Do you believe in God and why

[canuckamuck]

17 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

We have gone beyond the concept of 'spirit', and have found a state where the Spirit ceases to exist. It's called a 'Vacuum'. No life-form, that we know, can exist in a vacuum.

 

The word 'spirit' is derived from the Latin 'Spiritus' meaning 'Breath' and 'Spirare' meaning 'Breathe'. Even very ancient people would have known how vital is breathing for survival. However, air is invisible, although one can feel its presence when one breathes, or when one moves quickly, or when the wind blows. This invisible quality of the air we breathe would have been a very mysterious situation for ancient peoples.

 

An invisible substance that is vital for life, fits the general meaning of 'spirit' throughout the ages, wouldn't you think?

 

There are also many quotes from the Bible that support this general meaning of the word. Here's one.



"Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
 

So you are suggesting God needs to breathe physical elements? Based on the etymology of the word spirit? Did the originators of Latin also make the rules for the spiritual realm?

 

And the Genesis account, that you are using as evidence, does not say what the breathe of life is. It does not say air brought Adam to life. You can't bring matter to life with only air.

This is not any evidence of spirits requiring to breathe. I don't think anyone thinks spirits require breathing. The Genesis account also has God hovering over the formless universe. Why would he not need air and then suddenly need air a few paragraphs further along?

Edited November 7, 2019 by canuckamuck

[mauGR1]

2 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

It's a matter of perspectives. Have you had my experiences, you would have assuredly come to similar conclusions.

I think it's not worth to try to discuss spiritual things with (some) people who rely only on physical senses for their knowledge.

That belief is in fact a massive lock on the door of spiritual perception.

Possibly those people may change their minds when they are close to death, until then they will keep denying anything which is beyond the theories of official science.

In some case, the most stubborn of the believers of official science, have their dogmas so deeply rooted in their minds, that they fit the description of some medieval inquisition priests, who used to persecute doubters and deniers, yet they pretend to have an open mind, impervious to the possibility that some "science" of today might be regarded as superstition tomorrow.

[ivor bigun]

Until the Jews came along and invented this God that Christians and Muslims worship ,nobody had heard of him , wonder why?

[Sunmaster]

23 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

I think it's not worth to try to discuss spiritual things with (some) people who rely only on physical senses for their knowledge.

That belief is in fact a massive lock on the door of spiritual perception.

Possibly those people may change their minds when they are close to death, until then they will keep denying anything which is beyond the theories of official science.

In some case, the most stubborn of the believers of official science, have their dogmas so deeply rooted in their minds, that they fit the description of some medieval inquisition priests, who used to persecute doubters and deniers, yet they pretend to have an open mind, impervious to the possibility that some "science" of today might be regarded as superstition tomorrow.

Maybe, but this thread would be a lot less entertaining if we all agreed on the subject. I understand where he's coming from, because I've been there myself. He's questioning the world around him and that's a good start. ????

 

On my side, I've decided to put more time and energy into practice and for that reason I'm going to check out Transcendental Meditation. Got a meeting in Bkk set up on the 16th. I'm curious to see what that is all about. Been reading a lot of good things and have a close friend doing it for a decade now.

[mauGR1]

57 minutes ago, ivor bigun said:

Until the Jews came along and invented this God that Christians and Muslims worship ,nobody had heard of him , wonder why?

I appreciate your longevity, how was the beer 6000 years ago ?

[mauGR1]

53 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

Maybe, but this thread would be a lot less entertaining if we all agreed on the subject. I understand where he's coming from, because I've been there myself. He's questioning the world around him and that's a good start.

Fair enough, if we are here for learning, this thread and the constant presence of certain subjects, is teaching me not to let my peace of mind be affected by the proudly displayed ignorance of other people.

... And a few other things ????

[ravip]

4 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

I think it's not worth to try to discuss spiritual things with (some) people who rely only on physical senses for their knowledge.

That belief is in fact a massive lock on the door of spiritual perception.

Possibly those people may change their minds when they are close to death, until then they will keep denying anything which is beyond the theories of official science.

In some case, the most stubborn of the believers of official science, have their dogmas so deeply rooted in their minds, that they fit the description of some medieval inquisition priests, who used to persecute doubters and deniers, yet they pretend to have an open mind, impervious to the possibility that some "science" of today might be regarded as superstition tomorrow.

Possibly those people may change their minds when they are close to death, until then they will keep denying anything which is beyond the theories of official science.

 

Why is this so? The younger dudes dont believe in religion, but when they age and are near the end of their journey they embrace some belief. Also, people who are faced with many serious issues do the same.

Could this be a reason that they are stretching out in desperation for the last straw?

