Expats in Thailand considering moving to Latin America prompted by Thai visa changes

[CaptainJack]

Ok,

 

Here is what it all gets down to. I fly to MC Wednesday.  I have a bunk reserved for 7 days to sort out finding a place to rent. Find a place to rent, then enroll in a Spanish language class.  Try to create some normality in my life.  

 

This my friends is what it looks like to make a move to a Latin American country, unless you are rich and can buy your way through all the logistics and issues.   If you have that much money,  stay in Thailand.  

 

If this next step fails, it is repatriate to the USA and figure out what I want my remaining years to look like.

 

I will let you know how it goes for me in a few weeks.  

 

My thanks to Jingthing and SiamAndy for your help and support, and to all those that have been following this journey. 

 

If I'm ever back in SE Asia, I'll drop a post.

 

Cheers.....

 

CJ

[keemapoot]

12 hours ago, CaptainJack said:

Bottom line is this.  What you think will work sitting in the comfort of your apartment or home in Thailand may not work in real life, especially under stress.

 

Ok, enough on where things are in my head.  I am lucky. I have time, resources and options.   I don't need to make any major decisions, only minor course corrections

Your bottom line is exactly what I have been saying on here, and you are providing a valuable on-the-ground and in the region scouting report based on your own experiences, observation and those of fellow travelers in the region. 

 

At retirement age, It would be extremely unwise to uproot from a place (where ever that is), where you are relatively comfortable, safe and happy to move to anywhere you haven't personally visited and spent meaningful time the way you are doing it now. Anyone seriously considering leaving should definitely plan to make the investment of an extended trip as nothing virtual can really tell the story based on each person's individual perceptions, talents and background.

[Jingthing]

Yes, the exploration phase is important for most people. For people already living in Thailand the logistics and expense can be daunting as Latin America is a big place with lots of options.

That's a reason I think it is important to do screening of all the choices beforehand. 

The easiest way to narrow down possible nations is to learn about their visa requirements. Starting with the basic ones, financial requirements. If you can't meet them for a particular country, think of that place for potential tourism only. However, Latin America's programs mostly have lower level financial requirements, so the majority of people that can financially qualify for Thailand, can also qualify for most of the Latin American programs.

But it's a start.

So then you have your initial list of possible nations.

From there, you get into evaluating your personal priorities.

So many categories, many mentioned here before.

Such as --

Do you need a beach?

Do you need there to be a large English speaking expat community?

Can you really learn enough Spanish to be functional?

Do you value security and safety over hot nightlife scenes?

Do you need the country to offer access to their national health program?

 

Then you can really narrow the choices so that a targeted exploration becomes more realistic and much more affordable. 

 

Edited March 19, 2019 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

OK, this is a bit of a detour, but with a reason.

Often expats living in Thailand see a binary choice, live here or go home.

But happily it's not.

This lady has a great spirit. Her only income is an 800 dollar social security check. That check is a little under the requirements for some Latin American programs, but may still be good enough for a few. 

She's living in a car. She has a toilet in her … car.

People talk about safety and risks of living in Latin America.

But what of the risks of living in poverty in the U.S.?

Car or a nice apartment in a nice neighborhood Latin America? Is it really such a hard choice?

I realize most of us living in Thailand are not as poor as this lady, typically higher income, retirement savings, etc. 

But I think this video still makes a point to anyone that is on the lower end of the wealth scale.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 19, 2019 by Jingthing

[Andrew Dwyer]

OK, this is a bit of a detour, but with a reason.
Often expats living in Thailand see a binary choice, live here or go home.
But happily it's not.
This lady has a great spirit. Her only income is an 800 dollar social security check. That check is a little under the requirements for some Latin American programs, but may still be good enough for a few. 
She's living in a car. She has a toilet in her … car.
People talk about safety and risks of living in Latin America.
But what of the risks of living in poverty in the U.S.?
Car or a nice apartment in a nice neighborhood Latin America? Is it really such a hard choice?
I realize most of us living in Thailand are not as poor as this lady, typically higher income, retirement savings, etc. 
But I think this video still makes a point to anyone that is on the lower end of the wealth scale.
 
 
 
 

Courageous women, although she lives like this thru lack of options I guess .

An interesting video, skip mins 4,5 and 6 if you’re eating as she discussed, in detail, her toilet ritual ????.

[keemapoot]

Courageous women, although she lives like this thru lack of options I guess .

An interesting video, skip mins 4,5 and 6 if you’re eating as she discussed, in detail, her toilet ritual ????.

