Do you believe in God and why

[Tippaporn]

1 hour ago, xylophone said:

On the contrary, your question was the tactic you used to try and elicit the response you wanted, and not a "genuine" question, and it is a very simple argumentative technique. And as for not being able to answer your question, well I did, this after enquiring as to whether you were serious or not with the question, to which a child would know the answer, so why ask it?

 

As for natural selection, well I will follow the experts on this...........

Coyne concludes his introduction with the bold statement that “all the evidence — both old and new — leads ineluctably to the conclusion that evolution is true.

In this succinct and accessible summary of the facts supporting the theory of natural selection, Jerry A. Coyne dispels common misunderstandings and fears about evolution and clearly confirms the scientific truth that supports this amazing process of change.
 

Where's the link to the article?

There's information available which you haven't heard that totally destroys both the theory of evolution, which is supported in part by another theory, natural selection, and that theory as well.  The fact that the theory completely ignores the role of consciousness, or life itself, is to completely ignore a valid point.  The theories ignore so much else, which information is also not known to you.  You make the fatal assumption that all of the information related to both theories is in.  Not so, my friend.

But since you are immovable in your "beliefs" I do agree that your best bet is to take your ball and go home since concluding that  responding to any opposition to your "belief" by "nonsensical" people is waste of your precious time.  If you don't receive the immediate and universal agreement to your "beliefs" that you demand you throw in the towel.  At 75 that attitude doesn't evidence maturity.

 

Edited September 13, 2022 by Tippaporn

[thaibeachlovers]

On 9/12/2022 at 9:02 PM, Thunglom said:

That view is probably more down to your own biology than anything else.

Should that not be my own "psychology"?

[thaibeachlovers]

On 9/13/2022 at 12:11 AM, mauGR1 said:

Groupthink is a phenomenon that occurs when the desire for group consensus overrides people's common sense desire to present alternatives, critique a position, or express an unpopular opinion. 

 

Apparently agnostics are not immune to group thinking. 

I'd guess roughly 70%, or even more, of the human population are severely affected. 

I was an agnostic till I started to take an interest in nature. The evidence that God exists is all around- one only has to look to see. It helped in that I had a "road to Damascus" moment though.

 

What I don't get though, is why atheists are so bothered by those that do believe? How does it affect them if people believe?

Dislike religion by all means, but religion is not necessary to believe in God.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 9/11/2022 at 9:06 PM, Sparktrader said:

20 blokes

No women

No entertainment

 

What could go wrong!

 

11 blokes

 

No women was great. Meant we didn't have to worry about what women thought and could be men, not wimps. It was only when a bunch of them came down after winter over that I realised how restrictive having them around is. They were even criticizing the guys for having Playboy magazines.

 

What are you on about? We actually worked most of the day, and had the bar and movies for after work. No tv ( which was excellent given how much rubbish is on tv- I don't watch it anymore ), but we had a movie every evening, and there was an excellent library. I read a lot there.

I went 10 pin bowling and played volleyball at the American base, where I also visited friends.

We had hobbies like photography and making things.

Pretty much life as it is lived back in home country.

I certainly had enough "entertainment" so I reckon you must think women are "entertainment".

[mauGR1]

2 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

What I don't get though, is why atheists are so bothered by those that do believe? How does it affect them if people believe?

Apparently people's minds are being manipulated as we speak.

I'm quite busy myself just trying to understand what's going to happen next.

Yet, living the precious moment, and clearing the mind from useless stuff should be a priority imho.

So, let them think what they want to think, it's none of my business anyway. 

[thaibeachlovers]

On 9/12/2022 at 5:14 PM, xylophone said:

 

Now children, no more fairy stories for today, so go outside and play for a while!

You can believe or not believe whatever you choose, but you don't get to tell us what to do or believe.

[Woof999]

23 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

The evidence that God exists is all around

Please do elaborate. What is this evidence?

 

16 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

There's information available which you haven't heard that totally destroys both the theory of evolution

There is? Where?

 

24 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

What I don't get though, is why atheists are so bothered by those that do believe?

