Concerned In Run Up To New Rules

[dr_Pat_Pong]

I'm very surprised to hear the news about Penang.

Is Penang a consulate run by Malaysians or an Embassy outpost?

I ask because the BNE consul told me last August that Penang would be under new (flexible) management, similar to BNE by now.

I think that Penang has been hobbled by the Thai Embassy in KL. The usual way it goes is a temporary cessation and then it is business as usual

[CM451]

Interesting subject coming from many of you. I predicted this would happen months ago, and more is yet to come starting this July. Shortly thereafter you will be seeing a mass exodus no doubt. If you want to know why, simply ask Immigrations for the answer.

Some of you has hit the nail in the head. With the long term visa's, getting one around here will be very hard indeed and paperwork with tea money will not suffice. You will be forced to really leave the country and return to your origins to get the long term visa eventually. Now once there finding such consulate may become a daunting task, because they too are under the noose to comply with their orders as given. Also with this they now want to see a few more things to confirm your income and banking and earnings and all will have to match accordingly before such is going to be issued out. Sad to say, yes they are beginning to pry into our private affairs, and they also are going to want to know a lot of your private incomes and how much you actually have etc. Besides weeding out the tricksters, backpackers etc., and of course the hidden nomads that exist here.

So many of us expats now have to really think hard and look into the mirror and review your incomes and prospects of long term stay here. If any of you cannot comply with the new rules that are about to take effect, and if you are married and have familys here, and have homes here or businesses, you might be literally forced to leave and to sell etc, if you cannot meet the new criterias so set forth by the Government. If this is the case some of you might want to start making the plans right now while you can and have such opportunity and get your family secured and all set to go with you on your exodus just to be together etc. rather than be leaving them behind. To me the family is important. On the other hand some of you might be able to make it for another year or two, but what happens after that when they again increase their criterias which they do plan on doing within the near future. This is only the beginning.

Nothing we can do but grit our teeth for the worse is yet to come.

Daveyo

So many of us expats now have to really think hard and look into the mirror and review your incomes and prospects of long term stay here.

If you are not married to a thai, not needing to work, not 50 years old, you really have no legit request for a visa (other than tourist). I guess the million B card is for this group? I just wanted to point out you don't have to be a backpacker or a under-funded guy married to a thai, or some guy working under the table to be S.O.L. in the L.O.S.

[IsaanAlex]

DaveYo has said it all, as far as I'm concerned.

I saw bad things ahead and left Thailand this past October (2003). I didn't return this past April because things looked too hokie and I wanted to see what's yet to come with these new regs....

I think it was a good move and if things continue to souyr in Thaland I'll bring my wife and kids to join me here in Korea, in short order.

Things aren't looking up for farangs in Thailand.

IA

[udon]

I think that Penang has been hobbled by the Thai Embassy in KL. The usual way it goes is a temporary cessation and then it is business as usual

Dear Doc... I do hope that you are right

[sabaijai]

I have had several clients tell me that Thai diplomatic posts within SE Asia have told them that they are allowed only to issue 90-day, single-entry non-immigrant entry permits to third-country nationals applying there - for the (absolutely correct) reason that if you seek to remain in Thailand for more than 90 days, you must meet Thailand's specified criteria for being granted long-term stay - and in that case, only a single entry 90 day visa is needed. If you meet qualifying criteria for long-term stay, as soon as your are within 30 days of expiration,you apply for a long-term extension. With that, you no longer need any visa - you just need a re-entry permit. So - anyone in this category would not be concerned about only receiving a single-entry 90 day visa.

Citizens of the country in which the Embassy is located are still allowed to get one-year multiple-entry visas. The restriction is just on third-country nationals. In effect, they have a fairly clear profile of low-income foreigners who can't meet criteria to obtain long-term entry permits, and they figure that most of these individuals will not have money to return to home countries for proper one-year visas. So this becomes somewhat of a self-selecting process - if you scrape your way to Penang or Vientienne, they are going to force you to either meet long-stay requiremnents properly within 90 days, or hit the road.

I believe that this policy has been in place since before the APEC Conference last September.