Yeah that part was particularly depressing. Gotta feel sorry for people like this with no options but yes brave lady.


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[Jingthing]

23 minutes ago, Andrew Dwyer said:

Courageous women, although she lives like this thru lack of options I guess .

An interesting video, skip mins 4,5 and 6 if you’re eating as she discussed, in detail, her toilet ritual ????.

Yes her optimism and spirit of survival is remarkable. I also like that she points out something positive about that experience that wealthier people often don't have -- sharing a community with the other campers.

However, this isn't very much a choice for this woman. She feels this is her main chance of surviving at all. It may seem an extreme example but I don't think it's that unusual for older people of limited means to be in such dire straits, or worse. 

I feel she is very vulnerable living like that. That's in her home country. 

The point in posting it was kind of pushback to the everyplace in Latin America is too dangerous tropes. More dangerous than what?

If you've got the funds to live comfortably in the west, that's going to always be the dominant choice. 

But people that don't, retiring abroad can be an option (and for Americans that usually means Latin America). 

Edited March 19, 2019 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Now I feel a bit guilty for highlighting the woman living in her car. Based on viewing it, it seems obvious she wouldn't want anyone's pity. She has a level of self reliance that is certainly beyond me. She's a survivor. I can't picture myself surviving that way. 

But the reason to show it was so that people might reflect on the harsh material realities for many people living in western countries on low fixed incomes, and that some of them could do better or even much better, living abroad. 

Edited March 19, 2019 by Jingthing

[seasia]

Interesting

 

She has spirit, admirable.

Minimalist lifestyle , nothing wrong with that.

 

I am a little curious, noticed some camper vans in the background,including the one with the car parked up to it s nose.

Looked OK.

 

Is that a camp site/travelers site ?

Would they be paying a site fee ?

Nice blue sky.

[keemapoot]

22 hours ago, seasia said:

Interesting

 

She has spirit, admirable.

Minimalist lifestyle , nothing wrong with that.

 

I am a little curious, noticed some camper vans in the background,including the one with the car parked up to it s nose.

Looked OK.

 

Is that a camp site/travelers site ?

Would they be paying a site fee ?

Nice blue sky.

Probably free site yes but it's probably what's known as a boondocker site. most people would be shocked to know how expensive it is to live the "RV" lifestyle, although her vehicle is about the least attractive RV I've ever seen. Most RV sites charge from the lowest price of about $30 to up to $70/80 night close to in in major metro areas. These places have toilets/showers, services, laundry, RV hookups etc., but the average someone pays per night in these places is about $50 nationwide. Even the government official campgrounds cost $30. The only other alternatives that require no payment use a method called boondocking, which means staying in the wild for free, but obviously no services. I go back to the US annually, and I haven't seen any decent hotel for less than about 100/night, and even airbnbs are now expensive.

 

Life is pretty damn expensive in the USA if you don't have a home and have to rent.

[Jingthing]

I'm trying to learn Spanish mostly by doing duolingo app, watching some youtube videos, and Spanish language t.v. and movies.

I'm realizing that duolingo will never lead to being conversational. 

It's more of a supplement kind of thing. For that, I think it's good. 

But I now feel like I'm going down the wrong road and I need a correction.

If I was living in Latin America, I would take a formal group course, but not possible here.

I've watched a bunch of youtube videos and they all seem to have conflicting advice, and also they usually are trying to make money on selling something.

So, what the heck, might as well ask here?

Have you tried something that worked for you that really worked?

Like to really learn and really speak, not just gimme a beer and where is the toilet?

 

 

 

[metempsychotic]

On 3/4/2019 at 4:38 PM, Jingthing said:

Please, for obvious reasons, this topic can't be focused on sex tourism or sexpats. There are specialized forums for people that want to discuss that in detail. Not here. 

perhaps try your luck on another forum then. because sexpat is all that is on offer here

[Jingthing]

53 minutes ago, metempsychotic said:

perhaps try your luck on another forum then. because sexpat is all that is on offer here

I don't think so.

[Jingthing]

I just discovered these similar new concept websites, Yabla and FluentU.

Immersion by video.

Very interesting. Not free.

 

https://spanish.yabla.com/

https://www.fluentu.com/

[CaptainJack]

Hi,

 

Just a quick check in and report.  Ok, I have survived bouts of depression, feelings of failure and loneliness,  but am finally at a place I can stop, take a pause and center myself.  I really did almost make a terrible mistake.   My plans to fly to Bogota and pursue a retirement visa in Columbia could have gone so wrong.  I am so thankful for the young Canadian gal I met in the hostel I met in Merida.  I can't believe that in all my research,  i never came across the organized crime robbing people at gunpoint for their cellphones.  She and three other travelers were all robbed,  once my the police. 

