Compromise? Time ticking down for Britain to come to Brexit agreement

[tebee]

23 minutes ago, vogie said:

The remainers did everything, leavers didn't have very much say in the whole shabang.

 

The mire we are in is obviously the remainers fault as the leavers had no say in this, backbones are in short supply in parliament.

 

You negotiated this mess, you own it.

It's not really either of our agenders - It's Theresa May's personal agenda, it's her that must own it.

 

She seems to have prioritized ending freedom of movement, while  going some support to manufacturing industry, but throwing services under the proverbial bus. 

 

We are just as unhappy with the deal as you are 

[dunroaming]

7 hours ago, malagateddy said:

As a British Brexiteer..I totally agree with you...imagine having a remain supporter as pm..and having remain supporting uncivil servants in the negociating team.
Sad to say, it's time for the white coats squad to take t may to the funny farm imo


Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

And here was me thinking the chief negotiators (Davis and Raab) were staunch Brexiteers. How silly of me.  Still the International Trade Secretary charged with creating new trade deals must have been a remainer given that he failed miserably as well.  I think his name is Liam Fox.

 

This whole Brexit thing has been a complete pigs ear.  But given that May was nominated by all the main Brexiteer campaigners, Johnson, Gove, JRM, Davis etc. It is surely only right that they should be held equally responsible.

[nontabury]

3 hours ago, tlandtday said:

The system is rigged they will simply keep having a vote until it goes the way they want which is "remain".  You see you got to vote in the first place because they believed they could win but they didn't so time to revote.

 

 

Very true.

 

 

[Laughing Gravy]

2 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Agree with everything you said, but there's no need to apologise to someone who is frequently referring to leavers as 'simpletons' and the like.

Dick, I see it as a sign of strength and normally I don't lower myself to use an idiom of lamps and street.

[nauseus]

45 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

And here was me thinking the chief negotiators (Davis and Raab) were staunch Brexiteers. How silly of me.  Still the International Trade Secretary charged with creating new trade deals must have been a remainer given that he failed miserably as well.  I think his name is Liam Fox.

 

This whole Brexit thing has been a complete pigs ear.  But given that May was nominated by all the main Brexiteer campaigners, Johnson, Gove, JRM, Davis etc. It is surely only right that they should be held equally responsible.

Davis was and is pro Brexit. He was lied to and subsequently undermined by May. 

[tebee]

2 hours ago, vogie said:

The remainers did everything, leavers didn't have very much say in the whole shabang.

 

The mire we are in is obviously the remainers fault as the leavers had no say in this, backbones are in short supply in parliament.

 

You negotiated this mess, you own it.

 

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

True - they planned to confound the result of the referendum and did a bloody good job, I must say!

But there never was a coherent plan for leaving and no one seems to have thought it would be an idea to make one in the last two years either. 

 

Other than no deal there is not one today. No deal is a failure, a bad result for both side, no one with an ounce of sense wants it.

 

You can't blame remainers for coming up with a plan you don't like if you don't have any alternative yourself.   

[tebee]

Maybe the right compromise is to stop and think what we really want 

 

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-04-08/is-cancelling-brexit-the-prime-ministers-new-default/

 

[dunroaming]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

Davis was and is pro Brexit. He was lied to and subsequently undermined by May. 

How was that then?  She appointed him chief negotiator.  How did she lie to him?  There is this constant denial. They voted May in even after that the Brexit boys had ample opportunity to oust her and replace her but they didn't.  Surely time to see Brexit for what it always was.  A load of hot air promises based on nothing.  That is why Johnson and the Brexiteers ran for the hills when they won.  They knew the game was up and all we have had since is three years worth of squirming and pointing fingers.  Pathetic beyond belief! 

 

 

[vogie]

27 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

How was that then?  She appointed him chief negotiator.  How did she lie to him?  There is this constant denial. They voted May in even after that the Brexit boys had ample opportunity to oust her and replace her but they didn't.  Surely time to see Brexit for what it always was.  A load of hot air promises based on nothing.  That is why Johnson and the Brexiteers ran for the hills when they won.  They knew the game was up and all we have had since is three years worth of squirming and pointing fingers.  Pathetic beyond belief! 

