If HE did create the Universe, let it evolve itself and washed HIS hands off,  I feel that's a very irresponsible action.

Look at the state we are in. Our (humans) intellect is not only destroying ourselves, but also the other fauna and flora.

Does any other 'creation of God',  create such havoc? 

Ample proof was seen during the extended lock down periods- nature was recovering rapidly. 

Why doesn't a dog or a cat (or any other animal or plant) contribute to the destruction of this planet?

Where did the creator flaw? Is everything out of HIS control? 

Basically, I feel today's worst politicians are very similar. 

They aren't responsible for the negative outcomes of their deeds. 

Edited May 24, 20215 yr by ravip

28 minutes ago, ravip said:

If HE did create the Universe, let it evolve itself and washed HIS hands off,  I feel that's a very irresponsible action.

Look at the state we are in. Our (humans) intellect is not only destroying ourselves, but also the other fauna and flora.

Does any other 'creation of God',  create such havoc? 

Ample proof was seen during the extended lock down periods- nature was recovering rapidly. 

Why doesn't a dog or a cat (or any other animal or plant) contribute to the destruction of this planet?

Where did the creator flaw? Is everything out of HIS control? 

Basically, I feel today's worst politicians are very similar. 

They aren't responsible for the negative outcomes of their deeds. 

If you don't believe,  why blame something which, according to you doesn't exist?

.. because,  if you believe,  I can assure you,  the answers will come,  almost automatically. 

Btw, this kind of post has been recurring since the beginning of the thread,  and been answered many times,  apparently in vain. 

5 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Humans have free will, and it would be a bit pointless if God stepped in everytime someone did something that hurt another to stop it.

 

I'm not really into theology. But, why would a perfect being, omnipotent and "good" concoct such a system where people have free will to destroy themselves and others?

 

I've heard the rebuttals before - which usually go like this: "It is not for us mortals to understand our god" which I find objectionable

20 minutes ago, Fex Bluse said:

 

I'm not really into theology. But, why would a perfect being, omnipotent and "good" concoct such a system where people have free will to destroy themselves and others?

 

I've heard the rebuttals before - which usually go like this: "It is not for us mortals to understand our god" which I find objectionable

Well, it is what it is, whether you find it objectionable or not.

If you don't like a reality,  perhaps you can try to make it better,  or otherwise accept it. 

Personally, I've been told many times that to see a glass half-full instead of half-empty,  helps with the mood. 

1 hour ago, mauGR1 said:

If you don't believe,  why blame something which, according to you doesn't exist?

.. because,  if you believe,  I can assure you,  the answers will come,  almost automatically. 

Btw, this kind of post has been recurring since the beginning of the thread,  and been answered many times,  apparently in vain. 

Sorry to bore you,  but the recurrence of this type of posts are proof, that people are searching for the truth.

 

To be very honest,  I think one needs real facts to believe in anything. 

Or,  should we have blind faith? 

 

E.g. lucky numbers for lottery,  sacrifices for posterity, witchcraft  etc.

expecting science to absolutely disprove god , a human fantasy, is childish and uneducated.....

should science disprove that Narnia exists ? obviously not.........

 

 

 

1 hour ago, ravip said:

Sorry to bore you,  but the recurrence of this type of posts are proof, that people are searching for the truth.

 

To be very honest,  I think one needs real facts to believe in anything. 

Or,  should we have blind faith? 

 

E.g. lucky numbers for lottery,  sacrifices for posterity, witchcraft  etc.

Uhm, yes, I understand, and searching for the truth of course deserves the utmost respect. 

As I said a few times,  I have more respect for a sincere atheist than a fake believer !

Speaking strictly for myself,  more than blind faith, an open mind is required. 

Do you think we are more likely to be the product of an intelligent design, or the product of chaos ?

 

5 hours ago, WhiteBuffaloATM said:

science does not “merge” with pseudo-science

” spitituality”: chemical reactions in brain as science......

all the science (so far) overwhelmingly indicates No God

so odds are what ten million to one that “ God” exists ?

” choose not to believe” just doesnt cut it..... except for fanatics, sheep, kids.....

