sanemax Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 Just now, bomber said: did you actually vote? No, I didnt . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vogie Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 5 minutes ago, AlexRich said: His post was about May's failure to deliver his Brexit. A conspiracy involving Theresa May ... deliberately gaming the negotiations to stay in the EU and thwart Brexit, or whatever Brexit means to him. A failure to acknowledge that the UK was engaging in a negotiation with a strong counterparty. Liam Fox promised to have all the non-EU agreements rolled over by now. Easiest job in the world, according to him. He was a leaver, not a remainer. How is his failure explained? Was he in on the conspiracy? Did he take silver from the "establishment" and become a turncoat? Every failure in this process is the result of some conspiracy or remainer plot, it's never acknowledged that Brexit was in fact very difficult to do without causing untold damage. Liam Fox promised to have all the non-EU agreements rolled over by now. Easiest job in the world, according to him. He was a leaver, not a remainer. How is his failure explained? Was he in on the conspiracy? Did he take silver from the "establishment" and become a turncoat? If you part quote someone you do not get the full meaning of what he is saying. He went on to say that it would not be easy as politics gets in the way of economics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexRich Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 8 minutes ago, vogie said: Liam Fox promised to have all the non-EU agreements rolled over by now. Easiest job in the world, according to him. He was a leaver, not a remainer. How is his failure explained? Was he in on the conspiracy? Did he take silver from the "establishment" and become a turncoat? If you part quote someone you do not get the full meaning of what he is saying. He went on to say that it would not be easy as politics gets in the way of economics. If politics gets in the way of Fox, doesn't the same apply to May? Why does her attempts at Brexit come down to a conspiracy to thwart it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexRich Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 22 minutes ago, sanemax said: I wasnt in the UK at the time so I may have missed them, but , what were the promises made ? (Please dont mention THAT bus , that wasnt a promise , it was a suggestion ) So, what are the "promises" made to secure Brexiters vote that were never kept ? Best direct that question to Crying Gravy ... what is it that he was promised that is not in May's withdrawal agreement and future relationship deal? From my perspective it looks pretty damn close to what many people claimed they were voting for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bomber Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 2 hours ago, evadgib said: I'm sorry to hear that DD, I think he's the best of a bad bunch although I have no idea how anyone could build a cabinet these days. i agree Labour and the Tories have collapsed,the EU is much more organised and structured and to thing that you lot predict its collapse is so hilarious,they must be wetting themselves every time they hear it,your beloved UK and its sovereign govt HAS collapsed and will remain collapsed for the rest of your time on the planet.Squabling parties with 15-25% of the nations votes trying to keep the UK together and convince oversea's companies to come here are the future for the next 20+ years thanks to brexit whether hard or soft or even not at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bomber Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 21 minutes ago, sanemax said: No, I didnt . ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanemax Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 1 minute ago, AlexRich said: Best direct that question to Crying Gravy ... what is it that he was promised that is not in May's withdrawal agreement and future relationship deal? From my perspective it looks pretty damn close to what many people claimed they were voting for? You stated "lies" were told and I am asking you what "lies" were told . The big lie told was that the referendum result would be enacted upon . We voted to leave , the Gov voted against leaving . The vote was to leave , not to leave with any agreements . The Gov should have followed the will of the voters and voted to leave without any agreements Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tebee Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 1 hour ago, AlexRich said: The one consistency with the ardent Brexiteers on TVF is a failure to acknowledge that the "promises" sold to them were for the purposes of securing their votes, they were never actually deliverable. And the other consistency is resorting to blaming other people for the failure to deliver on those promises. The leave campaigners talked as if you simply write down a list of what you want and the EU sign up to it, and off you go. They didn't seem to consider that the EU would also have a list of things that they wanted, including not wanting to change the way they operate and encourage other countries to also "have their cake and eat it". It was a negotiation, with a strong counterparty, and it would inevitably end in a compromise that both parties could live with. But ... still ... easier to blame someone else, it means you don't have to engage in self-reflection? You still can't trust leave -if you look closely at the march pictures in the publicity for their new march on London, you can see it's from a Black Lives Matter march ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dick dasterdly Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 3 hours ago, evadgib said: I'm sorry to hear that DD, I think he's the best of a bad bunch although I have no idea how anyone could build a cabinet these days. He supported the May/eu appalling deal, as pointed out by SW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dick dasterdly Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 1 hour ago, sanemax said: I wasnt in the UK at the time so I may have missed them, but , what were the promises made ? (Please dont mention THAT bus , that wasnt a promise , it was a suggestion ) So, what are the "promises" made to secure Brexiters vote that were never kept ? As far as I can recall, the brexiteers accused the eu of having various plans to introduce more 'eu'. i.e. turkey being allowed to join (allowing yet more poor immigrants seeking money from poor