 

I made the decision to eat the airfare and instead fly to Mexico City,  where I will move into a furnished apartment in one of the nicest parts of MC. 

 

I have a six month tourist visa to sort out my future plans. 

 

Tonight I am dining at one of a thousand sidewalk cafes after a nice, cool weather walk in a lovely park.  And the traffic is not that bad compared to Bkk and the polution nothing compared to Bkk.

 

Now, I can finally relax and rest.  This has not been an easy process.  I have been winging it, only a few steps ahead of what felt like pending disaster.  I have said this before.  Don't do this unless you have a really good reason.   I did.

 

So, the people here are very nice.  I am met with much kindness and help. A man in my hostel today took time to show me around my area.  He explained in English the history,  where are good places to live and not so good. 

 

The police here are respectful and helpful.  

 

I will enroll in a Spanish language class soon. If living here, it really is necessary. 

 

I'll report back at some point,  but, I think I am over the hard part.  The future? I don't know right now.  See what happens over the coming months. 

 

Wishing all good health and fortune. 

 

CJ

 

PS. My rent, includes all utilities,  Internet and cable is 1200 us a month. I don't need a car here. That is not possible in the USA....

 

Cheers...

 

 

 

 

Edited March 22, 2019 by CaptainJack

[Jingthing]

Enjoy one the greatest cities in the world.

[seasia]

Hi keemaot

 

Thanks for explanation on costs, I did not know.

 

So at your average figure of $50 a night  it is going to cost  $ 1500 a month just for parking up, let alone other costs.

Yes expensive.

 

As an "outsider "  looking in some things in US seem far cheaper.

 

e.g. petrol is about 76c a litre, yes ?

 

In the UK it is the equivalent of 1.86 cents a litre.

Edited March 22, 2019 by seasia

[Jingthing]

The elephant in the room?

 

As I've mentioned before, I think it's wise for each person considering a move to another country to consider their own personal priorities and then measure that against what they find a particular country and more specific destinations in that country might satisfy. Obviously that includes must haves and can do withouts, pros and cons for each possible choice. 

 

Another way to narrow things down so that time and money you might spend are focused on higher probability good options for you.

 

An elephant for me?

Speaking Spanish.

I don't. I have a poor history as a linguist and "they" say things don't get any easier as you get older.

Some people have a natural talent for learning new languages, and you know who you are.

I know who I am. The opposite!

 

This could be a total deal breaker for any plans I may have to move to Latin America.

There are limited options for those that have evaluated their language aptitude and motivation realistically and acknowledge they'll never speak much Spanish beyond Hola and Buenos dias. 

Generally they would be higher cost options to move to more "international bubble" kinds of places. 

I don't know them all but I reckon the central part of Cuenca Ecuador (where there is a core of North American expats that generally hang up together), the tourism centers in Puerto Vallarta Mexico and Cartagena Colombia, perhaps Miraflores in Lima Peru would be manageable enough without Spanish. 

But these aren't really my choices for various reasons. Generally the bubble zones are going to be more expensive as well. 

So for this to work, something I am trying to figure out probably BEFORE even bothering with an exploration trip is to prove to myself that my brain is even capable of becoming low level fluent. No quick fixes of course. Real fluency takes years. But I'm not confident that I have what it takes.

So what I'm doing from here is to try to get to a place where I'm convinced myself that I actually CAN get there someday. I'm not even close to that. It may never happen. I don't know yet. I'm not sure exactly what it might be that tells me, Si se peude, but I think I would know it if I ever feel it.

So without feeling that, no, I ain't going there, and that's just the way it is.

Those of you that already speak Spanish of course you have a huge edge. 

 

Edited March 22, 2019 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Is Medellin safe enough?

This somewhat dated article breaks this down in detail.

Much of it Medellin specific but there is also some excellent information and advice that would apply to cities in Latin America (and elsewhere) more generally. 

 

https://medellinguru.com/medellin-security-safety-tips/

[Jingthing]

This link gives me a better idea of the residency part of the Colombian visa system. But I still have a question about it. There is technically no "permanent" residence option there, which is not good, but otherwise the system seems quite excellent and easy.

 

https://medellinguru.com/retirement-visa/

Starting with three year retirement visa which is what most people start with.

