Australian-rules-football-afl-chatting-tipping-and-news

[optad]

3 minutes ago, BookMan said:

 

I wouldn't use the word naive.

 

Arrogant in it's implementation, almost wanton in it's execution and uncaring in the detrimental effect it has on the players involved.

The root of the problem lies somewhere near the god like status his name had at Essendon and a lack of oversight.  

Naive, Hird was not.

Hird had not served an apprenticeship in any AFL tertiary form.  THe fact that the club permitted this was another error, hird thinking he could coach without one might be your arrogance, but his management of team and the poor decisions were ill-informed and I think naive. Apprenticeships are there for reasons. He should have served one.  

[BookMan]

10 hours ago, optad said:

Hird had not served an apprenticeship in any AFL tertiary form.  THe fact that the club permitted this was another error, hird thinking he could coach without one might be your arrogance, but his management of team and the poor decisions were ill-informed and I think naive. Apprenticeships are there for reasons. He should have served one.  

 

There are always reasons we can grasp on to for someone doing something wrong.

I don't consider Lance Armstrong naive for taking drugs, likewise i don't consider Hird naive in the supplement scheme

[ozzydom]

12 hours ago, optad said:

Shame the men in the dee cannot kick like that...

 

too soon?

The action reminds me of Darren Bennett,boy could he roost a sherrin.

[Will27]

11 hours ago, optad said:

Hird had not served an apprenticeship in any AFL tertiary form.  THe fact that the club permitted this was another error, hird thinking he could coach without one might be your arrogance, but his management of team and the poor decisions were ill-informed and I think naive. Apprenticeships are there for reasons. He should have served one.  

Michael Voss did the same thing and his career ended badly.

Voss has said if he had his time again, he would've done things differently

 

I remember John Worsfold when taking up his first coaching appointment under David Parkin at Carlton.

He wanted to get out of Perth and see what it was like at another club.

 

Leigh Matthews said while ago that it is too hard a job (head coach) without working as an assistant first.

Clubs who appoint a head coach without experience get what they deserve.

 

I think Essendon thought having Bomber Thompson as an assistant would make a difference.

 

David Parkin has said previously, " no matter how good a player is/was or how much of a good bloke he is,

you can never tell if he will able to coach until he's done it".

 

 

[optad]

1 hour ago, BookMan said:

 

There are always reasons we can grasp on to for someone doing something wrong.

I don't consider Lance Armstrong naive for taking drugs, likewise i don't consider Hird naive in the supplement scheme

Sry BM but I don't think Armstrong's,  deliberate and systematic cheating over seven plus years,  equates at to what should have been a legal supplement regime  at EFC. The ethics of 'supplements' is grey for me but in the letter of the law they are legal and wide spread. Wider than we think I suggest. 

 

My point is Hird should not have been allowed on these adventures without oversight. Trusting people with resumes and past stories in cafes about what they can do performance is awfully dumb and stupid and naive given he really was not about to engage systematic cheating practices. It was the misplaced trust which shaped affair. 

 

But surely we are all tired of this one by now. Very sad about how he seems to have internalised it though. The road gets longer back....

Edited January 6, 2017 by optad

[optad]

5 hours ago, ozzydom said:

The action reminds me of Darren Bennett,boy could he roost a sherrin.

He could couldn't he! Made his money in the states though. 

 

 

 

 

[Thechook]

8 hours ago, BookMan said:

 

There are always reasons we can grasp on to for someone doing something wrong.

I don't consider Lance Armstrong naive for taking drugs, likewise i don't consider Hird naive in the supplement scheme

He is a grown man and not a kid.  Yes books I agree he wasnt naive.  I respected the guy as a player, he was great.  I have no respect for the cheating scum now and essendon are scum also and below collingwood.  They cheated, sat out for a year and got rewarded for cheating with prime draft picks.  Absolutely sickening and should have been banned from the draft also or taken the order they finished in 2015

[farmerjo]

Every body goes through tough patches in their life.

There's a lot of honest guys out there who contribute week in week out in all levels of footy

to make there clubs great or most to make them survive.

Hird is a Bad name for the game and the sooner it's forgotten the better.

[farmerjo]

10 hours ago, ozzydom said:

The action reminds me of Darren Bennett,boy could he roost a sherrin.

East fremantle boy.

[BookMan]

10 hours ago, optad said:

Sry BM but I don't think Armstrong's,  deliberate and systematic cheating over seven plus years,  equates at to what should have been a legal supplement regime  at EFC. The ethics of 'supplements' is grey for me but in the letter of the law they are legal and wide spread. Wider than we think I suggest. 