If there is a credible God, this world should be perfect and we all should be happy, isn't it?

 

[mauGR1]

8 minutes ago, ravip said:

If there is a credible God, this world should be perfect and we all should be happy, isn't it?

 

I try to answer to the best of my little knowledge, that's a question which has been asked since aeons.

Happiness and sadness are 2 sides of the same coin.

I think there are countless states of existence, if we are here, in a world of joy and pain, it's because we have to evolve experimenting joy and pain.

Eventually joy and pain may become messengers of knowledge, or spiritual doors of perception of the spiritual world, as much as the physical senses make you able to perceive the physical reality.

If you think that you deserve a better world, you have to work for it, and one way or another, you will get there.

[ravip]

21 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

I try to answer to the best of my little knowledge, that's a question which has been asked since aeons.

Happiness and sadness are 2 sides of the same coin.

I think there are countless states of existence, if we are here, in a world of joy and pain, it's because we have to evolve experimenting joy and pain.

Eventually joy and pain may become messengers of knowledge, or spiritual doors of perception of the spiritual world, as much as the physical senses make you able to perceive the physical reality.

If you think that you deserve a better world, you have to work for it, and one way or another, you will get there.

Thank you.

These things are so complicated, better live without a God...IMHO ????

[VincentRJ]

8 hours ago, canuckamuck said:

So you are suggesting God needs to breathe physical elements?

Crikey! I would never be so arrogant and proud, or deluded, to claim that I know anything at all about the 'Creator of the Entire Universe'.

 

God exists as a human construct, in the human mind, as described in various religious scriptures. If there is in reality some sort of 'all-powerful intelligent designer', it seems utterly ludicrous that pre-scientific, ancient people, could have had an even remotely accurate understanding of such a Creator.

 

The concept of a 'spirit' suggests there is something which is invisible, yet is essential for life. The air we breathe fits that description in accordance with the etymological meaning of the word.

 

The reason why I'm taking the trouble to discuss this issue in this thread, is because I've always had an interest in this aspect of human behaviour which reveals such a strong need for the emotional certainty that religion provides, and the resulting, extreme gullibility of so many people who unquestioningly accept what they've been brought up to believe.

[Sunmaster]

7 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

Crikey! I would never be so arrogant and proud, or deluded, to claim that I know anything at all about the 'Creator of the Entire Universe'.

 

God exists as a human construct, in the human mind, as described in various religious scriptures. If there is in reality some sort of 'all-powerful intelligent designer', it seems utterly ludicrous that pre-scientific, ancient people, could have had an even remotely accurate understanding of such a Creator.

 

The concept of a 'spirit' suggests there is something which is invisible, yet is essential for life. The air we breathe fits that description in accordance with the etymological meaning of the word.

 

The reason why I'm taking the trouble to discuss this issue in this thread, is because I've always had an interest in this aspect of human behaviour which reveals such a strong need for the emotional certainty that religion provides, and the resulting, extreme gullibility of so many people who unquestioningly accept what they've been brought up to believe.

So, correct me if I'm wrong, you're saying that God (only?) exists as a human construct, and that religion is only there to appease weak minded people in need of a safety blanket?

[VincentRJ]

2 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

So, correct me if I'm wrong, you're saying that God (only?) exists as a human construct, and that religion is only there to appease weak minded people in need of a safety blanket?

You've got it. Well done! ????

 

However, there's probably still some confusion in your statement. We have to distinguish between the concept of some sort of 'intelligent, creator force' which we can only speculate about, and the God as described in the Bible, who created man in his own image.

 

The Biblical and other scriptural stories, which describe God and some of his characteristics as though certain humans have had direct contact with him, are human constructs of the imagination.

 

A hypothesis or idea that there might be some sort of intelligent creator, which we know nothing about, involved in the creation of life on our planet, is similar to the idea expressed thousands of years ago, in Greece and India, that all matter is composed of fundamentally indivisible particles called atoms.

 

Albert Einstein believed in this concept of an Intelligent Creator, and that his study of Physics revealed some of the mechanisms which the Intelligent Creator used. However, Einstein did not believe in the fairy tales of the Bible or that humans could interact with such a God through prayers, or that such a God would intervene in human affairs.

[mauGR1]

4 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

The reason why I'm taking the trouble to discuss this issue in this thread, is because I've always had an interest in this aspect of human behaviour which reveals such a strong need for the emotional certainty that religion provides, and the resulting, extreme gullibility of so many people who unquestioningly accept what they've been brought up to believe.