 

 

"She appointed chief negotiator" 

All Brexit ministers were MINOs, ministers in name only, Olly Robbins was the true Brexit Minister and all the remainers made quite sure that nobody was going to undermine him. No Brexit minister would have resigned if they had been allowed to do their job, they were there to make it look that they had some leavers on board, but they were not allowed to intervene.

 

We are now 2 years down the road, still nowhere nearer to leaving, so what does May do, she jumps on ship with a Marxist Labour Party, over the heads of her cabinet and suddenly a deal may be found in a week. That should say to all that two years would have been ample time to negotiate a deal if one was wanted.

 

This is not about losing Brexit, it is more about losing democracy.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

"She appointed chief negotiator" 

All Brexit ministers were MINOs, ministers in name only, Olly Robbins was the true Brexit Minister and all the remainers made quite sure that nobody was going to undermine him. No Brexit minister would have resigned if they had been allowed to do their job, they were there to make it look that they had some leavers on board, but they were not allowed to intervene.

 

We are now 2 years down the road, still nowhere nearer to leaving, so what does May do, she jumps on ship with a Marxist Labour Party, over the heads of her cabinet and suddenly a deal may be found in a week. That should say to all that two years would have been ample time to negotiate a deal if one was wanted.

 

This is not about losing Brexit, it is more about losing democracy.

Again, always somebody else's fault.

 

The only Brexit leader who put his name up to replace Theresa May as PM was Fox, all the others did exactly as dunroaming points out - ran for the hills.

 

If the leaders of the Brexit campaign can't show up for Brexit, don't blame the failure of Brexit on Remain.

 

Brexit, failed to plan, plan to fail and with Brexit leaders who failed to lead. 

 

Edited April 8, 2019 by Chomper Higgot

[vogie]

8 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Again, always somebody else's fault.

 

The only Brexit leader who put his name up to replace Theresa May as PM was Fox, all the others did exactly as dunroaming points out - ran for the hills.

 

If the leaders of the Brexit campaign can't show up for Brexit, don't blame the failure of Brexit on Remain.

 

Brexit, failed to plan, plan to fail and with Brexit leaders who failed to lead. 

 

If the leavers had very little to with the negotiations, it would be extremely difficult to point the finger to anybody else but the remainers.

May and Robbins are very ardent remainers, so in that sense they have been sucessfull in their objective which was to keep the UK tied to the EU, in one way or another.

Democracy is the biggest loser in all this, but maybe one day you will have a vote to make a difference and the government will just say, sorry chomper, your vote is worthless, come back when you chose what we want.

 

Democracy is failing, thank you remainers.

[evadgib]

56 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Brexit, failed to plan, plan to fail and with Brexit leaders who failed to lead. 

Your monotonous oft-posted and extremely tiresome ditty is somewhat contradictory. You should instead try quoting the 5 p's.

[Nigel Garvie]

22 minutes ago, vogie said:

If the leavers had very little to with the negotiations, it would be extremely difficult to point the finger to anybody else but the remainers.

May and Robbins are very ardent remainers, so in that sense they have been sucessfull in their objective which was to keep the UK tied to the EU, in one way or another.

Democracy is the biggest loser in all this, but maybe one day you will have a vote to make a difference and the government will just say, sorry chomper, your vote is worthless, come back when you chose what we want.

 

Democracy is failing, thank you remainers.

I think we should get rid of this sacred plank of Brexiteer belief that May is a Remainer, let alone a very ardent Remainer. Surely people have enough insight to see that TM is 100% a career politician. When she thought that remain would win she nailed her colors to that mast, and gave a few rather week and unconvincing speeches for the cause. When she became PM she promptly adopted the "Brexit is Brexit" line. I despair of people who are so wedded to their cause that they can't see the blindingly obvious, SHE IS A CAREER POLITICIAN. She wanted the top job, which hard core Brexiteers avoided like the plague, and when she got it she found out that Brexit was a can of worms, which she couldn't handle. Her ambition had betrayed her into doing something wiser Tories were afraid to do.

