Restaurant / Bar In Thailand

[MarcHolt]

But now we made some money back home and we want to invest it in Thailand but we are having dificulties understanding whtas aloud and what is not......

How do you make a small fortune in Thailand?

Start with a large fortune and buy a bar.

The simple fact is you cannot buy a bar and work in it like ordinary staff. You will not be able to get a work permit. Only Thais are allowed to work in bars.

As for legal advice, you get what you pay for. I recommend you try Somphob & Associates, as they have a lot of experience in the property market and they will give you very good advice. They are not cheap, but if you plan to invest your savings into a business, you need the best possible advice.

I would not recommend buying a bar on Koh Chang. You would be better off setting up a small resort. Not easy, as property prices there are extremely expensive. Frankly, as a real estate agent I would advise you not to invest there. There are better locations in Thailand where you can buy at more reasonable prices and expect many more visitors.

The tourism season on Chang is limited, so most of the year you would be twiddling your thumbs and wondering if you will make it through to the next tourist season. The next up-and-coming area is Baan Chang on the western side of Rayong, or Baan Pe to the east. Both these areas are relatively unspoilt. They are popular with Thais now, but more foreigners are going there to get away from the crass commercialism in Pattaya.

Before you make any decision, do your homework well. Talk to foreigners in the business, as well as to qualified experts. You will meet many with their own agenda who will give you advice that will benefit them, so beware.

Deciding to move to a country like Thailand needs careful consideration. Have you got enough money to make a success? Do you have a fallback position in case things go wrong? Who will you choose for your Thai partners, because with the new FBA you must have majority Thai partners in your company from now on.

Go read some of the recent submissions on StickmanBangkok.com. You will find lots of information to think about there.

Edited March 12, 2007 by MarcHolt

[Sunbelt Asia]

How do you make a small fortune in Thailand?

Start with a large fortune and buy a bar.

In some cases this has happen. In some other cases, people started with some money and have made a fortune. You simply can't say all people that invest in a bar have made money just like you can't say all people that invest in a bar, have lost money.

Some owners are active in the business, others are not active. Case studies have proven, both types have done well as long as they had good management.

The simple fact is you cannot buy a bar and work in it like ordinary staff. You will not be able to get a work permit. Only Thais are allowed to work in bars.

Sorry but this is not correct. We have gotten quite a number of foreigners work permits that own or work in bars.

Who will you choose for your Thai partners, because with the new FBA you must have majority Thai partners in your company from now on.

Exception to this would be if you own the bar under the Amity Treaty as an American or you were granted an Alien Business License.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[smartecosse]

How do you make a small fortune in Thailand?

Start with a large fortune and buy a bar.

In some cases this has happen. In some other cases, people started with some money and have made a fortune. You simply can't say all people that invest in a bar have made money just like you can't say all people that invest in a bar, have lost money.

Some owners are active in the business, others are not active. Case studies have proven, both types have done well as long as they had good management.

The simple fact is you cannot buy a bar and work in it like ordinary staff. You will not be able to get a work permit. Only Thais are allowed to work in bars.

Sorry but this is not correct. We have gotten quite a number of foreigners work permits that own or work in bars.

Who will you choose for your Thai partners, because with the new FBA you must have majority Thai partners in your company from now on.

Exception to this would be if you own the bar under the Amity Treaty as an American or you were granted an Alien Business License.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

and it says what on the WP?? That they work in the bar as a bar "perosn" or that they are supervising Thai staff in a managerial role?

[Sunbelt Asia]

How do you make a small fortune in Thailand?

Start with a large fortune and buy a bar.

In some cases this has happen. In some other cases, people started with some money and have made a fortune. You simply can't say all people that invest in a bar have made money just like you can't say all people that invest in a bar, have lost money.

Some owners are active in the business, others are not active. Case studies have proven, both types have done well as long as they had good management.

The simple fact is you cannot buy a bar and work in it like ordinary staff. You will not be able to get a work permit. Only Thais are allowed to work in bars.

