Feeling 'eyed' by Thailand and what I'm planning on doing about it

[Gecko123]

There has been a real sea change in my feelings about living in Thailand, and I say this with tears in my heart.

 

I came to Thailand for the first time in '86 and am coming up on 16 years living here. Up until recently, I always imagined I would live out my days here. I've identified two major prongs behind my change in thinking.

 

First, I think my perspective has changed as I have moved into my mid-60's and begun to face the reality of what being elderly would be like here. In a word, I've become more apprehensive about being vulnerable in my old age. Worries about who would care for me, the quality of care, the quality of hospitals in my rural area, that sort of thing.

 

The other factors which has dampened my enthusiasm for living here are immigration related, but I feel that there has also been a major shift in public attitudes towards foreigners in the last several years. The new 800K requirements didn't affect me at all, but because the changes were so abrupt and implemented with next to no feedback from the retiree community, it damaged my sense as a retiree of feeling like I was welcome or valued. It really made me feel like the government saw our relationship as more arm's length than I realized. The rules seem so rigidly enforced it feels like they are looking for ways to kick people out.

 

But the TM-30 housemaster reporting requirement was probably the straw which broke the camel's back. I moved to Thailand because I thought I would feel more part of the community here than I did living in the US. Even though I recognized early on that my degree of social integration into Thai society would never be as deep as I imagined it would be, being a fairly 'low social needs' type person, I was reasonably content with the bonds I managed to form with the people in my area, and always felt that I was reasonably well-respected for who I was as a person. But the level of focus on my whereabouts which the TM-30 reporting requirement brought makes me feel stigmatized and criminalized to an intolerable degree. It really touches a deep nerve in me.

 

On a daily basis, dealing with everyday Thais, the changes are more subtle, but they're unmistakable. People aren't glaring or staring, but there's more eyeing going on. Very subtle. Not making eye contact, but watching, observing. A local cop asked me the other day, 'Where you from?' a question which just a short while ago I wouldn't have given a second thought to, just a cop practicing his English. But for the first time I wondered if he was screening my nationality to see if I warranted further scrutiny. It just feels like people feel less need to be courteous or friendly these days. I know it sounds crazy, but even the village dogs seem to be more cranky as of late.

 

So I've been immersed in repatriation research for the past several months. Kind of brings back many memories of all the research I did before moving here, and aside from getting some stuff off my chest, I wanted to share some things that people might find useful, particularly if you are from the US.

 

I have a big incentive to wait for four more years until I'm 70. If I can hold off on starting SS until then, the combination of the higher SS payout, being able to live in Thailand essentially rent free until then, and the reduction in the number of years I will need to make my savings last will allow me to have a pretty hefty annual budget for the duration. The problem is another four years seems like a long time, and I'm trying to decide if it's worth holding out until then. Another thing, even though I have not made a definite decision to repatriate, the probability of this happening is high enough that I have signed up for Part B Medicare. Previously, I did not think this was worthwhile as I planned on living in Thailand for the duration, and there was no overseas coverage.

 

After many, many weeks on US real estate websites, the conclusion that I have come to is that on the West Coast a minimum for a decent house away from metropolitan areas is $350K, $500K being more like it, and $1MM+ even better. Inland, in much of the South and far Northeast many nice homes are available for much less, but as most of my friends and family are on the West Coast, I am not that interested in these areas. Maine, if anyone's interested, has some amazing homes available for well under $100K, but you're probably talking about 5 feet of snow on the ground for half the year. So, unless there's a collapse in the housing market bubble (which I'm kind of praying for), I've kind of resigned myself to renting, at least initially. I am reasoning that this will give me greater flexibility in terms of mobility (if, for example, I decided to head South of the border) as well as avoiding tying up most of my cash in a potentially illiquid real estate investment. Another thing that I realized when pondering purchasing a home, is that after 16 years in Thailand, getting a mortgage might be a little tricky, even though on paper, I probably could qualify. The other problem about home purchasing that I encountered was that if you planned on tapping IRA accounts to make the down payment or purchase a house, taxes on a major IRA withdrawal taken all at once could be quite hefty.