 

Why does it surprise anyone that Remainers should carry on fighting for a cause that they believe in, after the Referendum was lost. If the Tory party loose an election does that mean that they are duty bound to adopt and support Labour party policies. There was nothing holy about this referendum that meant that normal political processes had to be suspended. The lies and deceit have been gone over many times so I won't waste space on that. But this referendum was just a snapshot (A badly flawed snapshot at that) in time. It is being treated by some as if it was unquestionable, immutable, holy, sacred, and never to be repeated, ever, under any circumstances. Life ain't like that, we learn new things all the time, and things do indeed change. A week - as we are currently only too well aware - is a long time in politics.

[malagateddy]

How was that then?  She appointed him chief negotiator.  How did she lie to him?  There is this constant denial. They voted May in even after that the Brexit boys had ample opportunity to oust her and replace her but they didn't.  Surely time to see Brexit for what it always was.  A load of hot air promises based on nothing.  That is why Johnson and the Brexiteers ran for the hills when they won.  They knew the game was up and all we have had since is three years worth of squirming and pointing fingers.  Pathetic beyond belief! 
 
 

She placed remoaning uncivil servants in his team to undermine him..eg..Olly whatshisface etc etc

Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[welovesundaysatspace]

Those hypocrites. 

 

 

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, dunroaming said:

How was that then?  She appointed him chief negotiator.  How did she lie to him?  There is this constant denial. They voted May in even after that the Brexit boys had ample opportunity to oust her and replace her but they didn't.  Surely time to see Brexit for what it always was.  A load of hot air promises based on nothing.  That is why Johnson and the Brexiteers ran for the hills when they won.  They knew the game was up and all we have had since is three years worth of squirming and pointing fingers.  Pathetic beyond belief! 

 

 

See Vogie 112 for a clue or two.

[evadgib]

21 minutes ago, Nigel Garvie said:

I think we should get rid of this sacred plank of Brexiteer belief that May is a Remainer, let alone a very ardent Remainer. Surely people have enough insight to see that TM is 100% a career politician. When she thought that remain would win she nailed her colors to that mast, and gave a few rather week and unconvincing speeches for the cause. When she became PM she promptly adopted the "Brexit is Brexit" line. I despair of people who are so wedded to their cause that they can't see the blindingly obvious, SHE IS A CAREER POLITICIAN. She wanted the top job, which hard core Brexiteers avoided like the plague, and when she got it she found out that Brexit was a can of worms, which she couldn't handle. Her ambition had betrayed her into doing something wiser Tories were afraid to do.

 

Why does it surprise anyone that Remainers should carry on fighting for a cause that they believe in, after the Referendum was lost. If the Tory party loose an election does that mean that they are duty bound to adopt and support Labour party policies. There was nothing holy about this referendum that meant that normal political processes had to be suspended. The lies and deceit have been gone over many times so I won't waste space on that. But this referendum was just a snapshot (A badly flawed snapshot at that) in time. It is being treated by some as if it was unquestionable, immutable, holy, sacred, and never to be repeated, ever, under any circumstances. Life ain't like that, we learn new things all the time, and things do indeed change. A week - as we are currently only too well aware - is a long time in politics.

 

 

Edited April 8, 2019 by evadgib

[StreetCowboy]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

If the leavers had very little to with the negotiations, it would be extremely difficult to point the finger to anybody else but the remainers.

May and Robbins are very ardent remainers, so in that sense they have been sucessfull in their objective which was to keep the UK tied to the EU, in one way or another.

Democracy is the biggest loser in all this, but maybe one day you will have a vote to make a difference and the government will just say, sorry chomper, your vote is worthless, come back when you chose what we want.