 

You keep saying "overwhelming proof of No God". Please provide links to your sources or stop with this nonsense.

 

10 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

You keep saying "overwhelming proof of No God". Please provide links to your sources or stop with this nonsense.

 

I have a hunch that we're going to wait quite a while for the link ????

1 hour ago, ravip said:

 

To be very honest,  I think one needs real facts to believe in anything. 

Or,  should we have blind faith? 

You're absolutely right!
Don't wait for anyone to tell you what is what. What if there is something like a loving Higher Power and you've wasted your time waiting for science to confirm it for you. Find out by yourself!
Find the connection to that part of yourself which is eternal. 
Find REAL FACTS by using the tested methods with proven efficacy and with the newly found evidence, shape a new, more inclusive worldview. 
Don't just offer your precious brain cells to blind faith, be it in religion or science! 
It's all up to you!
 

my sources : every proper scientific finding ever made, combined with rationalty / logic/ reason,

has proven or very strongly indicated No God....thats over the last 500 years of enlightenment..

hardly nonsense...... you haven’t offered one fact against my case...... plenty of general anti - science unsubstantiated bs though......

 

6 minutes ago, WhiteBuffaloATM said:

my sources : every proper scientific finding ever made, combined with rationalty / logic/ reason,

has proven or very strongly indicated No God....thats over the last 500 years of enlightenment..

hardly nonsense...... you haven’t offered one fact against my case...... plenty of general anti - science unsubstantiated bs though......

 

So, no links then....just a lot of blabla No God blabla
Provide scientific proof of No God. Should be easy for you, since "every scientific finding ever made" (LOL) has come to that conclusion 5555

Edited May 24, 20215 yr by Sunmaster

5 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

While probably this explanation can be perfected,  i am in complete agreement that some "bad" human traits are closely linked to the survival instinct. 

Without the brute force of our cavemen ancestors,  most probably we would not be here discussing philosophical issues. 

There were no PC cavemen, considering the dangers that lay outside. Took guts to kill a sabre tooth tiger armed only with a sharp stick and some rocks.

Post removed and responses to it.

4 hours ago, ravip said:

If HE did create the Universe, let it evolve itself and washed HIS hands off,  I feel that's a very irresponsible action.

first of all, we are only aware of what is happening on one tiny part of the universe ie this planet is not the entire universe.

 

second of all, to answer your main point ... maybe god is "testing you." 

 

 

4 hours ago, Fex Bluse said:

 

I'm not really into theology. But, why would a perfect being, omnipotent and "good" concoct such a system where people have free will to destroy themselves and others?

 

I've heard the rebuttals before - which usually go like this: "It is not for us mortals to understand our god" which I find objectionable

Can you understand how the universe was infused with life? Science can't create life. Science can't even cure cancer. If you can understand that, then you probably can understand God. I can't, so I have to act in faith, which is fine by me.

4 hours ago, Fex Bluse said:

 

I'm not really into theology. But, why would a perfect being, omnipotent and "good" concoct such a system where people have free will to destroy themselves and others?

 

I've heard the rebuttals before - which usually go like this: "It is not for us mortals to understand our god" which I find objectionable

You really think you can ascribe human qualities to God? Where did you get that idea from?

Who is saying that God is "good" anyway. IMO God is neutral, and created the viruses that kills us as equal parts of life on planet earth with humans. We all have our part to play in the circle of life. Suffering and death are as much part of life as joy and happiness- Ying and Yang etc.

somebody mentioned flat earth and pseudo-science.

most people don't understand the big scientists like stephen hawking .... maybe because a lot of what they're spewing is nonsense. 

 

i was into flat earth stuff a few years ago, then i gave up on it because i got distracted. but it's FUN to look into this stuff. 

 

check out suspicious flight paths ... 

 

Edited May 24, 20215 yr by covidiot

4 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

You really think you can ascribe human qualities to God? Where did you get that idea from?

Who is saying that God is "good" anyway. IMO God is neutral, and created the viruses that kills us as equal parts of life on planet earth with humans. We all have our part to play in the circle of life. Suffering and death are as much part of life as joy and happiness- Ying and Yang etc.

That's an interesting thought.