jobs in the uk)/the eu intending an eu army etc. etc. Weirdly, I missed out on them pointing out the extravagant waste of money by the eu? ☹️ The remain campaign on the other hand, pointed out immediate armageddon in the event of 'leave' winning the referendum..... The voters didn't believe it then, and have even less reason to believe it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dick dasterdly Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 1 hour ago, AlexRich said: His post was about May's failure to deliver his Brexit. A conspiracy involving Theresa May ... deliberately gaming the negotiations to stay in the EU and thwart Brexit, or whatever Brexit means to him. A failure to acknowledge that the UK was engaging in a negotiation with a strong counterparty. Liam Fox promised to have all the non-EU agreements rolled over by now. Easiest job in the world, according to him. He was a leaver, not a remainer. How is his failure explained? Was he in on the conspiracy? Did he take silver from the "establishment" and become a turncoat? Every failure in this process is the result of some conspiracy or remainer plot, it's never acknowledged that Brexit was in fact very difficult to do without causing untold damage. You seriously think that the uk immediately agreeing to the eu's negotiating agenda (money paid to the eu at the top, trade agreement at the bottom) was anything other than a 'sell out'?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dick dasterdly Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 1 hour ago, AlexRich said: Best direct that question to Crying Gravy ... what is it that he was promised that is not in May's withdrawal agreement and future relationship deal? From my perspective it looks pretty damn close to what many people claimed they were voting for? Leaving the eu..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dick dasterdly Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 1 hour ago, sanemax said: No, I didnt . Neither did I as I was unsure at the time. If there is another referendum, I will vote as I'm so angry at politicians trying to find a way around the original referendum result. If they get away with it, they will be even worse in the future ????. They need to be reminded that they are supposed to represent their constituents...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanemax Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 13 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said: As far as I can recall, the brexiteers accused the eu of having various plans to introduce more 'eu'. i.e. turkey being allowed to join (allowing yet more poor immigrants seeking money from poor jobs in the uk)/the eu intending an eu army etc. etc. Turkey had applied to join the E.U. and there was the possibility of them being allowed to join , so, that wasnt a lie . France had been calling for a E.U army (and still are), and that was backed by Germany , so concerns about an E.U Army wasnt a lie either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evadgib Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 2 hours ago, AlexRich said: The one consistency with the ardent Brexiteers on TVF is a failure to acknowledge that the "promises" sold to them were for the purposes of securing their votes, they were never actually deliverable. And the other consistency is resorting to blaming other people for the failure to deliver on those promises. The leave campaigners talked as if you simply write down a list of what you want and the EU sign up to it, and off you go. They didn't seem to consider that the EU would also have a list of things that they wanted, including not wanting to change the way they operate and encourage other countries to also "have their cake and eat it". It was a negotiation, with a strong counterparty, and it would inevitably end in a compromise that both parties could live with. But ... still ... easier to blame someone else, it means you don't have to engage in self-reflection? Do you not realize that even without any canvassing a fair number had already made up their minds? We're nearly as clever as Grouse these days???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dick dasterdly Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 12 minutes ago, sanemax said: Turkey had applied to join the E.U. and there was the possibility of them being allowed to join , so, that wasnt a lie . France had been calling for a E.U army (and still are), and that was backed by Germany , so concerns about an E.U Army wasnt a lie either True. IMO the only outright lies were told by the remainers - but of course their supporters will never believe this. Unfortunately for them, the leavers ignored the 'advice' coming from pretty much every direction, and Osborne's promised 'punishment' budget in the event of a leave vote was probably the last straw in convincing them it was all 'establishment lies'. Thank you Osborne! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanemax Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 1 hour ago, AlexRich said: If politics gets in the way of Fox, doesn't the same apply to May? Why does her attempts at Brexit come down to a conspiracy to thwart it? Did May make an honest attempt to leave during negotiations or was the plan all along for the M.P.s to reject it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soalbundy Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 You have democratically elected MP's who have access to expert opinion, it is their job to guide and lead in the best interests of the country and not be led by emotional, patriotic feelings and flag waving. Government by referendum is not a good idea, it isn't legally binding for good reason, it is a gauge of public feeling, no more than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dick dasterdly Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 2 hours ago, AlexRich said: If politics gets in the way of Fox, doesn't the same apply to May? Why does her attempts at Brexit come down to a conspiracy to thwart it? Let's go back to the uk (for some obscure reason) agreeing to the eu's negotiating agenda. Money to be paid to them at the top, trade deal at the bottom..... Made no sense at all, especially as May was talking about 'no deal is better than a bad deal'! Now that May has changed to 'the worst possible deal imaginable is better than no deal' - her agreeing to the eu's negotiating agenda - is making far more sense..