 

My point is Hird should not have been allowed on these adventures without oversight. Trusting people with resumes and past stories in cafes about what they can do performance is awfully dumb and stupid and naive given he really was not about to engage systematic cheating practices. It was the misplaced trust which shaped affair. 

 

But surely we are all tired of this one by now. Very sad about how he seems to have internalised it though. The road gets longer back....

 

Good grief Optad!!
You are now portraying Hird as an almost innocent victim.  It is a re-writing of the intent in his history in a scheme he knew was in the shades of illegal and a scheme he tried to cover up and remove records of.

The buck stopped with Hird on that one. His relied on his reputation and exalted position within the club to force some needles into young men's arms. Injecting supplements of an unknown mix. We don't know do we?

 

The oversight as one issue and the lack of coaching experience as the second issue and the players not knowing they can say no as their right as the third issue, are linked but surely  not the causation of Hird, as a mature man, making the decision to dope his players.

How many excuses does Hird need from people to explain away what were selfish actions from himself in his quest to win. 

We will have to disagree on this one.

 

 

Edited January 6, 2017 by BookMan

[BookMan]

2 hours ago, Thechook said:

He is a grown man and not a kid.  Yes books I agree he wasnt naive.  I respected the guy as a player, he was great.  I have no respect for the cheating scum now and essendon are scum also and below collingwood.  They cheated, sat out for a year and got rewarded for cheating with prime draft picks.  Absolutely sickening and should have been banned from the draft also or taken the order they finished in 2015

 

I agree about the draft picks.  Reward for poor behaviour at a club level.

[optad]

5 hours ago, BookMan said:

 

Good grief Optad!!
You are now portraying Hird as an almost innocent victim.  It is a re-writing of the intent in his history in a scheme he knew was in the shades of illegal and a scheme he tried to cover up and remove records of.

The buck stopped with Hird on that one. His relied on his reputation and exalted position within the club to force some needles into young men's arms. Injecting supplements of an unknown mix. We don't know do we?

 

The oversight as one issue and the lack of coaching experience as the second issue and the players not knowing they can say no as their right as the third issue, are linked but surely  not the causation of Hird, as a mature man, making the decision to dope his players.

How many excuses does Hird need from people to explain away what were selfish actions from himself in his quest to win. 

We will have to disagree on this one.

 

 

I will be clear on  a few things re this and leave it. The bomberblitz thread on  same topic is about 5000 pages long. 

 

The buck does stop with Hird. I have never said otherwise and held that point of view, recalcitrantly in some quarters, since some months post Feb 2013. It is inarguable imo. In no way should you suggest i am portraying hird as innocent nor not the agent who created the seeds of this drama.

 

Nor am i offering "excuses". I certainly think some mitigation is needed on overzealous personal conclusions because they are easier perhaps  or because as tribal beings in football, we are not always rational. For example. "forcing needles", Hird covering up,  knew illegalities.... are all nice conjectures attributed to hird because these things did happen at the the club. 

 

In my view he is responsible for the affair because of gross mismanagement, and giving license for other  appalling candidates such as Robinson and Dank to wield their playtime craft on unsuspecting profession athletes. A terrible indictment and he stands condemned for that but to say hird encouraged cheating and illegal substances is wrong and clearly beyond any reasonable conclusion from facts, unless you just wish it to be so.

 

Hird clearly stated everything needed to be WADA compliant, yet how did the injections become, in the eyes of CAS - a 'comfortably satisfied' transgression of non compliance. That is the rub right there. I know it is not neatly packaged for the categoricals but that is it. 

 

I can reel all the tin tacks of the episode and go into boring details re this and that but i am  totally over it. I blame Hird, Hamilton that <deleted> Robson, then Robinson and Dank and that chemist.... what a joke letting all these reprobates into my club. I am livid. And why was Bruce Reid separated from the communication channels? 

 

As to guilt, it was largely the finding of Thymosin beta four in the fridge that got them, secured a comfortably satisfied finding where reasonable doubt and non positive tests could not secure guilt. In my mind, they just should NOT have been playing on edges and concentrated on football, on  kicking goals. I personally feel too, that there are generational values lacking here, some basic life principles missing, but now I conject my own opinions. Going off site for injections should have had the self reflexive measure  needed to cease but it did not.

 

For me re guilt, it was the records going missing, and excluding Reid which was most unforgivable and shows a meddling not confined to just one past profiled player cum coach. Shoot the messenger alone if you like but so much more was being coopted. 