I know nothing of the specifics, but - in general - I think that the overall trend is toward eliminating the fairly comical past pattern whereby the visa issuance practices of Thai diplomatic posts in the region were almost tailor-made to allow low-income westerners to achieve perpetual defacto residence, without meeting Immigration Bureau's published criteria for long-term stay.

Good luck!

Indo-Siam

I think that sums it up very well. For those of us who can qualify for long-term visas under these conditions, it all seems very reasonable. For those who can't (DaveYo, IsaanAlex, etc), it seems like a conspiracy aimed at farangs, ar even at them as individuals.

Thai immigration regulations apply to all nationalities, not just Caucasians. I don't see that the legislation treats farangs any differently than other immigrant groups. The Japanese, for example, are sitting right at the top of the income requirements for work permits, alongside Americans, etc. For non-work related visas, the income requirements are the same for all nationalities. I'd guess that more Asians apply for long-stay visas than farangs at any rate.

I imagine somewhere there's a Chinese or Japanese forum on Thai immigration where individuals who don't meet the requirements are complaining 'They just don't want us Chinese / Japanese here anymore.'

[marquess]

Does anyone know what the position is for Non Imm O''s outside of Asia. For example the States. Would it still be possible to get one with the necessary paper work?

[george]

Does anyone know what the position is for Non Imm O''s outside of Asia. For example the States. Would it still be possible to get one with the necessary paper work?

Yes, possible at the smaller Thai consulates in US (Houston), UK (Hull, Birmingham) and Australia (Brisbane, Adelaide). Just to name a few.

[rockhardbkk]

I just got back from the Thai embassy in Cambodia and was told I could have a single entry non-immigrant O. No multiple entries, period. Tourist visa is a different story though.

[CM451]

I think that sums it up very well. For those of us who can qualify for long-term visas under these conditions, it all seems very reasonable. For those who can't (DaveYo, IsaanAlex, etc), it seems like a conspiracy aimed at farangs, ar even at them as individuals.

Wow, do you think there is a third group that can spot a trend... and isn't so self- absorbed they can acknowledge it might not be a good trend?

Somehow, I think the line they cross that affects you is when it stops being "very reasonable", and when you say "us" you think everyone agrees with you. Sabaijai,Are you a Republican from America by the way? (not a personal attack, maybe I like American Republicans)

[surfercaesar]

It seems to me that the controls are tightening up and am surely feeling that the Thai gov't doesn't want any foreigners to stay for an indefinite period of time.

This saddens me personally for it seems that it is starting to be the "Land of Frowns" instead of the " Land of Smiles".

I just hope for the others that they can sort out their visa problems and be allowed the freedom of choice of where they want to live, whether here or somewhere else.

Good luck to everyone!!!

[Tattytam]

Hi there,

does anyone know the deal with females ie me, who have thai children? My son was born in Thailand and has a thai passport as well as a british one. I currently have a mulitple enty Non immigrant 0 visa which runs out in sept. (Presumably I won't have any trouble doing a border crossing using my current visa? - I need to re-new on the 16th of this month and am planning a trip to Ranong.)

I have only ever showed my son's birth certificate to get a non imm o visa in the past - no-one has ever asked me for financial standing, which is lucky cause I haven't got a bean! Just to clarify, I am not married, but have been with my son's partner, living in Samui for 4 years now, I don't work - except 24/7 taking care of our son!!

Oh and anyone in Koh Samui, would you advise going to the Samui immigration for advice?

Can anyone give me any advice or point me in the right direction? Thanks,

Tam

[brahmburgers]

It's human nature for dems dat gots their visa look down their noses at dem dats having problems. The Thai gov't keeps shooting itself in the foot with every visa switch. What ends up happening is many of the low lifers they want to eliminate are able to twist the system to be able to stay in Thailand - while many decent folk are being forced to pack up their tent pegs and split. ...for other places where they can put their help people without having to worry about legalities.

Try this on for size: tell an immigration authority that you got gadzillions of bucks you want to throw at Thailand. Chances are they'll love you. Then tell another authority that you've got some unique and tangible methods for helping a local village produce a commercially viable product that will increase the residents' income. The official will look at you cross-eyed as if you tried to sell him property on Uranus.

Money is all that gains important peoples' attention in Thailand. All else is bunk in their view.

[Khun ?]