 

Democracy is failing, thank you remainers.

The Remainers are the ones suggesting we ask the people.  

 

Never mind the people, we had a referendum, and referenda must be ivied, regardless of what people want.

 

Luckily, we have a woman at the wheel, and when she finds herself on the wrong road she’s not frightened to ask for directions

[rickudon]

If Brexiteers truly believe that Remainer MPs have deliberately undermined Brexit, they would be demanding a new referendum on the deal/Hard Brexit/stay in.

 

The reality is they know they would lose another referendum. 

 

Brexiteers still think that the EU will crumble and offer a new deal to avoid Hard Brexit. Reality, Hard Brexit would reduce trade between the UK and EU, If we pick a figure of say 10% drop, how does this affect the 2 economies? EU trade is 50% of UK GDP, so a 10% cut in trade will mean a 5% cut in GDP - a serious recession. UK trade for the EU represents no more than 20% of total trade, so a 10% drop would mean a 2% cut in GDP. A mild recession.

 

So who comes off worst?

 

I am still waiting for a Brexiteer to show me how the UK will be better off economically - it is all about 'IF' we get better trade deals than the EU can get .... really?

[tebee]

21 minutes ago, Nigel Garvie said:

I think we should get rid of this sacred plank of Brexiteer belief that May is a Remainer, let alone a very ardent Remainer. Surely people have enough insight to see that TM is 100% a career politician. When she thought that remain would win she nailed her colors to that mast, and gave a few rather week and unconvincing speeches for the cause. When she became PM she promptly adopted the "Brexit is Brexit" line. I despair of people who are so wedded to their cause that they can't see the blindingly obvious, SHE IS A CAREER POLITICIAN. She wanted the top job, which hard core Brexiteers avoided like the plague, and when she got it she found out that Brexit was a can of worms, which she couldn't handle. Her ambition had betrayed her into doing something wiser Tories were afraid to do.

 

Why does it surprise anyone that Remainers should carry on fighting for a cause that they believe in, after the Referendum was lost. If the Tory party loose an election does that mean that they are duty bound to adopt and support Labour party policies. There was nothing holy about this referendum that meant that normal political processes had to be suspended. The lies and deceit have been gone over many times so I won't waste space on that. But this referendum was just a snapshot (A badly flawed snapshot at that) in time. It is being treated by some as if it was unquestionable, immutable, holy, sacred, and never to be repeated, ever, under any circumstances. Life ain't like that, we learn new things all the time, and things do indeed change. A week - as we are currently only too well aware - is a long time in politics.

Can I just say - Exactly !

 

Do any of you trust Boris as a dedicated leaver ?

[StreetCowboy]

Given the difficulty people are having in finding a way forward that achieves consensus across the nation, surely the way forward would be to start from the status quo, and make incremental changes.

 

We could take chalk and sand from Dover and Dungeness, gradually moving further away from Europe, depositing it in the Hebrides, until EdF’s reactors at Dungeness were in France rather than England.

 

Sometimes, the only solution is to think outside the box

[Basil B]

[elliss]

Our  democratically elected  PM , is dedicated  to the EU.

     DC appointed  a puppet on a string .

[nontabury]

1 hour ago, rickudon said:

If Brexiteers truly believe that Remainer MPs have deliberately undermined Brexit, they would be demanding a new referendum on the deal/Hard Brexit/stay in.

 

The reality is they know they would lose another referendum. 

 

Brexiteers still think that the EU will crumble and offer a new deal to avoid Hard Brexit. Reality, Hard Brexit would reduce trade between the UK and EU, If we pick a figure of say 10% drop, how does this affect the 2 economies? EU trade is 50% of UK GDP, so a 10% cut in trade will mean a 5% cut in GDP - a serious recession. UK trade for the EU represents no more than 20% of total trade, so a 10% drop would mean a 2% cut in GDP. A mild recession.

 

So who comes off worst?