 

I am glad it's over but can still have concerns for hird's well being. I understand chook's comment that we are now worse than collingwood. I had a good laugh at the need to compare EFC to the pies and it does illustrate the tribal aspects of our attachment to the game. I think we have paid our dues, other will disagree which is fine. 

 

 

 

[AlexRRR]

On 06/01/2017 at 11:16 PM, farmerjo said:

East fremantle boy.

 

Made is name at the Dee's kid.....wont forget the goal he kicked from centre heading east, turned the game around for us we hadnt wont at the Hill in 17 straight years...

[AlexRRR]

16 hours ago, optad said:

I will be clear on  a few things re this and leave it. The bomberblitz thread on  same topic is about 5000 pages long. 

 

The buck does stop with Hird. I have never said otherwise and held that point of view, recalcitrantly in some quarters, since some months post Feb 2013. It is inarguable imo. In no way should you suggest i am portraying hird as innocent nor not the agent who created the seeds of this drama.

 

Nor am i offering "excuses". I certainly think some mitigation is needed on overzealous personal conclusions because they are easier perhaps  or because as tribal beings in football, we are not always rational. For example. "forcing needles", Hird covering up,  knew illegalities.... are all nice conjectures attributed to hird because these things did happen at the the club. 

 

In my view he is responsible for the affair because of gross mismanagement, and giving license for other  appalling candidates such as Robinson and Dank to wield their playtime craft on unsuspecting profession athletes. A terrible indictment and he stands condemned for that but to say hird encouraged cheating and illegal substances is wrong and clearly beyond any reasonable conclusion from facts, unless you just wish it to be so.

 

Hird clearly stated everything needed to be WADA compliant, yet how did the injections become, in the eyes of CAS - a 'comfortably satisfied' transgression of non compliance. That is the rub right there. I know it is not neatly packaged for the categoricals but that is it. 

 

I can reel all the tin tacks of the episode and go into boring details re this and that but i am  totally over it. I blame Hird, Hamilton that <deleted> Robson, then Robinson and Dank and that chemist.... what a joke letting all these reprobates into my club. I am livid. And why was Bruce Reid separated from the communication channels? 

 

As to guilt, it was largely the finding of Thymosin beta four in the fridge that got them, secured a comfortably satisfied finding where reasonable doubt and non positive tests could not secure guilt. In my mind, they just should NOT have been playing on edges and concentrated on football, on  kicking goals. I personally feel too, that there are generational values lacking here, some basic life principles missing, but now I conject my own opinions. Going off site for injections should have had the self reflexive measure  needed to cease but it did not.

 

For me re guilt, it was the records going missing, and excluding Reid which was most unforgivable and shows a meddling not confined to just one past profiled player cum coach. Shoot the messenger alone if you like but so much more was being coopted. 

 

I am glad it's over but can still have concerns for hird's well being. I understand chook's comment that we are now worse than collingwood. I had a good laugh at the need to compare EFC to the pies and it does illustrate the tribal aspects of our attachment to the game. I think we have paid our dues, other will disagree which is fine. 

 

 

 

 

You got a lot to learn optus.....once the brothers here have something there like bulldogs with a bone in there mouth....

 

Once merda hit the fan...A he should have stepped down, B if not the club should have stepped him down...thats how it is in other avenues of life, the guy was trying to save his licence as much as much as the players at first thought it was obvious before to long just exactly what he was trying to save, for me the biggest question is "why did the club allow the crap to continue for as long as it did?"  The charges were to serious to ignore and many a fine person has walked away until cleared.

[BookMan]

2 hours ago, AlexRRR said:

 

You got a lot to learn optus.....once the brothers here have something there like bulldogs with a bone in there mouth....

 

 

 

We are lucky to have you AlexRR as the voice of impartiality and sane reasoning to be the middle ground in any disagreements.

 

[farmerjo]

Anyone got an idea of what Pavlich is on as president of the AFLPA?

 

[AlexRRR]

AFL monopoly yep only $60, I noticed WCE right next to go to jail obviously this game surfaced before the Essendon saga....


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[optad]

On 1/8/2017 at 0:09 AM, AlexRRR said:

 

You got a lot to learn optus.....once the brothers here have something there like bulldogs with a bone in there mouth....

 

Once merda hit the fan...A he should have stepped down, B if not the club should have stepped him down...thats how it is in other avenues of life, the guy was trying to save his licence as much as much as the players at first thought it was obvious before to long just exactly what he was trying to save, for me the biggest question is "why did the club allow the crap to continue for as long as it did?"  The charges were to serious to ignore and many a fine person has walked away until cleared.