The reason why I'm taking the trouble to discuss this issue in this thread, is because I've always had an interest in this aspect of human behaviour which reveals such a strong need for the emotional certainty that science provides, and the resulting, extreme gullibility of so many people who unquestioningly accept what they've been brought up to believe.

 

I have just changed one word of your statement, it will take you about 5 seconds to find out which one.

I know now you don't believe it's true, but there are other ways to experience reality apart from the 5 physical senses, and brilliant as you seem to be, i have no doubt that eventually you will get there.????

[Mrfox]

Not the capital "God"  or any of these silly corrupt human's version of it.

[Sunmaster]

16 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

You've got it. Well done! ????

 

However, there's probably still some confusion in your statement. We have to distinguish between the concept of some sort of 'intelligent, creator force' which we can only speculate about, and the God as described in the Bible, who created man in his own image.

 

The Biblical and other scriptural stories, which describe God and some of his characteristics as though certain humans have had direct contact with him, are human constructs of the imagination.

 

A hypothesis or idea that there might be some sort of intelligent creator, which we know nothing about, involved in the creation of life on our planet, is similar to the idea expressed thousands of years ago, in Greece and India, that all matter is composed of fundamentally indivisible particles called atoms.

 

Albert Einstein believed in this concept of an Intelligent Creator, and that his study of Physics revealed some of the mechanisms which the Intelligent Creator used. However, Einstein did not believe in the fairy tales of the Bible or that humans could interact with such a God through prayers, or that such a God would intervene in human affairs.

Yes, that distinction is well clear to me and I've been actively trying to get it across from page 54 to 165 (or something like that) of this thread, because people where constantly throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Maybe you missed those pages...
Religion is not the same as Spirituality.
The first is an organized institution based on a dogma and claims to be a necessary intermediary between God and men. The second focuses on personal experience, highlighting the fact that every single one of us has a direct connection to the divine, which is our duty to explore.

 

"A hypothesis or idea that there might be some sort of intelligent creator, which we know nothing about,..."
That's simply not true. While I agree that we can't fully comprehend Spirit, humanity has spent 1000s of years trying to map out the inner landscapes of consciousness and the paths that ultimately lead to become one with it. 
The fact that one might believe these findings or not has no relevance whatsoever on their efficacy. 

 

Edited November 7, 2019 by Sunmaster

[canuckamuck]

11 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

 

The Biblical and other scriptural stories, which describe God and some of his characteristics as though certain humans have had direct contact with him, are human constructs of the imagination.

 

 

Link please.

[VincentRJ]

12 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

The reason why I'm taking the trouble to discuss this issue in this thread, is because I've always had an interest in this aspect of human behaviour which reveals such a strong need for the emotional certainty that science provides, and the resulting, extreme gullibility of so many people who unquestioningly accept what they've been brought up to believe.

 

I have just changed one word of your statement, it will take you about 5 seconds to find out which one.

 

Thanks for confirming my point. Science is often treated as a religion by those who have little understanding of the 'methodology of science' which requires repeated experimentation under controlled conditions, and realistic attempts at falsification before any degree of certainty can be achieved.

 

An example of the 'religion of science' is the gullible acceptance by so many people that man's CO2 emissions are the main cause, or driver, of the current warm period, because the media reports that 97% of all scientists agree that the science is settled.

 

I know now you don't believe it's true, but there are other ways to experience reality apart from the 5 physical senses, and brilliant as you seem to be, i have no doubt that eventually you will get there.????

 

Please tell us what these other ways are. I have an open mind. I presume you are referring to 'Extrasensory Perception'. Right?

 

I'm not aware of any reliable and reproducible scientific tests which have demonstrated the existence of a sixth sense, although it's true that the mind (or brain) can create all sorts of emotional and fanciful states, such as dreams when sleeping, or states of anxiety when just thinking about something which is alarming, or total calm or joy when quietly and successfully freeing the mind of all thoughts when meditating.

[mauGR1]

14 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

Thanks for confirming my point. Science is often treated as a religion by those who have little understanding of the 'methodology of science' which requires repeated experimentation under controlled conditions, and realistic attempts at falsification before any degree of certainty can be achieved.

 

An example of the 'religion of science' is the gullible acceptance by so many people that man's CO2 emissions are the main cause, or driver, of the current warm period, because the media reports that 97% of all scientists agree that the science is settled.

 

 

 

 

Please tell us what these other ways are. I have an open mind. I presume you are referring to 'Extrasensory Perception'. Right?

 

I'm not aware of any reliable and reproducible scientific tests which have demonstrated the existence of a sixth sense, although it's true that the mind (or brain) can create all sorts of emotional and fanciful states, such as dreams when sleeping, or states of anxiety when just thinking about something which is alarming, or total calm or joy when quietly and successfully freeing the mind of all thoughts when meditating.