Tattytam

England would be west from Samui

brahmburgers

A baht a story for these hardluck stories would make a person rich.

[Guest fj2003]

thailand waere nicht thailand

wenn die reichen nicht nochreicher

und die armen noch aermer werden

und die korruption nicht ein *g* neues gesicht bekaeme

tasmanien oder thaksinien

egal wir kaufen alles

ein deutscher freund in thailand

[IsaanAlex]

For those who can't (DaveYo, IsaanAlex, etc), it seems like a conspiracy aimed at farangs, ar even at them as individuals.

Wrong assumption; I can .

I dislike basing the right to abode with ones Thai family strictly on money. It should be considered, but should not be the sole consideration, IMO.

What about the fact that we have Thai wives and children? What about the fact that some of us started to make plans, such as purchasing property and throwing roots, and then started to get blindsided by new regs.

And what of those of us that can now meet the requirements but may not be able to in the future. <deleted>, why is it 400,000 baht in the bank? Why not 1 miilion? Is 40-60,000 baht/ monthly enough to support a Thai family? Some pompous ass will surely say no; but strangely enough the Thais can do it on much less-and it's a requirement of the Thai government.

I just think it's all nonsense and can't be bothered. If I didn't currently have the means to avoid it all, then you wouldn't hear a peep put of me;I'd just be slinking off to my job, and kow-towing to my thai employer for the right to stay in Thailand with my family...

IA

[sabaijai]

Somehow, I think the line they cross that affects you is when it stops being "very reasonable", and when you say "us" you think everyone agrees with you. Sabaijai,Are you a Republican from America by the way? (not a personal attack, maybe I like American Republicans)

Not a Republican from America. In fact I'd guess it would be Republican types who would be most unhappy with a trend towards more government regulation .

Didn't mean to come off sounding smug. Merely pointing out the obvious, that those who qualify under current regs are generally reasonably satisfied with them, those who don't qualify are generally not very happy with them.

CM451 I suppose you're implying that Thai immigration is perpetrating some great injustice. Maybe you're right. That's another issue altogether.

I'm not one of the (many) members on this forum who like seeing lower-income tourists or expat residents squeezed out of Thailand. In fact I don't like it one bit. But that's what's happening and there's little we can do about it as non-citizens. You can either find another country like IsaanAlex or try to find a way to qualify.

I can't imagine the regs in Korea would be much different, but then I couldn't handle either the weather or the cost of living there myself

[IsaanAlex]

I can't imagine the regs in Korea would be much different, but then I couldn't handle either the weather or the cost of living there myself

The regs are night and day between Thailand and Korea. Someone told me that the Koreans likely wholesale imported many of their laws from a western country, most likley the USA. But I don't think it's possible as many are even more straight foreward.

As a foreigner working here I have a legal E-2 Visa. Having this Visa opts me into their pension system and medical system and also gives me the right to bring my wife and kids here to do the same (on the latter).

I think schooling is also covered for my kids, but they won't be going to a Korean school, so that's moot.

Basically, after my employer sponsored me, I make one trip out of the country, applly for an Alien Registration Card and then I'm good for a year, until I must renew.

Those married to Koreans have it better. Same process but different Visa and more relaxed work requirements. They can basically change employers and/or freelance (I'm not 100% on the specifics but know it's a good deal). They also get the right to abode and don't need to work if they don't want/need to.

They get this Visa automatically upon presenting themselves after marriage-little to no wait.

Koreans aren't Thais, but the added certainty of living her makes it preferable, for the moment anyways...

IA

[ovenman]

Didn't mean to come off sounding smug. Merely pointing out the obvious, that those who qualify under current regs are generally reasonably satisfied with them, those who don't qualify are generally not very happy with them. 

Which will always be the case until one finds themselves in the latter category rather than the former.

The underlying problem I see whether you qualify under the current rules or not, is the uncertainty the future holds in dealing with the Thai authorities. Sure, this uncertainty could well be the case in any country but it does appear that the Thai authorities are starting to make a concerted effort to weed out those that they consider to be undesireable, that term seemingly defined by how much money you have or have coming in. You or I could easily be next...