 

After having lived in Thailand for 16 years, I don't think I could transistion to another country without recharging my batteries back in the States for a while. After being gone so long, the US will probably feel like a foreign country in and of itself. I'm thinking get myself a $1500/mo to $2000/mo apartment or condo, and travel a bit in Europe, Mexico, while rebuilding relationships with family and friends which admittedly, I've badly neglected.

 

So that's about it. I'm not holding my breath that the upcoming Thai elections are going to change much, and the 2020 elections in the states might make me less inclined to move back to the US. Not encouraging anybody to leave Thailand, but if you're thinking about it, maybe a brainstorming session or two might help. Cheers.

Edited March 18, 2019 by Gecko123

[Leaver]

A good and honest post.

 

I would say the Thai Government is not "at arms length" so much as having "their hands in your pocket."  ????

 

The Thai economy is not doing to well, so what do they do here, extort money out of farang, en masse. 

 

I expect things to be worse after the election, as an illegitimate Government arranges its own legitimacy, then anything is possible. 

 

Edited March 18, 2019 by Leaver

[baansgr]

So many threads now of long termers that have realised what the thais really think of us, great post that captures so many changes over the past few years that effect "residents" The whole feeling of being unwelcome is a large factor in most peoples outlook, whereas most countries welcome people with money willing to emerge into their country...Thailand is the total opposite...

[baansgr]

1 minute ago, Leaver said:

A good and honest post.

 

I would say the Thai Government is not "at arms length" so much as having "their hands in your pocket."  ????

 

The Thai economy is not doing to well, so what do they do here, extort money out of farang, en masse. 

 

The crash of 97 had many changes to encourage and welcome tourists/residents, so its nothing to do with the economy

[Leaver]

3 minutes ago, baansgr said:

The crash of 97 had many changes to encourage and welcome tourists/residents, so its nothing to do with the economy

That's over 20 years ago.  That's a long time in global economics. 

 

That said, how many coups has Thailand had in that time?  ????

 

I remember the tsunami in Phuket.  They begged tourists to come back, and when they did, the scamming went from bad to worse there. 

[brokenbone]

my perspective is that of disability,

at 70 your days are on a timer when you can still make it back to safety, i would find a safe place to die at peace

without interference from immigration officers,

asap

[Leaver]

15 minutes ago, baansgr said:

So many threads now of long termers that have realised what the thais really think of us, great post that captures so many changes over the past few years that effect "residents" The whole feeling of being unwelcome is a large factor in most peoples outlook, whereas most countries welcome people with money willing to emerge into their country...Thailand is the total opposite...

Yes.  An old saying is, "they want our money here, but not us."

 

The new visa laws have ensured they get more money, whilst still just tolerating us.

Edited March 18, 2019 by Leaver

[Gecko123]

2 minutes ago, brokenbone said:

my perspective is that of disability,

at 70 your days are on a timer when you can still make it back to safety, i would find a safe place to die at peace

without interference from immigration officers,

asap

i hear you. while i do have a few aches and pains, physically i'm in good shape. i do worry that my cognitive skills would deteriorate if i went into thumb twiddling mode for four years.

[Enoon]

 

You have evolved.

 

It is as much about you as it is about Thailand.

 

When I was a teenager I declared that I was always going to be the person I was then.

 

I never imagined that life could be about looking back at a series of different "persons".

 

Good luck (although I doubt that you need it).

 

 

[Orton Rd]

Can relate to the change in Thai attitudes, I have had people who will not sit next to the foreigner on a bus many times, or if they do move as soon as they can. Last week sitting at the food court in TOPS the woman next to me got up and dragged her table away (they have two together) Many other little slights like that go on, it's stopped being the land of smiles a long time ago, although you there are still nice encounters of course.

[55Jay]

I have noticed a subtle shift in the tone of your posts recently. 

 

Not as old as you are but I identify a lot with what you've said and the underlying rationale.  We'll be back in So Cal again this summer.  It's getting harder to leave each time.  I think my/our path will be my Mom, passing through mid-70s living alone, she's getting more vocal about her desire for us to stay with her for longer periods, which I suspect will develop into full-time once she gets older. 

 

Otherwise, it'll be a big hit on the bank accounts and portfolio getting into the SoCal RE market.  I really regret not picking up a small house after the '08 crash.  