Sorry, but your faith in "'methodology of science' which requires repeated experimentation under controlled conditions, and realistic attempts at falsification before any degree of certainty can be achieved." makes it difficult for you to understand my point.

 The fact that you cannot see the difference between mind and brain, and your dismissive attitude which is clear in your description of the animic activities... "although it's true that the mind (or brain) can create all sorts of emotional and fanciful states, such as dreams when sleeping, or states of anxiety"... Makes our conversation even more difficult.

A few posts above, i said quite clearly how one can use the "dualistic judgement" as an added tool of knowledge, but it went over your head.

Of course i fully appreciate the scientific method, but you seem to limit your interest in the physical world, which is just a small part of "reality"... So it seems to me that's you who regards "official science" as a religion.

 

As an added note, our vocabulary, which is coined to describe the physical world, makes it somehow difficult to find the right words to describe what is beyond the reach of the physical senses.

That's why Jesus, who, apart from the official religion, i regard as a great spiritual master, was teaching with an abundant use of metaphors and parables.

Pls forgive my long post and my bad English ????

 

[thaibeachlovers]

20 hours ago, ravip said:

If there is a credible God, this world should be perfect and we all should be happy, isn't it?

I answered that a few hundred posts ago. Happy reading!

[thaibeachlovers]

13 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

However, Einstein did not believe in the fairy tales of the Bible or that humans could interact with such a God through prayers, or that such a God would intervene in human affairs.

While I don't presume to be as clever as Einstein, I've posted many times as to that exact same belief.

It is, after all, not rocket science

[thaibeachlovers]

3 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

"A hypothesis or idea that there might be some sort of intelligent creator, which we know nothing about,..."
That's simply not true. While I agree that we can't fully comprehend Spirit, humanity has spent 1000s of years trying to map out the inner landscapes of consciousness and the paths that ultimately lead to become one with it. 
The fact that one might believe these findings or not has no relevance whatsoever on their efficacy. 

Humans know nothing, Jon Snow.

We humans trying to define the creator is about as clever as a flea trying to understand human biology.

We may get there in about a billion years when we have evolved a  brain capable of understanding such things.

Right now we haven't even passed the most basic level of intelligence.

A species that is as violent and cruel and destructive as humanity has not even begun to comprehend spirit. It's like a 3 year old looking at a cloud- they can see the result, but have no comprehension as to how the cloud was created. We can see the result of spirit, but can't even begin to understand how spirit works.

[thaibeachlovers]

27 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

That's why Jesus, who, apart from the official religion, i regard as a great spiritual master, was teaching with an abundant use of metaphors and parables.

Had Jesus told everyone that God was unknowable, didn't give a monkey's about individuals, and was not going to intervene to make people's <deleted> lives better, he would not have gained many disciples and Christianity would not have begun.

[mauGR1]

3 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Had Jesus told everyone that God was unknowable, didn't give a monkey's about individuals, and was not going to intervene to make people's <deleted> lives better, he would not have gained many disciples and Christianity would not have begun.

Well, i am studying the word of Jesus since i was a child. I am lucky that the priests i met in my youth were nice persons. One of them died young in the sea, another one fell in love and left priesthood to get married..

I can tell easily if you know more and better than me about Jesus, and i can tell you that he referred to "god" as "father" and when he said "in the sky" he meant "out of reach".

Bigotry doesn't belong to Jesus, but it belongs to the small minds.

[Sunmaster]

33 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Humans know nothing, Jon Snow.

We humans trying to define the creator is about as clever as a flea trying to understand human biology.

We may get there in about a billion years when we have evolved a  brain capable of understanding such things.

Right now we haven't even passed the most basic level of intelligence.

A species that is as violent and cruel and destructive as humanity has not even begun to comprehend spirit. It's like a 3 year old looking at a cloud- they can see the result, but have no comprehension as to how the cloud was created. We can see the result of spirit, but can't even begin to understand how spirit works.

Of course you're right, if you're talking about society as a whole.

Society though, is made up of individuals and some of those individuals have experienced unity with the divine. Many of those have passed on their experiences in books or taught others in guru-disciple relationships. There are such individuals today just like they existed 2000 or 5000 years ago.

Yes, the majority of humanity still can't see past its nose, is violent towards others and the planet. On the other hand, there is a small, but growing group of people actively seeking that unity. They are spearheading a new paradigm and are catalysts for the change we so desperately need.

There is plenty of knowledge out there about Spirit, handed down by people more advanced than the rest of us, you just need to look for it.

