through all the cycles then back to hibernation for another week

while hibernating the charger feels the battery voltage

should the voltage drop the charger wakes up and goes through the cycles again

 

I leave my batteries on this the year round, sound

 

 

The plan is to trickle charge for periods I'm away for more than a week and for periods I'm going to be away for longer than a month (i.e 3 months in the summer) I'd disconnect the battery and trickle charge in the Apartment (probably using the out door maids bathroom for ventilation).

 

I think the CTEC has similar functions to your charger with 6 modes: 

De-sulphation - Bulk Charge - Absorbtion - Analysis - Float - Pulse (which I assume means the battery is continually analysised and conditioned as required and can be left plugged in all year I wanted). 

 

Certainly after digging into this for a day or two battery chargers and batteries are far more idiosyncratic than I imagined and require care. 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

1 minute ago, Kwasaki said:

I think melvinmelvin post #14 has the best solution.????

 

Definitely - thats what the plan has always been.... 

 

I just needed to work out the power draw on the Apartment communal power on the off-chance the Apartment owner decides she doesn't like me plugging into 'her' mains and starts to get a little fussy... 

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

10 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Yes.. that's exactly what I've done... The Camera only comes on with the Bikes Ignition... however, there is also some additional draw on the current as the Camera can be set to record in parking mode (which I have turned off), for some reason there is still some draw on the battery (which INNOVV are attempting to resolve). The Camera also stays recording for 60seconds after the ignition is turned off, it also requires continued power while it writes the files etc... so its a little more complex than simply On / Off with the ignition

(there are 3 wires to connect with this camera - Live, Earth and another live via a smart box to the fuse terminal)

 

 

The plan is to trickle charge for periods I'm away for more than a week and for periods I'm going to be away for longer than a month (i.e 3 months in the summer) I'd disconnect the battery and trickle charge in the Apartment (probably using the out door maids bathroom for ventilation).

 

I think the CTEC has similar functions to your charger with 6 modes: 

De-sulphation - Bulk Charge - Absorbtion - Analysis - Float - Pulse (which I assume means the battery is continually analysised and conditioned as required and can be left plugged in all year I wanted). 

 

Certainly after digging into this for a day or two battery chargers and batteries are far more idiosyncratic than I imagined and require care. 

 

 

 

yes, batteries are kinda complicated and if you fancy giving them a long life they need to be taken well care of,

in particular in warm climates like in LoS

and batteries are individual animals, no two batteries are identical,

so one charger for two or three batteries is sound for the wallet, less so for the batteries

 

I have two Victron (well known Dutch manufacturer/brand) 12V/25A chargers,

one for each battery

somewhat simpler than yours, they do bulk/absorption/float/wee bit of trickle/hibernate

 

I have two separate units for de-sulph, a UK product, Stirling I think

 

Chargers are IP67 the de sulph units are IP68

 

pleased with this set up, works well, reliable

and the batteries are well fed and they both enjoy it

 

[richard_smith237]

I've received this response from CTEK below:

 

1.08KWh per month - at 4.5 baht per unit it's 4.86 baht...  a minuscule amount - but at least I have something to prove that to the owner should they take issue with me charging on the communal mains. 

 

---------

 

Hi

Here is a simple way to find out what it costs in electricity to charge a lead battery with a CTEK charger.
I have earlier made a calculation on a 75Ah battery below like this: 


Battery voltage, BV = 12V
Battery size, B = 75Ah
The battery charge level, Bl = 50%
Battery efficiency = 87%
CTEK charger's efficiency = 80%

Calculate:

Energy consumed from the grid to charge the battery to full (A)
First, how much energy we need to complete the battery?
12V x 75Ah x 50% = 12x75x0.5 = 450Wh

How much energy the charger must supply of the battery efficiency?
450Wh / 87% = 450/0.87 = 517Wh
How much energy must the grid to the charger in the light of efficiency?
A = 517Wh / 80% = 517 / 0.8 = 647Wh or 0.647 kWh.

Answer:

It takes 0.647kWh to charge the battery with the given data.

You may count on 80% efficiency for all models of CTEK chargers.

Vary the battery size (Bs) and the charge level (Bl) to count on other cases
The charger draws 1.5W of input power from the grid, on average, while in maintenance mode, (ie Mode 7 or 8.)
It makes it in one day pull 24 x 1.5 Wh = 36Wh/24h
On a 30-day month making it 30 x 36 Wh = 1080Wh = 1.08kWh/Month

It takes 1.08 kWh to keep the charger maintaining the battery with the given data.

With an electricity price (including elcert, energy tax, VAT tax, transfer fee o VAT on it) for example
0, 18 euro/kWh so it costs around 0,18 euro/month to maintenance charge a battery.

It differs not very much between batteries of different sizes, at least until the batteries less than 150Ah.

Best regards,
CTEK SUPPORT TEAM