[Banana7]

If I were you, I would start the SSA immediately, without delay. There is no guarantee you'll even see age 70. Lots of people die before seeing a penny from SSA.

 

Next, move to a city in Thailand away from the village. Most cities have pretty good hospitals. Even consider buying a condo in Pattaya. Pattaya has some good hospitals. Condo living is pretty good, most have at least one restaurant, laundry services, personal unit cleaning services, a pool. You'll make lots of friends in Pattaya.

Jomtien immigration is friendly and generally OK. Pattaya is also close to BKK airport if you need to get a flight out quickly.

Edited March 18, 2019 by Banana7

[beautifulthailand99]

19 minutes ago, Banana7 said:

If I were you, I would start the SSA immediately, without delay. There is no guarantee you'll even see age 70. Lots of people die before seeing a penny from SSA.

 

Next, move to a city in Thailand away from the village. Most cities have pretty good hospitals. Even consider buying a condo in Pattaya. Pattaya has some good hospitals. Condo living is pretty good, most have at least one restaurant, laundry services, personal unit cleaning services, a pool. You'll make lots of friends in Pattaya.

Jomtien immigration is friendly and generally OK. Pattaya also close to BKK airport if you need to get a flight out quickly.

 

So true - move to a place with a good level of Farang you won't feel so out of place. I overwinter in Jomtiem now with my missus in a second-hand condo on the 15th floor with sea-views for 1.3m. Baht buses take you everywhere you need to go and you will be welcome or at least ignored. You can rent a reasonable place for 10k a month. Don't chuck in the towel before you've given a 'half-way' house a go. Plus clean air and sea-breezes........

 

As for ordinary Thais I have some sympathy for their plight, deprived of their beloved King and a democratic vote and hope things are pretty tough right now. In Jomtien they see crowds of rude Russians and hordes of noisy Chinese making merry why they are consigned to seemingly being second class citizens in their own country. Some local resentment is to be expected. The whole world seems to be getting angry. We met an almost toothless elderly coconut salesman at the market with his friend selling them at 20 baht a pop with a smile and we got chatting and he remarked he didn't know why Thai people robbed the farang so much around here and got a bad name for his country. We left with laughter and smiles all round - there are still plenty of good guys left and you seem like one of them.  A change is as good as a rest. 

Edited March 18, 2019 by beautifulthailand99

[NCC1701A]

1 hour ago, Gecko123 said:

maybe a brainstorming session or two might help.

have you been to Hua Hin? you should come to visit for a solid month. A bit more like California or Florida as far as hospitals, malls, shops. The Thais are used to Farangs here. They call it "White Town". No cop would stop and ask you where are you from. No drug tests and anything like that.

 

I live like a king on just my SS alone. Sometimes when I travel I add in a few extra hundred dollars for a big party. ???? 

 

I watched my mom and dad age in the USA. They lived to be 89 and 92. I am in 63 and have zero health issues except for some IBS. 

People live a long time in my family. So I expect to live until at least 80.

 

It was expensive as hell to get my parents home care.  Like $30 A HOUR! and they had it running around the clock and then assisted living.

That is why I came to Thailand. All you have to do is give a Thai the incentive to keep you alive and they will.

But you have to be start about it.

 

also the USA you know was destroyed about 20 years ago. you will not be able to speak your mind about anything. 

 

Edited March 18, 2019 by NCC1701A

[marcusarelus]

You are reading Thai visa too much.  Really nothing much has changed except the attitude of some key posters on here. 

 

One of them is running 13 negative threads now.  He was always negative for the 10 years of so I've been reading here but now it's getting extreme. 

 

I am in my 70's and nothing has changed for me.  If anything the people are getting nicer because the backpackers and skint expats are leaving. 

 

Thai's are going more online and that means more action for the fellows who can read and write Thai. 

 

I'd take a break from Thai Visa and associate with some less OCD types. 

 

We have always had the dumped guys but now add to that the visa runners and the ex pat fakers and it seems like a Tsunami of negativity. 

 

They'll be gone in a few months as things shake out and normalcy will return. 

 

I visit two Thai social streaming forums daily and I've seen more people wanting to meet me rather than less recently and I'm an old guy. 

 

The eye thing reminds me of the guys smoking for the first time and getting paranoid. 