Sorry but this is not correct. We have gotten quite a number of foreigners work permits that own or work in bars.

Who will you choose for your Thai partners, because with the new FBA you must have majority Thai partners in your company from now on.

Exception to this would be if you own the bar under the Amity Treaty as an American or you were granted an Alien Business License.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

and it says what on the WP?? That they work in the bar as a bar "perosn" or that they are supervising Thai staff in a managerial role?

Several work permits state “Bartender" (no restriction to foreigners being a bartender as the job title for a work permit. ) I know this is different than most peoples thinking but it is not restricted.

What is restricted is...

1. laboring

2. work in agriculture, animal breeding, forestry, fishing and farm supervision (excluding specialized skills for the branch, farm supervision or in the maritime fishing field)

3. masonry, carpentry or other construction work

4. wood carving

5. driving of motor vehicles or non-motorised carriers (except piloting international airplanes)

6. shop attendant and window salespeople

7. auctioneering

8. accountancy supervision, auditing or services in the accounting field (except occasional internal auditing)

9. gem cutting or polishing

10. hair cutting, hair dressing or beautician work

11. hand weaving

12. mat weaving or fabrication of wares from reed, rattan, kenaf, straw or bamboo pulp

13. manual fibre paper making

14. lacquerware making

15. Thai musical instrument fabrication

16. nielloware fabrication

17. goldsmith, silversmith, or other precious metalwork

18. bronzeware fabrication

19. Thai doll making

20. mattress or padded blanket fabrication

21. alms bowl fabrication

22. manual silk product fabrication

23. Buddha image fabrication

24. knife making

25. paper or cloth umbrella fabrication

26. shoemaking

27. hat making

28. brokerage or agency work (except international business)

29. engineering work, civil engineering branch, which involves designing, drawing, calculation, organization, research, planning, testing, construction supervision or advisory work (except work requiring specialized skills)

30. architectural work involving designing, drawing or estimating as well as construction supervision or advisory work

31. dressmaking

32. pottery or ceramics

33. manual cigarette rolling

34. tourist guide or tour organizing agency

35. hawking business

36. Thai character typesetting

37. clerical or secretarial work

38. legal or litigation service.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[A_Traveller]

Sunbelt, may I ask what translation {I assume from the Alien Business Act 2542(?)} you are using for your list herein?

What about Annex 3 provisions 17 & 21?

Regards

[Sunbelt Asia]

Sunbelt, may I ask what translation

Regards

Alien Employment Act Royal Decree B.E. 2522 (1979)

I assume from the Alien Business Act 2542(?)} you are using for your list herein?

What about Annex 3 provisions 17 & 21?

As you stated this Annex is the Alien Business Act (in regards to the ownership of the Bar.)

Ownership has nothing to do with the work permits rules. These rules are covered in the Alien Employment Act Royal Decree B.E. 2522 (1979)

By the way, in the Alien Business Act; Thai Majority owned Bars, Americans that have 51% or more of the ownership or foreigners with the Alien Business Licenses are exempt.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[A_Traveller]

Sunbelt, may I ask what translation

Regards

Alien Employment Act Royal Decree B.E. 2522 (1979)

I assume from the Alien Business Act 2542(?)} you are using for your list herein?

What about Annex 3 provisions 17 & 21?

As you stated this Annex is the Alien Business Act (in regards to the ownership of the Bar.)

Ownership has nothing to do with the work permits rules. These rules are covered in the Alien Employment Act Royal Decree B.E. 2522 (1979)

By the way, in the Alien Business Act; Thai Majority owned Bars, Americans that have 51% or more of the ownership or foreigners with the Alien Business Licenses are exempt.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

That was my point, ownership and work permits. My advice has always been that the ownership rules can and have been used to create 'issues' for foreigners employed {who are also part owners} within this industry, not that it is my milieu.

In short a non owner or investor could be a bartender.

Regards

PS 6. has also been translated {by BOI} as Front Shop Sale which could be construed to cover bartender since it is a retail sales activity.