That's a two way street. What is the name that you would call someone that doesn't believe in unicorns, or leprechauns or fairies? Why does someone that doesn't believe in a god needs to be labelled as anything? I'm not a mechanic. Does that make me an amechanic?

 

6 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

You can believe or not believe whatever you choose, but you don't get to tell us what to do or believe.

Right back at you. If you have faith then that's all well and good. You can believe in anything you like. However, once you try and teach children your unproven beliefs, or run a government based on those beliefs, I start to have a problem. A big problem.

[mauGR1]

9 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

You can believe or not believe whatever you choose, but you don't get to tell us what to do or believe.

It's ironic, isn't it, some think they are free minds, but when they speak they sound like fanatics. 

[mauGR1]

3 minutes ago, Woof999 said:

However, once you try and teach children your unproven beliefs, or run a government based on those beliefs, I start to have a problem. A big problem.

What would be your solution then, force your democratic beliefs down the people throats ?

How democratic...

If you like freedom for yourself and your people, what's wrong with other people choices ?

[Sparktrader]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

11 blokes

 

No women was great. Meant we didn't have to worry about what women thought and could be men, not wimps. It was only when a bunch of them came down after winter over that I realised how restrictive having them around is. They were even criticizing the guys for having Playboy magazines.

 

What are you on about? We actually worked most of the day, and had the bar and movies for after work. No tv ( which was excellent given how much rubbish is on tv- I don't watch it anymore ), but we had a movie every evening, and there was an excellent library. I read a lot there.

I went 10 pin bowling and played volleyball at the American base, where I also visited friends.

We had hobbies like photography and making things.

Pretty much life as it is lived back in home country.

I certainly had enough "entertainment" so I reckon you must think women are "entertainment".

What you do for sex? Yes I like women. I dont want to kiss a magazine.

[mauGR1]

3 minutes ago, Sparktrader said:

What you do for sex? Yes I like women. I dont want to kiss a magazine.

People have not the same sex drive. 

A lot has to do with diet, a lot has to do with repression, a lot with propaganda.

It's a very complex topic. 

Personally, i find that sex is overrated, and good looking women have this peculiar trait of driving me mad.????

 

 

[Sparktrader]

11 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

People have not the same sex drive. 

A lot has to do with diet, a lot has to do with repression, a lot with propaganda.

It's a very complex topic. 

Personally, i find that sex is overrated, and good looking women have this peculiar trait of driving me mad.????

 

 

I love to kiss a woman. Intercourse is overrated though.

Edited September 14, 2022 by Sparktrader

[mauGR1]

4 minutes ago, Sparktrader said:

I love to kiss a woman. Intercourse is overrated though.

Yep, and normally some kind of troubles are likely to start after that.

 

 

[Tippaporn]

4 hours ago, Woof999 said:

21 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

There's information available which you haven't heard that totally destroys both the theory of evolution, which is supported in part by another theory, natural selection, and that theory as well.

<snip>

There is? Where?

<snip>

I'll be presenting it soon.  I'll be more than happy to notify you when I do.

In the meanwhile, while I'm working on putting that together you can work on the following:

 

1) Where does consciousness fit into the theory of evolution?  What role does consciousness play?

2) Where does the free will of consciousness fit into the theory?

3) What is Natural Selection?  Define it in a functional way, a working model which shows the relationship with consciousness and it's own force?

4) If the existence of God cannot be proven has the existence of Natural Selection been proven?

5) If Natural Selection exists as a determinative force then explain what created this force and where it exists?  Can it be quantified in any way?  Can you list it's properties?

6) Provide a timeline of evolution from the origin of life to each and every new life form.  A rough timeline will suffice.

7) Given the trillions of life forms in existence today how long would it take to produce all of these lifeforms?

 

Like xylophone you can take your ball and bat and go home anytime you like if you feel these questions are too difficult, or impossible, to answer.  Or you can exit using the same reasoning that you've better things to do with your time than to waste it talking to a bunch of idiots.  Idiots only because they don't agree with you.

Keep in mind, too, that there is no universal consensus on the theory of evolution.  There are those scientists who have evidence that it does not exist.  Bonus question:  Are the scientist who have evidence to the contrary pseudo scientists?