Edited March 18, 2019 by marcusarelus

[canthai55]

All these posts are like a snowball rolling down a mountain.

The generate fear, and this makes people do strange things.

We live 25km from CNX, in a small village. Town 30 minutes away, mountains at my back door. I ride I bike (not a bicycle) so most days I am off exploring. Week long trips regularily - many places to see.

Down let all the fear mongers get to you. All those 'What If' topics being posted by Yahoos

What if you get hit by a bus ? Are you going to lock yourself in your house in fear of being injured or killed ?

No One Gets Out Alive

Living in fear is no way to live your life. Get out and about. Enjoy. Live.

Simple as that 

 

[Orton Rd]

1 hour ago, marcusarelus said:

 

I visit two Thai social streaming forums daily and I've seen more people wanting to meet me rather than less recently and I'm an old guy. 

 

The eye thing reminds me of the guys smoking for the first time and getting paranoid. 

What Thai forums would they be? 25 years ago I would get Thais coming up to me in the Street, or sitting next to you to practice their English, not these days. There has been a marked rise in anti foreigner feelings, in Bangkok at least since 2014.  I can relate to the TM30 nonsense, last extension we got stung for that, they wanted 1600 baht but the Mrs negotiated that down to 800. They must have my address on hundreds of documents including the arrival card the day before, that's 'different' apparently.

[Nyezhov]

1 minute ago, Orton Rd said:

25 years ago I would get Thais coming up to me in the Street, or sitting next to you to practice their English, not these days.

Maybe its you, I get it once or twice a week. In fact I just was chatting with a stranger that came up to me whilst I was getting my pineapple fix from the smiling Fruit Dude.

 

Folks look at me a lot though, I attribute that to my stunning bronzed physique. Plus I stuff a sock.

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, marcusarelus said:

...

 

One of them is running 13 negative threads now. 

…

Bald faced lie.

[totally thaied up]

2 hours ago, Enoon said:

I never imagined that life could be about looking back at a series of different "persons".

My Father-in-law told me we change about every five years in the 'state of persons' we really are. I think he is correct.

 

My wife and I go home to Australia after me living full time in Thailand for four years on Wednesday for a period of three months. I need to go home to mend a few fences with people and not neglect everyone as I have done for so long as in some ways. I feel some things in Thailand have changed and I need a 'time out' to look back at things to see how they are.

 

My biggest worry is to be in my 60's and 70's and be refused health coverage. If I start to prepare things now, it is something I can do over a few years as in move. There is no fear in this post as I have lived here in Thailand now for 10 years and do love the place. I have seen a winding down of many fellow farangs over the years and I think it is the fact of getting older and wondering about the 'what if's' are going to get you. What if this happens -- What if that happens.

 

I do have the money to stay here till I die but I am also looking at what will be best for me in my later years in life. My wife will look after me and for that, I am lucky but for all of us, we are so different in character that these issues will all affect us differently. I do not really want to go from Thailand but while I am young enough to have a look with my wife at something different for a few months, I will use this break to see how much Australia has changed. I may be running back here real quick after three months with my tail in between my legs saying, ''Lord what was I thinking'' as in reality, I do not know what I am returning too and that has me slightly stressed.

[Nyezhov]

27 minutes ago, totally thaied up said:

I do have the money to stay here till I die but I am also looking at what will be best for me in my later years in life. My wife will look after me and for that, I am lucky but for all of us, we are so different in character that these issues will all affect us differently.

Reckon we all have to decide whether we want to die here or in the land of our birth. But die we shall.

[watcharacters]

3 hours ago, brokenbone said:

my perspective is that of disability,

at 70 your days are on a timer when you can still make it back to safety, i would find a safe place to die at peace

without interference from immigration officers,

asap

 

We're ALL on a timer.   Even at 70 it doesn't mean the OP can't  determine his chosen direction successfully and manage it.

 

Your discouraging words are on the depressing side to me.

 

 

[brokenbone]

19 minutes ago, watcharacters said:

 

We're ALL on a timer.   Even at 70 it doesn't mean the OP can't  determine his chosen direction successfully and manage it.

 

Your discouraging words are on the depressing side to me.

 

 

i mean he is on a rapid countdown for how long he will be able to relocate, i'd like to get to a safe place but the hurdles are horrible and pain horrible to just go to vietnam,

and i'm simply not able to make it back to EU.