/edit PS added//

Edited March 12, 2007 by A_Traveller

[EdWinDows]

Thanks,

Now i'm getting GOOD information on my question, it helps a lot.

About investing in Koh Chang:

I'm sure tourism will grow and i know it will only be 4 month a yaer at the most....

The weather is not that good in Koh Chang...(i know).

If you can make it On Koh Chang, you can make it in all Thailand...

[Penkoprod]

Am i missing something here, or am i seeing that you are going to be running a leasehold bar/restaurant using the Work Permit method for both you and your wife?

If so, then (and i stand to be corrected on this) you need to employ FOUR Thais for each Work Permit, making a total of EIGHT people on the payroll 52 weeks per year. It doesnt matter if they are the hardest workers in South East Asia, thats an awful lot of wages to be paying out from a businees that you yourself admit is only going to show any profit in a high season of some 4 short months.

I hope you time the intended opening to co-incide with the start of said high season and have deep pockets. If not you might need VERY deep pockets.

Like i say, though i stand to be corrected on this one

Penkoprod

[Yamantaka]

Penkoprod, you are correct, each work permit requires four Thai employees whose wages and social security need to be proven ever month, along with personal income taxes for the two foreigners, whose minimum salaries are determined by the government. I believe that it is something like thb 50,000 per month each, so the monthly income taxes just for the foreigners will be around thb 4,000.

[Sunbelt Asia]

In short a non owner or investor could be a bartender.

correct

If so, then (and i stand to be corrected on this) you need to employ FOUR Thais for each Work Permit, making a total of EIGHT people on the payroll 52 weeks per year. It doesnt matter if they are the hardest workers in South East Asia, thats an awful lot of wages to be paying out from a businees that you yourself admit is only going

This is not correct.

Penkoprod, you are correct, each work permit requires four Thai employees whose wages and social security need to be proven ever month, along with personal income taxes for the two foreigners, whose minimum salaries are determined by the government. I believe that it is something like thb 50,000 per month each, so the monthly income taxes just for the foreigners will be around thb 4,000.

This is not correct. The criteria for a work permit for a Limited Company/Limited partnership is two million Baht registered capital per work permit. (Only one million Baht if married to a Thai) The other requirement is a non immigrant visa or resident permit. No requirement of 4 Thai employees exists.

The 50,000 Baht salary is not required in order to get a work permit. We have gotten many clients a work permit with a salary under 10,000 Baht per month.

The confusion lies in you are mixing up some of the rules for Immigration with an extension of stay based on business and a work permit. Immigration and the Labor Dept. are two different animals. By the way, it is impossible to even get an extension of stay based on business the first year unless you are a BOI company. If you are not married to a Thai, the employee simply has a one year multi entry visa and revalidates his work permit every 90 days.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[Khun Bob]

If you are not married to a Thai, the employee simply has a one year multi entry visa and revalidates his work permit every 90 days.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

How do you revalidate a work permit, when doing 90 day visa runs ?

Is it basically a new applicational all over again or just a case of confirming what has been previosly provided and validated ?

Also, is it possible to do the revalidation at locations other than bankgkok ?

Cheers

[Yamantaka]

I know Sunbelt are the experts on this. My lawyers and my accountant must be idiots.

I wonder why the Labor Department required us to submit a list with a minimum of 4 Thai employees and their salaries before they would issue my work permit in a company with registered capital of thb 18,000,000. They required this documentation every quarter inlcuding proof that social security was paid also. And why the Tax Department required that I pay the equivalent tax for a monthly salary of thb 60,000 (they specified this amount for an American).

I guess that's why Sunbelt gets the big bucks! Maybe I'll let them handle it next time.

[Sunbelt Asia]

How do you revalidate a work permit, when doing 90 day visa runs ?

You cross the border. Renter Thailand and file a WP5 application at the Labor Dept.

Is it basically a new applicational all over again or just a case of confirming what has been previosly provided and validated ?

The new application is the form WP2. Filing the form WP5 is a shorter version and why our professional fee is only 1,600 Baht.

Also, is it possible to do the revalidation at locations other than bankgkok ?