 

I am still waiting for a Brexiteer to show me how the UK will be better off economically - it is all about 'IF' we get better trade deals than the EU can get .... really?

 

There’s no such thing as a Hard Brexit. The question at the referendum was between Remaining in the E.u or leaving. Unfortunately the British negotiating positions has been undermined from day one by the back stabbing of the remainers Led by T. May.

[StreetCowboy]

8 minutes ago, nontabury said:

 

There’s no such thing as a Hard Brexit. The question at the referendum was between Remaining in the E.u or leaving. Unfortunately the British negotiating positions has been undermined from day one by the back stabbing of the remainers Led by T. May.

Or betray the 17 million Remain votes.  The friends I have from childhood are Remainers, and will prosper in the UK or Europe, whatever happens.  Brexit will make my life in Asia harder, but not much.  

I’m glad I, nor my children, manufacture car parts in Sunderland. For those people, I struggle to see a happy future

[nontabury]

Just now, StreetCowboy said:

Or betray the 17 million Remain votes.  The friends I have from childhood are Remainers, and will prosper in the UK or Europe, whatever happens.  Brexit will make my life in Asia harder, but not much.  

I’m glad I, nor my children, manufacture car parts in Sunderland. For those people, I struggle to see a happy future

Firstly your giving a wrong figure, by stating that the remain side received 17 million votes, they did not. 

 How Brexit will/ can make your life in Asia harder,I do not know.

At the moment nobody knows the full impact of Brexit on those jobs in Sunderland, but we do know for a fact, the impact of unrestricted E.u. Immigration on the lives of millions of lower paid workers throughout the U.k.

 

 

 

[welovesundaysatspace]

From Barnier and Varadkar meeting today:

 

“Barnier is saying that even if the UK were to leave without signing the withdrawal agreement, it would have to accepted the pledges in that agreement, including on the backstop, if it ever wanted a trade deal with the EU.” ???? 

 

[tebee]

 

[Laughing Gravy]

8 hours ago, rickudon said:

If Brexiteers truly believe that Remainer MPs have deliberately undermined Brexit, they would be demanding a new referendum on the deal/Hard Brexit/stay in.

I would go for that except the stay in, as we have already had a referendum but it still would show that democracy has gone and the EU like it always does, either gets another vote, as they didn't like the result or the EU pressurise the country, into ignoring the result.

 

8 hours ago, rickudon said:

Hard Brexit would reduce trade between the UK and EU, If we pick a figure of say 10% drop, how does this affect the 2 economies?

That is the remainers argument always, lets pick a figure.

 

8 hours ago, rickudon said:

I am still waiting for a Brexiteer to show me how the UK will be better off economically - it is all about 'IF' we get better trade deals than the EU can get .... really?

Saving on an enormous divorce bill and subscriptions every year is a great financial start. Been allowed to trade with the rest of the world, instead of being thwarted by the protectionist EU.

 

The common words of remainers are could be, maybe, possibly, potentially that we have had thrown down our neck for iover 3 years. This is the bit that you just don't get.

 

Regardless of your argument of the UK would be better off economically, isn't the big issue. You can argue we wouldn't or we would. personally I believe we would be much better off in the long run. But that doesn't matter. Myself and many others want out of the EU's shackles. So your argument about economically means I and others don't give a damn.

 

The UK will be fine and is one of the strongest economies in the EU. I don't see hordes of Brits running to Poland, Romania, Spain, Greece, Italy and many other places, looking for work.

 

 

 

 

[Laughing Gravy]

13 hours ago, tebee said:

But there never was a coherent plan for leaving and no one seems to have thought it would be an idea to make one in the last two years either.

There was a very coherent plan by TM a remainer and the majority of the cabinet, remainers. Keep kicking the can down the road, have a remainer in charge of the brexit negotiations (Ollie Robbins) and frustrate the Brexit secretary (2 resigned remembers). The plan has been clear since the beginning and I am surprised you can't see that. Most people I know see very clearly.

Edited April 8, 2019 by Laughing Gravy