 

you too will one day be in a state when you simply cant,

its just a matter how long its going to take to get to that state, and past 70 i wouldnt take my chances any longer

if i didnt have to.

 

Edited March 18, 2019 by brokenbone

[1FinickyOne]

It seems to me the larger part of the visa issue is that the people who used to obtain letters and not legitimately qualify are having problems and are angry about it. There seem to be some changes and maybe a period of transition until it gets sorted out. I still do not run into any problems with people and police. Went through a check point last week, the officer patted my arm, smiled, chatted, - - the usual stuff - where are you going - - 

all pleasant and nothing seemed any different. 

 

I have added a city condo to my village location. Some variety and proximity to hospitals etc..

 

As to SS I took mine at 62, first day possible. What I think people neglect in their calculations is that if invested themselves, done properly, it will also increase in amount. 

 

If I were to advise you, I would say the same thing that I would to others wanting to come here. Go back for a while and try it. Take a vacation there. And whatever you decide, best of luck to you. 

Edited March 18, 2019 by kenk24

[NCC1701A]

3 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

You are reading Thai visa too much.  Really nothing much has changed except the attitude of some key posters on here. 

  

five years in Thailand and I have never had a bad experience with immigration. NOT ONE. Nothing has changed for me.

 

But reading TV now I am sure I am going to be deported the next time I do my 90 day reporting.

And I am running evacuation drills in the middle of the night.

 

"WAKE UP! You got five minutes to load those bags into your pickup honey! Drive me to the border!"  

[Denim]

All I get from these repeated   'leaving Thailand ' threads is that Americans seem to have higher expectations than other expats and are therefore more easily disappointed.

[brokenbone]

41 minutes ago, Denim said:

All I get from these repeated   'leaving Thailand ' threads is that Americans seem to have higher expectations than other expats and are therefore more easily disappointed.

i think its cause americans already had access to warm weather, they were looking for other values to begin with

[Jingthing]

American or not, of course I only speak for myself.

I was fully aware moving to Thailand that Thailand offered no residence security or path towards residence security based on retirement extensions.

HOWEVER, what I didn't know, what I didn't anticipate, was that immigration was going to morph into something resembling mandated AGGRESSIVE INSECURTY, seemingly setting booby traps, many rules and even more so their ENFORCEMENT norms having the clarity of MUDDY MUD … giving many long term expats the justifiable feeling that there is a general SHAKEOUT in process. Drip drip drip. That some people can't see that amazes me.

 

This is just too much to think is a healthy or happy situation for people as they age. 

Edited March 18, 2019 by Jingthing

[uhuh]

2 hours ago, NCC1701A said:

five years in Thailand and I have never had a bad experience with immigration. NOT ONE. Nothing has changed for me.

Much more than 5 years in Thailand,  and 2 weeks ago my first bad experience with immigration.  No big deal,  but a whole day wasted at CW.

 

Oh, and last year my then girlfriend casually mentioned that "nobody likes farang". I had never heard it in this absoluteness. So a while ago i mentioned to my current gf that Thais don't like farang. She was a bit apologetic but agreed. 

Edited March 18, 2019 by uhuh

[SamuiGeezer]

6 hours ago, NCC1701A said:

have you been to Hua Hin? you should come to visit for a solid month. A bit more like California or Florida as far as hospitals, malls, shops. The Thais are used to Farangs here. They call it "White Town". No cop would stop and ask you where are you from. No drug tests and anything like that.

 

I live like a king on just my SS alone. Sometimes when I travel I add in a few extra hundred dollars for a big party. ???? 

 

I watched my mom and dad age in the USA. They lived to be 89 and 92. I am in 63 and have zero health issues except for some IBS. 

People live a long time in my family. So I expect to live until at least 80.

 

It was expensive as hell to get my parents home care.  Like $30 A HOUR! and they had it running around the clock and then assisted living.

That is why I came to Thailand. All you have to do is give a Thai the incentive to keep you alive and they will.

But you have to be start about it.

 

also the USA you know was destroyed about 20 years ago. you will not be able to speak your mind about anything. 

 

I would tend to agree, from my experience Hua Hin is an ideal place to retire.