I would really hate to be a retiree in Thailand at the moment, living on a fixed-income, having made a commitment to live out my years in Thailand, and waiting with baited breath each year to see if the powers-that-be have doubled the income requirements without any grandfathering clause.

[sabaijai]

The underlying problem I see whether you qualify under the current rules or not, is the uncertainty the future holds in dealing with the Thai authorities. Sure, this uncertainty could well be the case in any country but it does appear that the Thai authorities are starting to make a concerted effort to weed out those that they consider to be undesireable, that term seemingly defined by how much money you have or have coming in. You or I could easily be next...

I would really hate to be a retiree in Thailand, living on a fixed-income, having made a commitment to live out my years in Thailand, and waiting with baited breath each year to see if the powers-that-be have doubled the income requirements without any grandfathering clause.

Agreed, on both points. That's why anyone who has definitely decided they want to live out their years in Thailand should move out of non-immigrant status and apply to live here as an permanent resident or citizen. PR can be obtained for 'family' reasons, on the basis of many years on a family support/marriage visa. For those on business/work visas it's also available.

[IsaanAlex]

That's why anyone who has definitely decided they want to live out their years in Thailand should move out of non-immigrant status and apply to live here as an permanent resident or citizen.

I think citizenship is just a dream for many; an unobtainable one for all practical purposes. That leaves Permanent Residence.

The only problem with that, as I see it, is that the Thai government can always change those rules mid-stream, retroactively, whatever...

The have a serious credibility problem that could only be hedged against by citizenship, IMO. And I've already commented on what I think the chances of getting it are for most people.

At a minimum, it means getting through the 3 years of Visas, then the few more of Permanent Residence.

In some stranger, more desperate moods, I've often thought to myself that this is the pain before it gets better. I think " Maybe they will open up citizenship-which would bring it in line with 1st world countries-but just want to choke out the people that they'd never want as citizens first...

IA

[meadish_sweetball]

One idea for them to start with, might be to smoothen/shorten down the process of applying for permanent residency and citizenship, and increasing the quotas, but trying to put some rules into place that actually check out the background of the people applying, without these comparatively high monetary demands.

People who do honest non-profit work here should not be ruled out! Especially not the ones who have been doing it for a long time, because the impact on the communities they support will be considerable.

[ovenman]

One idea for them to start with, might be to smoothen/shorten down the process of applying for permanent residency and citizenship, and increasing the quotas

I've never gotten the impression that the Thai authorities have any genuine desire to see more foreigners living here with what one might term "official" status.

[Tattytam]

Cheers Khun ?

[sabaijai]

The only problem with that, as I see it, is that the Thai government can always change those rules mid-stream, retroactively, whatever...

Do you mean after obtaining permanent residency? That hasn't happened so far and I think it's unlikely to happen.

If you mean PR may be harder to obtain in the future, well yes that's a very real possibility, which is why folks on long-term non-immg visas should be working towards PR, if they in fact want to be permanent residents.

This is similar to the whole debate on this forum about using tourist visas to stay here long-term. Some argue if you're doing that you're not a tourist, and should be going for a proper non-immigrant visa. Likewise you could argue that if your purpose is to immigrate to Thailand, then you should eventually trade in your years on a non-immigrant visa for a residence card. I've never heard of a Thai residence card being revoked, once granted.

Anyone who has been in Thailand for three or more consecutive years on a non-immig visa can apply for PR (there are other requirements as well, but this is the central one -- then it depends on which category you're going for, eg, retiree, business, expert or family).The current quotas seem more than sufficient, as my sources at immigration say virtually no country reaches its 100-immigrant quota in a typical year.

Edited June 12, 2004 by sabaijai

[Felt 35]

If they really wanted to make this Visa comedy clean and straightforward they could easily do. Then we had to apply for both work permits and resident visas from our home countries, married or not, and they could easily check if we where acceptable.

Just as most of the Thais have to do when they immigrate to another country.

But how should it go with the corruption then, and the impolite, parasitemoneyslobbers behind it!

Just fine without us!

Well it wasn’t just fine without us in 1997.

“But that’s forgotten and now we ride high on the horse again. Well I hope they fasten the saddle better this time.”

[IsaanAlex]

Do you mean after obtaining permanent residency? That hasn't happened so far and I think it's unlikely to happen.

