Denied entry at Don Meang

[jacko45k]

On 4/11/2019 at 12:01 PM, Penefattore said:

Being denied entry while having a visa is plain outrageous.

I disagree. It might depend on where that Visa was issued.

The IO may feel the issuing consulate did not confirm requirements.

Also in the case of a Multiple Entry, the 'tourist's' circumstances may have changed. 

[elviajero]

On 4/11/2019 at 6:01 AM, Penefattore said:

Thai Immigration has really gone ape.  If they want to put a limit on the days a tourist can stay in Thailand , they must issue a precise rule , so that people know if they can enter or not.

So you want to screw things up for everyone and not just the few that get stopped!

 

On 4/11/2019 at 6:01 AM, Penefattore said:

Being denied entry while having a visa is plain outrageous.

MFA website;

“10.  Royal Thai Embassies and Royal Thai Consulates-General have the authority to issue visas to foreigners for travel to Thailand.  The authority to permit entry and stay in Thailand, however, is with the immigration officers.  In some cases, the immigration officer may not permit foreigner holding a valid visa entry into Thailand should the immigration officer find reason to believe that he or she falls into the category of aliens prohibited from entering Thailand under the Immigration Act B.E. 2522 (1979).”

 

On 4/11/2019 at 6:01 AM, Penefattore said:

At the moment , they are acting like a restaurant chasing away their best customers , which is idiotic to say the least. All money gifted to Cambodia , Vietnam and Indonesia.

Or the customer that eats the bread for a starter and orders the cheapest option on the menu!

 

How much money is Thailand missing out on by reducing long term tourism? You must have the figures to back up your opinion. 

 

Thailand doesn’t have a problem with long term visitors as long as they have been vetted and hold the right visa/permit.

[JackThompson]

6 hours ago, elviajero said:

So you want to screw things up for everyone and not just the few that get stopped!

There is no reason a published-rule would need to deny-entry to everyone who exceeds it in all cases.  The minister could author it using more flexible wording.  What is needed is a "green line," below which, no worries flying in.

 

But the fact is, those doing this at the airports cannot publish an "acceptable time," because no limit of "past time in country" is legal to enforce.  The minister seems to have declined to provide them with any "defined class" based on time-limits, which they could be using now, if such existed.

 

Quote

MFA website;

“10.  Royal Thai Embassies and Royal Thai Consulates-General have the authority to issue visas to foreigners for travel to Thailand.  The authority to permit entry and stay in Thailand, however, is with the immigration officers.  In some cases, the immigration officer may not permit foreigner holding a valid visa entry into Thailand should the immigration officer find reason to believe that he or she falls into the category of aliens prohibited from entering Thailand under the Immigration Act B.E. 2522 (1979).”

But, they tell folks straight-up they are denying entry for a reason which is not listed as a "category of aliens prohibited from entering." 

 

Quote

Or the customer that eats the bread for a starter and orders the cheapest option on the menu!

You mean retirees?  Just 15K-25K/yr to an agent, and can live like a pauper with no problems from immigration.  Those doing repeat-tourist entries, having no agent-option, and need far more cash-flow - travel, visas, extensions, etc - to spend much time here. 

 

Neither are doing any harm, though, since the foreign-capital spending is all upside for Thailand.  And there is no "free bread," to factor-in, since Thailand offers no welfare for foreigners. 

 

OTOH, the "package tour" types spend very little, and are replaced by one of their fellows the minute they leave - so how is one visitor staying 300 days different than 50 visitors staying the same period, while spending less per-each per-day, and maxing-out the infrastructure?

 

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How much money is Thailand missing out on by reducing long term tourism? You must have the figures to back up your opinion. 

What are your figures?  Include the thousands who left when back-to-back Visa Exempts became more difficult, then more when 2x Tourist Visas went away, then more when the airports became unusable to any non-risk-taker staying more than a couple months /yr total as a tourist.   A good metric would be how many Thais lost their jobs - figuring several jobs for each foreigner immigration drove away.

 

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Thailand doesn’t have a problem with long term visitors as long as they have been vetted and hold the right visa/permit.

If the vetting for those with Tourist Visas is unacceptable, they can take it up with the MFA - not us.  The "least vetted" are people who have spent less time here, so do not have a track-record of reliable-income spending - clearly supporting themselves. 

 

And I don't think it is just a coincidence the long-term options have an "agent" option, and tourist-entries don't, and tourist-entries are the "problem" to immigration.

Edited April 13, 2019 by JackThompson

[Penefattore]

23 hours ago, elviajero said:

So you want to screw things up for everyone and not just the few that get stopped.

no , I want to avoid people wasting money for air tickets and hotel reservations only to be bounced at the airport and have to waste more money to buy another air ticket and reserve another accommodation.