Keep in mind as well the reason why you agree with those scientists who do  believe in evolution.  More bonus questions:  Is it only because that is what you want to believe?  Even if it were to be false?  Do you care about only what's true?  Would you change your mind if evolution is not the truth?

 

Edited September 14, 2022 by Tippaporn

[Woof999]

7 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

What would be your solution then, force your democratic beliefs down the people throats ?

Quite the opposite. Force nothing down their throats. It's interesting that I'm suggesting that unprovable beliefs should not be taught as fact and you're spinning that as me forcing my beliefs on others. Do you work in marketing?

[Tippaporn]

12 minutes ago, Woof999 said:

Quite the opposite. Force nothing down their throats. It's interesting that I'm suggesting that unprovable beliefs should not be taught as fact and you're spinning that as me forcing my beliefs on others. Do you work in marketing?

The irony.  The unprovable belief in the Theory of Evolution is taught as fact. 

[Woof999]

3 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

1) Where does consciousness fit into the theory of evolution?  What role does consciousness play?

I would suggest that self awareness, coupled with intelligence would allow you to make better choices. Better choices = more chance of reproducing and more chance of longevity.

 

 

3 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

2) Where does the free will of consciousness fit into the theory?

Quantum theory might be leading us down the path to believe that there is no such thing as free will. The jury's out on that one at the moment.

 

3 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

3) What is Natural Selection?  Define it in a functional way, a working model which shows the relationship with consciousness and it's own force?

I think your definition of a force is different than mine, but natural selection is very well defined. Even if you don't agree with it, I'm be pretty sure you know how it is defined.

 

3 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

4) If the existence of God cannot be proven has the existence of Natural Selection been proven?

The existence of natural selection can be shown to be factual regardless of the existence of your god.

 

3 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

5) If Natural Selection exists as a determinative force then explain what created this force and where it exists?  Can it be quantified in any way?  Can you list it's properties?

Probably more so than anyone can quantify or list the properties of their god. Again, why are you using the term force?

 

 

3 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

6) Provide a timeline of evolution from the origin of life to each and every new life form.  A rough timeline will suffice.

A rough timeline? Somewhat over 14 billion years, less a few hundred million years when things were still a little warm and sticky.

 

3 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

7) Given the trillions of life forms in existence today how long would it take to produce all of these lifeforms?

See the answer to question 6. Are you perhaps a young earth creationist whereby your timeline wavers from mine by many orders?

 

3 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

Like xylophone you can take your ball and bat and go home anytime you like if you feel these questions are too difficult, or impossible, to answer.

I didn't realise we were playing a game. There are many questions to which we / I / science does not have the answers and freely admit to that fact. I find that far more admirable than any claim of a god of the gaps. "You can't explain that so it must be god" didn't cut it for me after about the age of 10.

 

 

3 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

Or you can exit using the same reasoning that you've better things to do with your time than to waste it talking to a bunch of idiots.  Idiots only because they don't agree with you.

If that's the label you want to give yourself then I can run with it, but it was your label.

 

3 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

Are the scientist who have evidence to the contrary pseudo scientists?

I'll wait until I see this evidence.

 

3 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

Is it only because that is what you want to believe?  Even if it were to be false?  Do you care about only what's true?  Would you change your mind if evolution is not the truth?

That's the beauty of real knowledge. As you acquire more and learn new things you can realise, and admit, where you might have been wrong in the past. It's all part of learning and I have zero problem with it.

[Woof999]

1 minute ago, Tippaporn said:

The irony.  The unprovable belief in the Theory of Evolution is taught as fact. 

The weight of the evidence to support the theory of evolution is rather staggering. Interesting that you use the term "unprovable". Perhaps to try and put it on the same level as the belief in a god?

[mauGR1]

43 minutes ago, Woof999 said:

Quite the opposite. Force nothing down their throats. It's interesting that I'm suggesting that unprovable beliefs should not be taught as fact and you're spinning that as me forcing my beliefs on others. Do you work in marketing?

Didn't you say that you have "a big problem" with people  believing something you don't approve ?

I'm just trying to help ????

 

[Woof999]

Just now, mauGR1 said:

Didn't you say that you have "a big problem" with people  believing something you don't approve ?