People without retirement pensions do have other options. Younger people can get work visas (yes English teaching is popular) or open a business with a certain investment, etc.

 

Anyway, here is the current path using retirement --

 

Start -- 3 year visa

Continue -- 3 year visa

 

Option -- keep renewing 3 year retirement visas indefinitely OR choose to apply for a residence visa after 5 years on the retirement visa

 

I reckon most people at that point would apply for residence though. 

 

If residence, then apply for new residence after 5 years.

 

What about AFTER that 5 years?

 

Two choices -- Apply for citizenship after 5 years residence visa (so that would be 10 years after your start with the first retirement visa)

 

OR 

 

Continue with residence (presumably for additional 5 year increments).

I'm unclear on that process to continue with residence after the first 5 years but this item indicates it would not be the same as a new application for residence, but rather a transfer process. That seems to be good news, but not entirely clear.

Strangely there doesn't appear to be any financial requirements for applying for residence

 

Bottom line -- under the current system, via retirement, you can stay 10 years based on three applications (two retirement and one residence) and after that choose to continue on residence 5 year chunks or apply for citizenship. 

 

In any case under the current rules (subject to change of course) their system sounds like a quite easy path to at least a 10 year legal stay.

 

https://medellinguru.com/resident-visa/

 

 

Edited March 22, 2019 by Jingthing

[keemapoot]

4 hours ago, seasia said:

Hi keemaot

 

Thanks for explanation on costs, I did not know.

 

So at your average figure of $50 a night  it is going to cost  $ 1500 a month just for parking up, let alone other costs.

Yes expensive.

 

As an "outsider "  looking in some things in US seem far cheaper.

 

e.g. petrol is about 76c a litre, yes ?

 

In the UK it is the equivalent of 1.86 cents a litre.

Yes, the costs simply for reserving and parking in the space are average $50/night. In addition to that, you will pay for any services that you connect to, water, electric, propane, sewage, etc.. You also pay to use the showers and everything else. True that petrol costs are lower than most places in the world, but the idea that being a roaming RV nomad cruising on route 66 and across the US is a cheap and romantic lifestyle is wrong. There are tons of RV lifestyle sites that break down specific costs. Some people buy RVs that costs hundreds of thousands, more than most people's homes. But the costs of this lifestyle are not cheaper than stationary life unless you are going rough boondocking it in the wilds, and then the forest rangers are always chasing you away, as well as the bears.

[Jingthing]

Armenia Colombia SAFER than Pattaya?

Who knew?

Index	Armenia	Pattaya
Crime Index:	49.26	57.31
Safety Scale:	50.74	42.69

https://www.numbeo.com/crime/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Colombia&country2=Thailand&city1=Armenia&city2=Pattaya

 

[CaptainJack]

 

Information post.

 

I have found an immersion Spanish language class, four hours a day that looks good. Will cost about 130 usd a week.  No choice but to pay what it costs.  There is no lazing around with this program.   It is either learn to speak Spanish or go somewhere else. I will wait until the first Monday in April to learn my way around more.

 

Hasta luego!

 

 

Edited March 22, 2019 by CaptainJack

[Puwa]

7 minutes ago, CaptainJack said:

Information post.

 

I have found an immersion Spanish language class, four hours a day that looks good. Will cost about 130 usd a week.  No choice but to pay what it costs.  There is no lazing around with this program.   It is either learn to speak Spanish or go somewhere else. I will wait until the first Monday in April to learn my way around more.

 

Hey Captain, I'll be in La Condesa next week on business. If you are in that part of Mexico City, I'd be happy to meet up for a beer. 

[balo]

I think Colombia is cheaper than Mexico, $1200 montly is more than I am willing to pay. But it's difficult to beat the cost of living in Thailand , Cambodia or Vietnam. 

 

 

 

 

[Jingthing]

6 hours ago, balo said:

I think Colombia is cheaper than Mexico, $1200 montly is more than I am willing to pay. But it's difficult to beat the cost of living in Thailand , Cambodia or Vietnam. 

 

 

 

 

You can't make such generalized country comparisons based on a temporary furnished apartment in a very good neighborhood in a capital city. You need to compare like to like to really get a sense of pricing. 