[elviajero]

31 minutes ago, Penefattore said:

23 hours ago, elviajero said:

So you want to screw things up for everyone and not just the few that get stopped.

no , I want to avoid people wasting money for air tickets and hotel reservations only to be bounced at the airport and have to waste more money to buy another air ticket and reserve another accommodation.

And the price to pay for a few people being inconvenienced (most know the risk) is that everyone gets limited to 180 days per year or similar.

 

Anyone that hasn’t got the message that you can be denied if you stay too long as a tourist has their head in the sand and only themselves to blame if trying to beat the system.

[zhangxifu]

I for sure would want to see it in writing and confirmed if i were to plan on 6 months in Thailand, 6 months in Malaysia or similar yearly planning and investing in it. But now the worry would still be there. So yes, clear rules would be better.

[mngmn]

On 4/11/2019 at 3:10 PM, thecyclist said:

A new passport, in all likelihood, will help:IOs usually do not pay much attention attention to the screen, but they often go back and forth through the passport. I have been going in and out for decades :They would have to scroll down the screen to get all my entries, never see them do it, hardly even look at the computer :but had officer engrossed in my passport for minutes. So to to say that a new passport can't hurt is an understatement. 

Certainly my experience. One of my two passports is half full of Thai entry stamps the other has never been used to enter Thailand.

 

Recently made two entries on the 'clean' passport with no comment from IO. Plenty of flicking through pages but hardly any reference to the screen.

 

When I got a new passport last year, I was told by Thai staff at my embassy I MUST get the new passport linked to the old one by Thai Immigration. This was achieved by a manual process that involved lots of paper forms, initialing and stamping.

 

Sure, the system could do a search on my full name and date of birth every time I enter and list all matches but for me alone that would throw up a list of four or five passports that the IO would need to review.

 

Contrary to popular belief, many people share the exact same name and date of birth. This was one of the original reasons for the introduction of the SSN in the US. In some countries the problem is far worse. For example, there are literally millions of Indians that have the surname Patel.

 

The software the IOs are using was developed and is maintained by the same people who brought you online 90 Day Reporting and the Vientiane Embassy Appointment Booking System. It is quite possible that some information is only available to IOs after they follow a labyrinth of on screen menus and commands.

 

I honestly believe that the capabilities of the Thai immigration system and the abilities of the IOs to use it, are vastly overrated by many on TV.

[JackThompson]

22 hours ago, elviajero said:

And the price to pay for a few people being inconvenienced (most know the risk) is that everyone gets limited to 180 days per year or similar.

The rule would not have to have a hard-limit.  What we need, is a "no problem" timeframe.  But, they cannot publish one, because it is illegal to deny-entry on that basis.

 

The only anti-published-rule argument I can think of, is that all land-border entry points but one follow existing law, so people can use those w/o issue.  A new rule might mess that up. 

 

22 hours ago, elviajero said:

Anyone that hasn’t got the message that you can be denied if you stay too long as a tourist has their head in the sand and only themselves to blame if trying to beat the system.

How long?  That's the problem.  No one knows, because it seems to be invented on-the-spot. 

 

And visitors aren't trying to "beat" anything by following published law.  It's the IOs who are trying to "beat the system" by denying-entry for an illegal reason, then hiding their action behind an irrelevant denial-stamp.

[thecyclist]

7 hours ago, mngmn said:

Certainly my experience. One of my two passports is half full of Thai entry stamps the other has never been used to enter Thailand.

 

Recently made two entries on the 'clean' passport with no comment from IO. Plenty of flicking through pages but hardly any reference to the screen.

 

When I got a new passport last year, I was told by Thai staff at my embassy I MUST get the new passport linked to the old one by Thai Immigration. This was achieved by a manual process that involved lots of paper forms, initialing and stamping.

 

Sure, the system could do a search on my full name and date of birth every time I enter and list all matches but for me alone that would throw up a list of four or five passports that the IO would need to review.

 

Contrary to popular belief, many people share the exact same name and date of birth. This was one of the original reasons for the introduction of the SSN in the US. In some countries the problem is far worse. For example, there are literally millions of Indians that have the surname Patel.

 

The software the IOs are using was developed and is maintained by the same people who brought you online 90 Day Reporting and the Vientiane Embassy Appointment Booking System. It is quite possible that some information is only available to IOs after they follow a labyrinth of on screen menus and commands.

 

I honestly believe that the capabilities of the Thai immigration system and the abilities of the IOs to use it, are vastly overrated by many on TV.