You might want to re-read what I wrote after setting aside any preconception. You or anyone else can believe whatever you like. Once you start making legislation based on some of those beliefs or teaching that as fact as part of a national curriculum... the problem begins.

[mauGR1]

1 minute ago, Woof999 said:

You might want to re-read what I wrote after setting aside any preconception. You or anyone else can believe whatever you like. Once you start making legislation based on some of those beliefs or teaching that as fact as part of a national curriculum... the problem begins.

Ok, so apparently you are talking about Muslim nations  and you are American, right ?

Who would have thought.. ????

[Woof999]

2 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Ok, so apparently you are talking about Muslim nations  and you are American, right ?

Who would have thought.. ????

Wrong and wrong.

 

2 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Who would have thought.. ????

If only you had.

[mauGR1]

3 minutes ago, Woof999 said:

Wrong and wrong.

 

If only you had.

Ok, my fault. 

Sorry for your problems, i hope that with the help of God..

[Thunglom]

13 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Should that not be my own "psychology"?

No - the change from liberalism to reactionary is claimed to be biological.

It's been observed over the years - One of the Gustavs of Sweden is quote as saying "anyone under 25 who isn't a socialist hasn't got a heart, anyone over 25 who isn't a conservative has get a head.

[Sunmaster]

Do you know why the fingers of God and Adam don't touch each other on the famous Michaelangelo artwork on the roof of the Sistine Chapel of the Apostolic Palace in Vatican City?

In the work, God's finger is stretched to the max, but Adam's finger is with the last phalanges contracted. The meaning is to explain that God (Spirit, All-There-Is, etc...) is always there, but the decision is of man. If man wants to touch God he will need to stretch out his finger, but by not stretching out the finger, he can spend his whole life without seeking Him. "The final contraction phalanx of Adam's finger represents free will."
 

As long as you are content with the status quo of your present condition and don't seek this part of yourself, then it will stay hidden from you. But as soon as you make the conscious decision of wanting to know more, it will reveal itself in a million different ways. This is what TBL and others mean when they say they have overwhelming proof of the existence of {God}. It's not an objective, scientific proof but a subjective one. If you expect scientific proof to believe, it means you expect God to break free will. It doesn't work that way. It is you who have to stretch out that finger first. 
Once you realize that your trusted sources of knowledge are not able to provide the answers to the most intimate of your questions (Who am I? What is the purpose of my life?), you will start to seek new and previously untapped sources. That will be your first step, the first movement of that finger towards God. 
 

 

[AsianAtHeart]

On 9/12/2022 at 4:47 PM, Hummin said:

Why is it so important to so many  people to claim there is a god, and the controversy opposite there is no god!

This is a most excellent question.  I will try to explain it in a "nutshell" version in a moment, but first, your question reminded me of a true story that occurred many years ago in communist Russia.

 

Communist countries, as Russia was in those days, are tenaciously opposed to Christianity--as you may know.  Having lived in one, I have experienced this firsthand.  Your question could easily be applied to the communist regimes.  So, on to the story . . . .

 

A young schoolgirl in Russia heard nearly everyone saying "there is no God."  Her teachers emphasized it.  The textbooks did.  The government leaders and officials opposed the notion of a God.  All of those to whom children might have paid their respect seemed in agreement--"there is no God."

 

The vigorous manner in which this godless concept was promoted caused this intelligent young girl to question.  "Why do they all say there is no God?  If it were so, why would they need to say it?" she thought.

 

She pondered over the matter, but had no way of proving anything, one way or the other.  Yet something led her to question the truthfulness of what the leaders were all saying.

 

One cold, bleak, snowless winter day, she had an idea.  She was ready for a break from school--she didn't like school very much.  "God, if you exist, please show me.  Please send enough snow that we can have a snow day and not have to come to school," she prayed--not being certain if there was a God who would hear and answer her prayer or not.

 

As she slept that night, though it had not been in the forecast, snow came in abundance.  The next morning the buildings were half-buried in snow.  School was closed for several days because of it.  And one little girl in communist Russia knew the answer to the question "Does God exist?"