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dick dasterdly Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 I'm truly sorry to go on and on about this - but surely it would have been in both the eu and uk's interests to sort out a trade deal before arguing about the rest? Unless, of course neither side had any intention of a genuine 'leave'..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexRich Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 2 hours ago, sanemax said: You stated "lies" were told and I am asking you what "lies" were told . The big lie told was that the referendum result would be enacted upon . We voted to leave , the Gov voted against leaving . The vote was to leave , not to leave with any agreements . The Gov should have followed the will of the voters and voted to leave without any agreements Several big lies were made: ”easy thing in the world, trade deals, we’ll sign them the day after we leave” ”they need us more than we need them, German manufacturers will press Merkel to offer us a great deal” ”we’ll have a much better deal than the one we have already, everything we want without the contributions” ”of course we’ll still have access to the single market” ”no issues with Northern Ireland at all, just project fear” No mention of £39bn to the EU ... but lots of lies on buses about boosting the NHS. I could go on ... but as you are another “in denial” Brexit lover, why bother? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexRich Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 6 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said: I'm truly sorry to go on and on about this - but surely it would have been in both the eu and uk's interests to sort out a trade deal before arguing about the rest? Unless, of course neither side had any intention of a genuine 'leave'..... Of course ... it was all a big conspiracy. Unless of course you had actually voted for May’s deal, which would have meant leaving on time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexRich Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 22 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said: Let's go back to the uk (for some obscure reason) agreeing to the eu's negotiating agenda. Money to be paid to them at the top, trade deal at the bottom..... Made no sense at all, especially as May was talking about 'no deal is better than a bad deal'! Now that May has changed to 'the worst possible deal imaginable is better than no deal' - her agreeing to the eu's negotiating agenda - is making far more sense..... The problem with your theory is that no deal is much worse than May’s ... so she is consistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanemax Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 Just now, AlexRich said: Several big lies were made: ”easy thing in the world, trade deals, we’ll sign them the day after we leave” ”they need us more than we need them, German manufacturers will press Merkel to offer us a great deal” ”we’ll have a much better deal than the one we have already, everything we want without the contributions” ”of course we’ll still have access to the single market” ”no issues with Northern Ireland at all, just project fear” No mention of £39bn to the EU ... but lots of lies on buses about boosting the NHS. I could go on ... but as you are another “in denial” Brexit lover, why bother? Who actually said all those "quotes" You didnt put a name to them and so I did a google search and came up with *No results found for ”no issues with Northern Ireland at all, just project fear”.* As you didnt put a name to the "quotes" and google found no results for those quotes , I must assume that you just make them up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dick dasterdly Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 1 minute ago, AlexRich said: Of course ... it was all a big conspiracy. Unless of course you had actually voted for May’s deal, which would have meant leaving on time? I've no interest in going around in circles again as to how the eu/may deal was BRINO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexRich Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 31 minutes ago, sanemax said: Did May make an honest attempt to leave during negotiations or was the plan all along for the M.P.s to reject it ? The MPs who are obstructing Brexit are the ERG and DUP ... if you had offered the ERG May’s deal 5 years ago they’d have grabbed it by both hands and had a three day champagne binge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 3 hours ago, evadgib said: I'm wary of them as you well know Grouse but i'm intrigued as to whats coming next from either direction. Does Farange need a new cushion for his telly chair? I didn't know he had haemorrhoids! Good ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexRich Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 1 minute ago, sanemax said: Who actually said all those "quotes" You didnt put a name to them and so I did a google search and came up with *No results found for ”no issues with Northern Ireland at all, just project fear”.* As you didnt put a name to the "quotes" and google found no results for those quotes , I must assume that you just make them up As I said, you are not worth the effort. I could spend several hours pulling out contradictory quotes from every prominent Leave campaigner ... one example is Rees Mogg suggesting in the commons that we have two votes, one on getting out, and one on the deal. I could quote Fox and Hannan and Davis and Johnson. But why would I bother? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexRich Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 4 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said: I've no interest in going around in circles again as to how the eu/may deal was BRINO. So what’s in May’s deal that is different from what was campaigned for? And bear in mind the withdrawal is not the final deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dick dasterdly Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 6 minutes ago, AlexRich said: As I said, you are not worth the effort. I could spend several hours pulling out contradictory quotes from every prominent Leave campaigner ... one example is Rees Mogg suggesting in the commons that we have two votes, one on getting out, and one on the deal. I could quote Fox and Hannan and Davis and Johnson. But why would I bother? Funnily enough, I agree. We've been round and round all the arguments so many times that we're all bored and fed up by the never ending. predictable responses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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