This thread is a bit like being in the front bar listening the world being reconstructed by the regulars through their empty ponies.

 

Patronising part aside, you are polarised by the person.

The primary issue then was whether an infraction had occurred by the players [via the club]. The players/club was not proven beyond reasonable doubt to have done so [asada/afl], nor was there a positive test to justify sackings. Altering the criteria of ‘guilt’ changed the outcome.

Could not even guarantee a bringing the game into disreputable state dismissal for Hird until that was finalised.

Happy for you to bang on about Hird if you like but frame the context correctly.

[Old Croc]

9 minutes ago, optad said:

 

The primary issue then was whether an infraction had occurred by the players [via the club]. The players/club was not proven beyond reasonable doubt to have done so [asada/afl], nor was there a positive test to justify sackings. Altering the criteria of ‘guilt’ changed the outcome.

 

Could not even guarantee a bringing the game into disreputable state dismissal for Hird until that was finalised.

 

Happy for you to bang on about Hird if you like but frame the context correctly.

 

 

I pulled this from Wikipedia and, even for someone with my basic level of legal training, I fully agree with the findings of CAS.

The missing "links of evidence"  used by the AFL tribunal to dismiss the case was incorrect in their opinion.

CAS found that The "Strands of a Cable" point to a sufficiently strong case for a guilty ruling,

The last sentence in the attached is also quite telling.

2016: Court of Arbitration for Sport verdict[edit]

On 12 January 2016, CAS handed down a guilty verdict on the thirty-four Essendon players, overturning the not-guilty verdict, after finding it was comfortably satisfied that the players were injected with Thymosin beta-4.^[59] Key to the success of the appeal was the treatment of evidence: the CAS rejected the AFL Tribunal's approach, known as "links in the chain", where any given chain of evidence is dismissed if a link within it cannot be proven, and endorsed WADA's approach, known as "strands in the cable", where individual evidence chains with missing links may still be accepted if the combination of all such chains forms a sufficiently strong case. A complete account of the verdict and the arguments made by each side was released publicly.^[60]

Vital to the case was the determination of whether or not the unspecified Thymosin used in the program was the banned Thymosin Beta-4 or a different, legal variety of Thymosin. A paper trail had confirmed that Dank had been dispensed Thymosin Beta-4 by the Como Compounding Pharmacy; however, no direct evidence was found that it was this Thymosin rather than a different legal Thymosin which had been administered to players, and this missing evidence link had been key to the AFL Tribunal's not guilty verdict under the 'links in the chain' evidence consideration. Part of the WADA submission to the appeal, which the CAS accepted in its comfortable satisfaction of guilt, was that Thymosin Beta-4 was the only form of Thymosin which would have had the soft tissue recovery effect that Dank had attributed to it – text messages from Dank had specifically described Thymosin as the cornerstone of the soft tissue recovery program. Two urine samples taken from Essendon players during 2012 were also found to contain elevated levels of Thymosin Beta-4; the levels were not sufficiently high to constitute a failed drug test, but they added to the cable of evidence against the players.^[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essendon_Football_Club_supplements_saga

[optad]

1 minute ago, Old Croc said:

 

I pulled this from Wikipedia and, even for someone with my basic level of legal training, I fully agree with the findings of CAS.

The missing "links of evidence"  used by the AFL tribunal to dismiss the case was incorrect in their opinion.

CAS found that The "Strands of a Cable" point to a sufficiently strong case for a guilty ruling,

The last sentence in the attached is also quite telling.

2016: Court of Arbitration for Sport verdict[edit]

On 12 January 2016, CAS handed down a guilty verdict on the thirty-four Essendon players, overturning the not-guilty verdict, after finding it was comfortably satisfied that the players were injected with Thymosin beta-4.^[59] Key to the success of the appeal was the treatment of evidence: the CAS rejected the AFL Tribunal's approach, known as "links in the chain", where any given chain of evidence is dismissed if a link within it cannot be proven, and endorsed WADA's approach, known as "strands in the cable", where individual evidence chains with missing links may still be accepted if the combination of all such chains forms a sufficiently strong case. A complete account of the verdict and the arguments made by each side was released publicly.^[60]