You must do it in wherever the province your work permit is located at. Every province does allow revalidation.

I know Sunbelt are the experts on this. My lawyers and my accountant must be idiots.

That’s your call. I can only tell how we process over 5,000 work permits last year in Bangkok and what the procedure is.

If we are saying that you don't need 4 Thai employees and someone was denied because they needed 4 Thais to get a work permit, they certainly would be jumping up and down.

We've been saying it since November 2004.

I wonder why the Labor Department required us to submit a list with a minimum of 4 Thai employees and their salaries before they would issue my work permit in a company with registered capital of thb 18,000,000.

They require you to submit how many Thai employees you have. However it is not a requirement to have any Thai employees as per the Department of Employment Regulations Governing the Criteria of Considering Permitting the Work of Foreigners A.D. 2004.

They required this documentation every quarter inlcuding proof that social security was paid also.

Not the Labor Dept.

And why the Tax Department required that I pay the equivalent tax for a monthly salary of thb 60,000 (they specified this amount for an American).

The Labor Dept or Tax Dept doesn’t require you to pay tax on 60K.

It used to be a requirement of the Immigration if you applied for the extension of stay based on business. This was lowered as per the National Police Order on Oct 1st 2006 for Americans to 50,000 Baht per month.

I guess that's why Sunbelt gets the big bucks! Maybe I'll let them handle it next time.

Not sure if we get the big bucks. Our professional fee is only 3,900 Baht for the renewal of the work permits. The Labor Dept will require 2 million Baht registered capital per work permit and a non immigrant visa.

If you do want to continue to get the renewal of the extension of stay based on business, our professional fee is 3,900 Baht. This will require 4 Thai employees, 50K per month if you're an American, You as the employer will need to show one million Baht net equity and that your corporation’s gross sales in 2006 were higher than the foreign salaries in 2007.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[Temporaneo]

I think this forum with all his topics can be a great help i have learned a lot.

Still i think for us Koh chang a good plase to be.

Now the only thing i have to sort out:

IS IT POSSIBLE FOR US TO OWN A BUISINESS 100% ???

(EXCEPT FOR THE LAND)

NO.

You can own only 49%. AND YOU MUST PAY FOR 100%.

So you just start with a 51% loss.

My advice: FORGET IT.

[EdWinDows]

THe Plan:

A restaurant/bar 40/60 seats.

Restaurant from 09.00 until 22.00.

Bar open until legal openings hours.

Company 100% owned by us (alian).

BOI-promoted???

Thai Staff: 3x kichenstaff

3x servants

1x manager

1x lawyer

1x accuontant

We want to work aswell in this company

(and we want to be able to do anything in this company).

The land we can possibly lease?

Maybe sunbeltasiagroup can tell me if this is possible,

if so can we contact your company direct?

Gr. Edwin en Annemarie.

[dgoz]

THe Plan:

A restaurant/bar 40/60 seats.

Restaurant from 09.00 until 22.00.

Bar open until legal openings hours.

Company 100% owned by us (alian).

BOI-promoted???

Thai Staff: 3x kichenstaff

3x servants

1x manager

1x lawyer

1x accuontant

We want to work aswell in this company

(and we want to be able to do anything in this company).

The land we can possibly lease?

Maybe sunbeltasiagroup can tell me if this is possible,

if so can we contact your company direct?

Gr. Edwin en Annemarie.

A company accountant, lawyer and a manager for a restaurant/bar on Koh Chang.

You're priceless EWD.

What about a CEO, CFO, COO, Human Resource Manager, Public Relations officer and Media representative?

All the bars down there have these.

[EdWinDows]

Did you ever been there and saw for example the Sabay Bar ?????

Don't think small, like the bars in nameless Soy's all around Thailand....

We are NOt thinking that way.....

Better try something new...and we are NOT going to tell the EXACT plan..

[Yamantaka]

In the five years I have been in Phuket, I have seen hundreds of people with a new business idea lose everything because they didn't listen to those with experience. Be careful. doing business here is nothing like your home country.