 

* * * *

 

Now, the reason so many are so interested in sharing the truth that there is a God who loves us and is interested in our well-being is that it is a truth which an enemy of God has been quite successful at nearly burying in lies.  It is God's enemy that wants to eradicate all knowledge of God from among God's creatures.  Sometimes the enemy works by spreading outright lies--such as to say that God does not exist.  Sometimes he just mixes some error with the truth, such as saying that, yes, God exists, but God has no interest in people--He just created us and left us alone.  Another common lie mixed with truth is that God will burn people forever in hell.  The enemy also induces people to blame all the bad things that the enemy himself has done on God, getting people to ask why bad things happen to good people.  Confusion, error, argument, lies, falsehoods, hatred, cynicism, and more are all tactics employed by God's enemy.

 

In some ways, God is at a disadvantage in this war in which the first casualty was the truth.  God cannot, and does not, lie.  Even if one knows that there are two sides, and that one side lies while the other tells only the truth, how does one know which side is which?  This is especially difficult because God's enemy can tell the truth when it suits him.

I'm reminded of a puzzle--a brain teaser, if you will--along these lines.  An online version of it can be found here:  https://suresolv.com/brain-teaser/liar-and-truth-teller-riddle-step-step-easy-solution

 

Quote

Story of the liar and truth-teller

 

Passing through many a land, a traveler came upon a deep jungle where the path split into two and went into the depths of the jungle.

 

He had heard from a wise man that such a forest lay ahead. The wise man told him, “One path will lead to the warmth of a friendly village, but the other will lead you to the den of hungry tigers and sure death.”

 

Now only he remembered the rest of what the wise old man told him, “When you are at the fork trying to figure out the safe path, two men will suddenly appear ready to help you. Beware, one of them will be a habitual liar—his answer to any question must always be a lie, but the other will just be the reverse—he always will tell you the truth.”

 

The wise man finished, “Don’t forget, you can ask only one question to any of the two to find the correct safe path. You won’t get a second chance. They will understand your question, know the safe path, and know the nature of answering of each other but will answer only with YES or NO.”

 

We are all essentially in that traveler's situation.  It is an excellent analogy to the spiritual war that is going on around all of us.  Some are on the side of the Truth-teller; some are on the side of the Liar.  Both sides are eager to speak to us and try to persuade us.  But it is our prerogative to make the decision for ourselves as to whom we will believe and follow.

 

Does God exist?  The very question itself was first framed by God's enemy who wishes to suggest to our minds that God may not exist.  And with a majority of people, his lies have achieved their intended effect; many have rejected God, even coming to the point of believing He does not exist.  But, however sincerely a lie may be believed, it is powerless to alter the truth.

[Sunmaster]

Lies...Enemies...war...fight....purgatory...hell...
Personally, I don't like that mindset/vocabulary.

The only "enemy" I can conceive of is my own limitation in the pursuit of truth.

Edited September 16, 2022 by Sunmaster

[thaibeachlovers]

On 9/14/2022 at 10:52 AM, Woof999 said:

Please do elaborate. What is this evidence?

If you can't see it, then that's down to you. I could try and explain, but it would take too much time and I think it would fall on deaf ears anyway.

To see the evidence of God all around us, one has to be open minded to the possibility that there is more to life the universe and everything than can be explained by our primitive science.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 9/14/2022 at 12:03 PM, Sparktrader said:

What you do for sex? Yes I like women. I dont want to kiss a magazine.

Is that a serious question?

 

I'm pretty sure I don't have to say what we did, but it is what guys do when they don't have access to a vagina, anywhere.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 9/14/2022 at 12:11 PM, mauGR1 said:

People have not the same sex drive. 

A lot has to do with diet, a lot has to do with repression, a lot with propaganda.

It's a very complex topic. 

Personally, i find that sex is overrated, and good looking women have this peculiar trait of driving me mad.????

 

 

I could talk about women and their ability to warp men's minds all day, but this isn't the thread to do it on, other than to say ( if I were to ascribe human failings to God, which I don't ) was God playing  a bad joke on men when he gave us sexual desire ALL the time? Most male animals ( other than human animals ) only get aroused when the female is "on heat", but we get turned on just by the sight of a pretty female.