Vital to the case was the determination of whether or not the unspecified Thymosin used in the program was the banned Thymosin Beta-4 or a different, legal variety of Thymosin. A paper trail had confirmed that Dank had been dispensed Thymosin Beta-4 by the Como Compounding Pharmacy; however, no direct evidence was found that it was this Thymosin rather than a different legal Thymosin which had been administered to players, and this missing evidence link had been key to the AFL Tribunal's not guilty verdict under the 'links in the chain' evidence consideration. Part of the WADA submission to the appeal, which the CAS accepted in its comfortable satisfaction of guilt, was that Thymosin Beta-4 was the only form of Thymosin which would have had the soft tissue recovery effect that Dank had attributed to it – text messages from Dank had specifically described Thymosin as the cornerstone of the soft tissue recovery program. Two urine samples taken from Essendon players during 2012 were also found to contain elevated levels of Thymosin Beta-4; the levels were not sufficiently high to constitute a failed drug test, but they added to the cable of evidence against the players.^[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essendon_Football_Club_supplements_saga

Thanks Croc

 

There is nothing there that i disagree with nor have railed against here or elsewhere. I am not an apologist for hird nor the club introducing this episode which beyond my value system. 

 

Hird's great error was the thin edge from which all things fell. It is a terrible story. A sorry saga. It would not have happened under sheedy/

[joboss]

“Links in the chain”  v  “ “strands in the cable”   ,  interesting , intriguing,,,,  I am passing it on to .. my lovely daughter studying law at Melbourne Uni, currently temp intern at  Hurights Osaka writing a paper for anti-discrimination legislation in Japan.

One broken link is a chain failed, whereas the cable tenaciously hangs on until the last strand parts.

She will be straight on to the fact that the last stand of the cable would likely hang on  until the client has run out of money…

[optad]

Just now, joboss said:

“Links in the chain”  v  “ “strands in the cable”   ,  interesting , intriguing,,,,  I am passing it on to .. my lovely daughter studying law at Melbourne Uni, currently temp intern at  Hurights Osaka writing a paper for anti-discrimination legislation in Japan.

 

One broken link is a chain failed, whereas the cable tenaciously hangs on until the last strand parts.

 

She will be straight on to the fact that the last stand of the cable would likely hang on  until the client has run out of money…

 

Funny you you should pick those exact phrases as that was the critical learning point for me too.

 

"strand in the cable"  has a commonsensical aspect although i cannot see it always working in a precedent scario. Might ask your daughter that one. Obviously different courts work differently but that gave me a nice insight into how legal processes overstep their own narrative to find conclusion. 

 

Nice excerpt Joboss. 

 

Note too, Crocs point that thymosin was present if below limits. I am not surprised the nefariousness went into actual practice but it goes to show you give fools their own head, bad things follow. 

[farmerjo]

I'm confused with all the big words,never mind i played footy.

[BookMan]

20 minutes ago, farmerjo said:

I'm confused with all the big words,never mind i played footy.

 

You need to understand Italian or maybe it is about a hitman who has become leader of Mexico.

 

Quote

precedent scario

 

[optad]

Mi dispiace, io parlo italiano un poco male/ ma  la mia ortografia è molto cattivo anche in inglese.

Come si dice petulante in klingon? 

 

Qualche consiglio, rilassati e non preoccuparti, sii felice.

---

'scenario' was the typo for the grammar poolice. 

 

 

[ozzydom]

10 hours ago, optad said:

Mi dispiace, io parlo italiano un poco male/ ma  la mia ortografia è molto cattivo anche in inglese.

Come si dice petulante in klingon? 

 

Qualche consiglio, rilassati e non preoccuparti, sii felice.

---

'scenario' was the typo for the grammar poolice. 

 

 

It will be great to get back to chatting footy rather than trying to decipher the garbage being posted lately,

Many of us  here are common working class and find all these big words and foreign language posts  very boring

Pounds to peanuts even Kevin Sheedy would be at a loss

[Radar501]

 grammar poolice......really?

[joboss]

Federica Ridolfi:   Italian..

 

[BookMan]

 

13 minutes ago, joboss said:

Federica Ridolfi:   Italian..

 

 

A handsum man such as yourself must speak a few languages 

[BookMan]

Nic Nat to play again by 2019!!!

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2017-01-09/nic-naitanui-back-in-the-running-for-first-time-after-surgery

 

Official!! AFL Standover tactics! Leave my son alone!

 AFL officials were "thugs" and "bullies" without "a moral compass" 

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2017-01-10/james-hird-was-let-down-by-people-he-trusted-says-father

 

Dion Prestia smokie for Brownlow!!

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2017-01-10/prestia-morris-impress-at-richmond-training-after-knee-surgeries

 

Edited January 10, 2017 by BookMan