[Gecko123]

On 3/18/2019 at 9:50 PM, CaptainJack said:

Another made the observation that many locals, and I found this to be the case also in Mexico,  speak English,  but will not.  They consider it our responsibility to learn Spanish.  Several of the people I was with last night had traveled a lot in SE Asia, and their take was locals in the SE Asia area do not expect English speakers to know their language.   Here, and I have found this definitely true in Merida,  Mexicans will watch you struggle, and occasionally step up in really good English to help

Is the 'sink or swim' attitude about learning English that you found in Merida the same in Mexico City? I was surprised to hear that English isn't very widely spoken in Mexico City, it being the capitol and all. Actually, that attitude about learning Spanish really appeals to me, because it gives ample opportunity for practice. When everybody speaks English, learning a new language can really be frustrating.

[Jingthing]

Sink or swim may be useful for some, but for others, they will sink … 

[Cryingdick]

On 3/22/2019 at 8:54 AM, keemapoot said:

Yes, the costs simply for reserving and parking in the space are average $50/night. In addition to that, you will pay for any services that you connect to, water, electric, propane, sewage, etc.. You also pay to use the showers and everything else. True that petrol costs are lower than most places in the world, but the idea that being a roaming RV nomad cruising on route 66 and across the US is a cheap and romantic lifestyle is wrong. There are tons of RV lifestyle sites that break down specific costs. Some people buy RVs that costs hundreds of thousands, more than most people's homes. But the costs of this lifestyle are not cheaper than stationary life unless you are going rough boondocking it in the wilds, and then the forest rangers are always chasing you away, as well as the bears.

 

You can camp in any national forest free of charge. Have a battery and inverter and you can charge it when you drive or use a small Honda generator if needed. Paying $50 a night is insane. You can get an RV or better yet travel trailer with a shower and toilet. 

 

A decent travel trailer used is around $10,000 and something to tow it with maybe the same.  If you are paying $50 a night, water, sewage, electricity, showers will be included and it is pretty likely that you will also get wifi in the deal. Propane is always on you because your stoves hook to the tank that you have on your RV. 

 

Rangers in a national forest will only bother you if you stay more than two weeks at the same spot. Your post makes me think you have never done any of this yourself.

[CaptainJack]

Hi!

I'll post a single reply to the various questions.   First, some catch up.  Ok, MC is more expensive.   I have been dealing with my own emotions by giving myself for time to rest, slow down and calm.

 

I got freaked out a few days ago and thought about bailing.   Then, I met a very nice Mexico man, a Chemical Engineer who speaks English and in his free time he has become a new friend.  Omg! This has made all the difference in the world.

 

I was feeling really isolated.   Not so much now.  MC is just an amazing city.  We went downtown Saturday night. It's just not possible to describe.   Suffice it to say, we had a great time.

 

Ok, accommodations? The hostel I have been in is in La Condesa.   It is close to lots of very Western/Latin restaurants and coffee places.  The weather beautiful.   Only 24 degrees outside.  Sitting at an outdoor cafe.  

 

One of the things I freaked out about was that even in the short time I was gone from the USA,  because I had sold my car an possessions, repatriation has lots of issues.  Proof of residence just to get a car loan,  and passing a history check to rent an apartment! Good grief.

 

Anyway,  I'm way better today. I'm starting to understand MC better.  Why MC? It feels like home.  It's like being back in Austin on a cool spring day.   My body and mind feel good here.

 

Lodging? I move into an Airb&b Wednesday for a week.  I'll have my own place for 7 days.  Expensive,  but I can manage it short term.  I have found a local agency that has furnished apartments.   Now that I'm learning the Metro and Metrobus, I may pick a place further south to get my costs down.

 

On the Spanish language classes.  I'll probably enroll in one in a few a month.  For now, I can manage.   First priority? Get an apartment so I can settle my mind, body and spirit.  Oh! I can walk miles for exercise here with these cool temperatures.   I could not do that on Bkk.

 

I don't have a lot to share, other then slow down, breath and get one thing done at a time.  I'm not being rude, but i can't really take time to answer each individual question.  Sorry.

 

Bottom line? I feel better, healthier and safer here.  For me, as everyone knows, the threats presented by immigration in Thailand exceeded my limits.  I am here, a 6 month renewable tourist visa and have nobody making me jump through ever changing hoops.  I really cannot live my life like that.  The other issue was medical care.   I am 3 hours for the USA.  It would not be fun to have to go back and navigate the system for a medical emergency,  but I have that option. 

 

I'll report in on where in MC I rent an apartment and hold much in a few weeks 

 

I am now starting to manage my cash better.  I just decided to not worry about it for the first month.   I can only manage so much at one time.  

 

Wishing all well,

 

CJ

Edited March 25, 2019 by CaptainJack