Here is another anecdote that illustrate this point :Some time ago I got an extension at Rayong immigration, where they must have stamped the wrong date on the extension stamp, because the date was 'deleted' with white-out, and a new/correct date was stamped beside it. When departing at Poipet (that was before Poipet became a problematic crossing), the IO eyed the white-out suspiciously, probably thinking that I personally had done a few alterations. I told her in Thai that this was not so, and she said she had to make sure, and would I please step over to the desk behind the immigration counter. I pointed to her computer and asked her why she didn't use it for confirmation. She said that this computer can't do it, but the computer over there can. 

[Penefattore]

On 4/14/2019 at 2:31 PM, elviajero said:

And the price to pay for a few people being inconvenienced (most know the risk) is that everyone gets limited to 180 days per year or similar.

 

Anyone that hasn’t got the message that you can be denied if you stay too long as a tourist has their head in the sand and only themselves to blame if trying to beat the system.

but holy crap , if I don't know how much is "too long"  how can I plot my trip back to Thailand ? This uncertainty has potential devastating consequences as many previous visitors are scared to come back

[onera1961]

but holy crap , if I don't know how much is "too long"  how can I plot my trip back to Thailand ? This uncertainty has potential devastating consequences as many previous visitors are scared to come back

The same way you plan your trip when visiting other countries. Just ignore Thailand and think you're going to Japan, Singapore, or Hong Kong. How r u going to plan your trip?

Sent from my JKM-LX2 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Peterbilt]

56 minutes ago, Penefattore said:

but holy crap , if I don't know how much is "too long"  how can I plot my trip back to Thailand ? This uncertainty has potential devastating consequences as many previous visitors are scared to come back

Absolutely. I'm one of them. Cut down the number of trips for this year from 4 to 2.
Next year? Uncertain if I visit Thailand. I'd like to have a vacation there and spend a few 100,000 Baht doing so, but I have to fear to be treated like a criminal by some IOs just because of a few stamps in the passport.

 

 

31 minutes ago, onera1961 said:

The same way you plan your trip when visiting other countries. Just ignore Thailand and think you're going to Japan, Singapore, or Hong Kong. How r u going to plan your trip?

Sent from my JKM-LX2 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

I don't know the visa regulations of the countries you mentioned, but before I plan another vacation in the same country again, I will surely check if my plans are according to those countries laws.
But if you look for a time limit there simply is none in Thailand. It would be pretty easy for an embassy to deny a back to back visa application or for the immigration denying an extension of visa exempt / tourist visa if the applicant has already spend the maximum allowed time in the country.
But thats logical western thinking which does not fill any pockets......

[balo]

43 minutes ago, Peterbilt said:

Uncertain if I visit Thailand. I'd like to have a vacation there and spend a few 100,000 Baht doing so, but I have to fear to be treated like a criminal by some IOs just because of a few stamps in the passport.

Try Cambo, VIetnam, Bahamas. 

 

[JackThompson]

15 hours ago, Penefattore said:

but holy crap , if I don't know how much is "too long"  how can I plot my trip back to Thailand ? This uncertainty has potential devastating consequences as many previous visitors are scared to come back

That's the idea - fear.  That is what this clique in control of a few entry-points want - you (and others) never coming back - or, at least, not often or for very long.  They don't care about the Thais this policy harms, as your money is spent in Vietnam, etc instead.  

[mngmn]

1 hour ago, JackThompson said:

That is what this clique in control of a few entry-points want - you (and others) never coming back - or, at least, not often or for very long.

More than happy to oblige them ????

[JackThompson]

19 hours ago, onera1961 said:

The same way you plan your trip when visiting other countries. Just ignore Thailand and think you're going to Japan, Singapore, or Hong Kong. How r u going to plan your trip?

Those are expensive places, so 99% of folks won't be staying long or often.  People stay in Thailand more-often/longer because it is a "discount" vacation destination - similar to Cambodia, Vietnam, Latin America, and parts of the Caribbean - all of which have a large portion of their populations who struggle to get above a bare-subsistence income. 

 

Of course, those other countries recognize this, and treat visitors from higher-wage nations in a welcoming way, to ensure the more-frequent / longer stays which maximize the spending/revenue which benefits their citizens.   Thailand seems to want to pretend to be like Singapore in terms of tourist-immigration, yet while their working-class is paid like Mexicans (~$10 USD / day) - even creating a cheap-worker "LA-Visa," to ensure Thai wages remain low. 

 

Granted, HK, Singapore and Japan (also Taiwan and South Korea) developed when global capital was willing to pay relatively-higher labor-wages to counter the appeal of communism.  Some even received "free trade" cutouts to the USA at a time when tariff-barriers to protect the working-class were still high (fueling the early Asian-Tiger syndrome).  Those conditions no longer exist, given the belief that - in the absence of the USSR and the sellout of China (from a Marxist-perspective) - capitalist countries don't have to demonstrate a "better life for workers than communism," any more.  

Edited April 17, 2019 by JackThompson