It may be unlikely to happen but Thailand has very little due process, and changes, if they do happen, can wreak havoc on peoples lives.

When in the past did 2-3000 'drug dealers' get gunned down in a 3 month period?

On this issue, anything short of citizenship and I would feel vulnerable in Thailand. You are only a guest and can be booted if they got the idea to do so.

The answer would be to get citizenship; I mean, we know the process-but even that can change-and it's definitely not a 'for-sure' thing, even if you meet the requirements on paper.

This year the requirements for an O-Visa, a part in the process (for those married to Thais at least) will be 400,000 baht in the bank. What for the future?

In almost 3 years will Immigration be sitting around saying, " It almost time for the 400,000 baht crop to apply for Permanent Residence, let's bump up the financial requirements up to 600,000/800,000/X...

Maybe I'm pulling a "The sky is falling trip"...but I know that jumping through all of the hoops for the big payoff (citizenhip), is personally not worth the reward to me. I'll be in my early 40's by then , with many years of falling behind in my earnings thinking, "Yes!, finally a stakeholder in a 3rd world banana republic!"

Forget it.

Thailand should be honored to have even half of the people who want to live there actually do so. It would do them more good than harm, IMO...

IA

[CM451]

CM451 I suppose you're implying that Thai immigration is perpetrating some great injustice. Maybe you're right. That's another issue altogether.

No, I wasn't really implying that, but that could be the case, they may back-off of tightening when they feel they have shot their own foot... isn't that the way it works? I'm not really one to be crying about injustice, but do know with whom I share a common lot (not poor but Farrang)and may be a little less dismissive of their concerns . This is Thailand... and they should continue to do what's best for Thailand, as I will do what is best for me, which includes exchanging information on a board like this.

By the way, Malaysia has a retirement scheme that is excellent, without arbitrary age limits, and I wouldn't at all be surprised if Thailand isn't aware that the deposit requirement Malaysia has is higher than the 800,000 B Thailand now has. (to add fuel to the rumor about future hikes on retirement deposits)

. .

. Anyway luck to all.

PS: The Republican comment was because I sensed an "I got what I need, the world is alright" attitude. Although I do appreciate your attempt to "sum things up" I didn't agree with your math. ( It's a myth about smaller Gov. and less regulations )

[DaveYo]

I must say it is very much possible that they will ante up the banking requirements along with the visa reasons etc within the near future. Yes, from what I have heard, they are contemplating on raising the amounts, but how much is still being debated. For the time being their focus now is primarly down South with that unrest going on, and of course the Soccer agenda, along with their Gambling ideas, and partly up North around the Chiang Mai area, and the Border of Cambodia.

I do believe once all that sort of clears up and gets straightened out, then they will again focus on the Expats issues.

So be prepared in the meantime. Like I said, there is going to be some kind of exodus shortly, but how much and as to when, no one knows. The Government is holding all the Aces as of right now.

As of Citizenship, for me that is very far in the Horizon and holy knows if I will ever learn THE language alone as one of the requirements. So, for me I will forget that part. Permanent Residency is still a ways off but it is a viable option for me depending on what Thailand does within the near future to us expats. However with Permanent Residency, you will fare much better than being on a 1 year visa as it is currently per se. Also I do believe with Permanent Residency, you not have to be under the gun as of Banking Laws, but then again I might be wrong. They keep changing the criterias all the time. Can anyone verify this part - Yes or No.

Daveyo

[Dutchy]

As of Citizenship, for me that is very far in the Horizon and holy knows if I will ever learn THE language alone as one of the requirements. So, for me I will forget that part. Permanent Residency is still a ways off but it is a viable option for me depending on what Thailand does within the near future to us expats.

Daveyo

If you're interested in Citizinship you'd better learn another language....

[ovenman]

By the way, Malaysia has a retirement scheme that is excellent, without arbitrary age limits, and I wouldn't at all be surprised if Thailand isn't aware that the deposit requirement Malaysia has is higher than the 800,000 B Thailand now has. (to add fuel to the rumor about future hikes on retirement deposits)

I wonder if the Thais are also aware that with the Malaysian "My Second Home" program comes the invitation to buy a house in Malaysia, two houses in fact.