[mauGR1]

1 hour ago, Sunmaster said:

Of course you're right, if you're talking about society as a whole.

Society though, is made up of individuals and some of those individuals have experienced unity with the divine. Many of those have passed on their experiences in books or taught others in guru-disciple relationships. There are such individuals today just like they existed 2000 or 5000 years ago.

Yes, the majority of humanity still can't see past its nose, is violent towards others and the planet. On the other hand, there is a small, but growing group of people actively seeking that unity. They are spearheading a new paradigm and are catalysts for the change we so desperately need.

There is plenty of knowledge out there about Spirit, handed down by people more advanced than the rest of us, you just need to look for it.

Well said.

We can sit in discomfort complaining about the state of humankind, or we can wake up and grab any of the keys which can open the door to a higher state of consciousness.

Essentially, we go back to the "mystery of faith" which doesn't mean shutting the brain, it means to believe that something is possible.

[Sunmaster]

1 hour ago, Sunmaster said:

Of course you're right, if you're talking about society as a whole.

Society though, is made up of individuals and some of those individuals have experienced unity with the divine. Many of those have passed on their experiences in books or taught others in guru-disciple relationships. There are such individuals today just like they existed 2000 or 5000 years ago.

Yes, the majority of humanity still can't see past its nose, is violent towards others and the planet. On the other hand, there is a small, but growing group of people actively seeking that unity. They are spearheading a new paradigm and are catalysts for the change we so desperately need.

There is plenty of knowledge out there about Spirit, handed down by people more advanced than the rest of us, you just need to look for it.

This wasn't worded well...
What I meant to say is that the vast majority of people still don't know who they truly are and thus will tend to act selfishly, believing that they are separate from others and the world around them. This sense of separation then causes all sorts of imbalances and in more extreme cases can lead to violence.
I believe in the fundamental goodness of people but also realize that the ignorance of one's true being can lead to much suffering.

Edited November 8, 2019 by Sunmaster

[thaibeachlovers]

4 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

Well, i am studying the word of Jesus since i was a child. I am lucky that the priests i met in my youth were nice persons. One of them died young in the sea, another one fell in love and left priesthood to get married..

I can tell easily if you know more and better than me about Jesus, and i can tell you that he referred to "god" as "father" and when he said "in the sky" he meant "out of reach".

Bigotry doesn't belong to Jesus, but it belongs to the small minds.

Jesus was a prophet, and apparently worked miracles. He was killed by the Romans because he PO the establishment. That's all we really know about him.

How could I possibly believe he was the actual "son of god" when I don't believe that God gives a monkeys about humans?

If that's bigotry, call me bigot.

Have a nice day.

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

This wasn't worded well...
What I meant to say is that the vast majority of people still don't know who they truly are and thus will tend to act selfishly, believing that they are separate from others and the world around them. This sense of separation then causes all sorts of imbalances and in more extreme cases can lead to violence.
I believe in the fundamental goodness of people but also realize that the ignorance of one's true being can lead to much suffering.

I agree that the vast majority of people live and die without experiencing the spirit.

I disagree that people are fundamentally good. I believe that people are a blank canvas when they are born, and become what their environment makes of them.

Good and evil are two sides of the same coin, and everyone has both in them. Most will never be able to really be one or the other, but will muddle along.

The people that have harmed me the most were usually the ones that I least expected to be bad.

Really evil, Stalin, Mao, Hitler etc.

Really good, the Buddha, Jesus, the Dali Llama etc.

[mauGR1]

4 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Jesus was a prophet, and apparently worked miracles. He was killed by the Romans because he PO the establishment. That's all we really know about him.

How could I possibly believe he was the actual "son of god" when I don't believe that God gives a monkeys about humans?

If that's bigotry, call me bigot.

Have a nice day.

Now i realise that my post was not well worded, i never meant to say that you are a bigot, i was referring rather in general to all the hypocrites who have done bad things in the name of Jesus, and put a indelible stain on Christianity.

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

Well said.

We can sit in discomfort complaining about the state of humankind, or we can wake up and grab any of the keys which can open the door to a higher state of consciousness.

Essentially, we go back to the "mystery of faith" which doesn't mean shutting the brain, it means to believe that something is possible.

IMO, few will ever be "spiritual leaders" of humanity. Most of us just get along best we can. Complaining is sometimes as good as it gets.

I don't know anyone in my whole life that has sought enlightenment.

I was quite religious in my youth, and had I been encouraged I think I might have ended up in holy orders. However, the chaplain banished me from my attempt to become a part of the Church. I guess he never took to heart the teaching of the Christ about "suffering the little children", but certainly I left and never went back. I was lost to the Church on that very day.