[Martin_F]

THe Plan:

A restaurant/bar 40/60 seats.

Restaurant from 09.00 until 22.00.

Bar open until legal openings hours.

Company 100% owned by us (alian).

BOI-promoted???

Thai Staff: 3x kichenstaff

3x servants

1x manager

1x lawyer

1x accuontant

We want to work aswell in this company

(and we want to be able to do anything in this company).

The land we can possibly lease?

Maybe sunbeltasiagroup can tell me if this is possible,

if so can we contact your company direct?

Gr. Edwin en Annemarie.

There is really no need for a lawyer nor an accountant in a restuarant with 10-15 tables.

These services can be outsourced at a much better price.

BOI approval would be very difficult if not impossible.

[Martin_F]

Oh and you will only be able to lease the land if you ever get 100% ownership.

[Sunbelt Asia]

THe Plan:

A restaurant/bar 40/60 seats.

Restaurant from 09.00 until 22.00.

Bar open until legal openings hours.

Company 100% owned by us (alian).

BOI-promoted???

Thai Staff: 3x kichenstaff

3x servants

1x manager

1x lawyer

1x accuontant

We want to work aswell in this company

(and we want to be able to do anything in this company).

The land we can possibly lease?

Maybe sunbeltasiagroup can tell me if this is possible,

if so can we contact your company direct?

Gr. Edwin en Annemarie.

Be sure to have insurance if you are a sole proprietorship.

It is impossible to get BOI approval to own a restaurant.

It is possible to get the Alien Business License and own the business 100%.

Best advice is to outsource your legal and accountant work.

You can lease the land.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[EdWinDows]

Be sure to have insurance if you are a sole proprietorship.

What kind of insurance do you mean ?????

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Be sure to have insurance if you are a sole proprietorship.

What kind of insurance do you mean ?????

Shouldn't you be making an appointment to talk to the advisers of your choice ?

[RAZZELL]

Be sure to have insurance if you are a sole proprietorship.

What kind of insurance do you mean ?????

Shouldn't you be making an appointment to talk to the advisers of your choice ?

I think a meeting with Subelt or A.N.Other is in order

Although I agree with you, Sabai Bar is busy and the only bar open late (ish) on Koh Chang...I wonder why?

RAZZ

Edited March 15, 2007 by RAZZELL

[EdWinDows]

Yess its getting time to make an appointment with an advisor, we getting a lot of info now so we can finish our buisiness-plan and then we also have our financial state finished.

One of these days we first going to call to someone who ownes a resort in Thailand and talk to this man how he started and what went wrong and what went good, so maybe we learn from this....

Then 15-07-07 (Siepha kadakada) we go to Thailand and before we go we contact Sunbelt for an appointment in the Pataya office (if possible) its on the way to Koh Chang so we can combine things.

In the meanwhile we listen (read) carefully to all the advice what is yet to come.

Better think twice and do it good.......

One thing i,m not sure of:

Get's the police or someone else money from you to run the buisiness???

I have seen something like that several times (i think)

[EdWinDows]

One thing i,m not sure of:

Get's the police or someone else money from you to run the buisiness???

I have seen something like that several times (i think)

Cannot ask about this ???

And Insurance is'nt understand by me..

we have in holland a buisinesss working under sole priorytyship and were going to sell this company and we want to start a new one in thailand

[EdWinDows]

On my last question noone seemes to have an awnser,

Nobody outthere has any expirance on this ????

[EdWinDows]

I worked almost the whole day on the buisiness-plan (now i'm getting a head-egg?)

There's one figure i'm not sure of:

Howmany bath a day is nessecery for providing a 40 to 60 seat restaurant/bar?

Ofcourse it will be a various figure, but i've got no clu on this one, only what i know here in holland.....

[qualtrough]

To the OP. By now I am sure you realize that there are a lot of very pessimistic people on this forum, which is true of most forums. To be sure, you should do your homework very carefully before making any business or investment decision. However, the idea that it is not possible for foreigners to make money here is complete and utter B.S.