Although I would not deny a god human qualities,  on the contrary,  s/he has most likely super-human qualities, I fondly agree with the rest of your post, as in fact one doesn't know what is joy without experiencing the pain etc.

9 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

God is unknowable to humans, and that applies even to the exceptionally intelligent.

 

So, the word 'God' is a synonym for the word 'unknowable'. Right? ????

 

I've never seen this definition in a dictionary. If you believe in God, why not just say you believe there are many unknowables? The term 'God', in all the literature, has clear and obvious associations with the most exceptional and extraordinary power. 

 

If God is unknowable, then surely one can't logically express anything about it, or even give it a name other than 'unknowable'.

My short answer is YES!

 

The following is Part of my long answer to why I believe in God. I thought long and hard how to respond to this question because there is no manner of words that could change your hearts and minds about the existence of God. I'm speaking to you that don't believe. The true believers of the world don't need to be convinced of the existence of God. And only the Holy Spirit can transform the non-believer's heart. I accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and savior in 1985 does that make me perfect, absolutely not just forgiven. 

 

I cannot take credit for the following words but I'm going to pass them along so that the world may know.

 

Jesus real or only Virtual. By Malcolm Muggeridge.

 

"Literally billions of words, oceans of paint, acres of canvas, mountains of Stone and marble, countless volumes of music and miles of film have been expended on this one man.....The Man Jesus and his story is inexhaustible, and continues to attract the minds and imaginations of the pious and the not So pious, believers and non-believers alike-mine among them.

Well empires Kings and rulers wise and corrupt have come and gone Jesus and his radical and strange doctrine of ethics of Love forgiveness and Resurrection beyond death have survived the movers and the Shakers scoffers and mockers for over 2,000 years."

 

If we are going to have a conversation about God Let's be honest, I submit to you that I believe most people refuse to believe in God because they enjoy their sinful life. I'm not judging you, your life is between you and God not you and me. And I'm also not going to argue with you because I'll go back to what I said at the beginning, no manner of words are going to change your mind. Only the power of the Holy Spirit can do that that is part of the reason why true believers know the truth because we know where we came from and what we were doing prior to God rolling up his sleeve, reaching down into the pit and pulling us up and setting our feet on a rock. 

God promises forgiveness for our repentance but he doesn't promise tomorrow for our procrastination.

My prayer for you the non-believer is that you keep seeking before your air gets turned off because it will be too late then.

????????????????✝️

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, iLuvThai said:

My short answer is YES!

 

The following is Part of my long answer to why I believe in God. I thought long and hard how to respond to this question because there is no manner of words that could change your hearts and minds about the existence of God. I'm speaking to you that don't believe. The true believers of the world don't need to be convinced of the existence of God. And only the Holy Spirit can transform the non-believer's heart. I accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and savior in 1985 does that make me perfect, absolutely not just forgiven. 

 

I cannot take credit for the following words but I'm going to pass them along so that the world may know.

 

Jesus real or only Virtual. By Malcolm Muggeridge.

 

"Literally billions of words, oceans of paint, acres of canvas, mountains of Stone and marble, countless volumes of music and miles of film have been expended on this one man.....The Man Jesus and his story is inexhaustible, and continues to attract the minds and imaginations of the pious and the not So pious, believers and non-believers alike-mine among them.

Well empires Kings and rulers wise and corrupt have come and gone Jesus and his radical and strange doctrine of ethics of Love forgiveness and Resurrection beyond death have survived the movers and the Shakers scoffers and mockers for over 2,000 years."

 

If we are going to have a conversation about God Let's be honest, I submit to you that I believe most people refuse to believe in God because they enjoy their sinful life. I'm not judging you, your life is between you and God not you and me. And I'm also not going to argue with you because I'll go back to what I said at the beginning, no manner of words are going to change your mind. Only the power of the Holy Spirit can do that that is part of the reason why true believers know the truth because we know where we came from and what we were doing prior to God rolling up his sleeve, reaching down into the pit and pulling us up and setting our feet on a rock. 

God promises forgiveness for our repentance but he doesn't promise tomorrow for our procrastination.

My prayer for you the non-believer is that you keep seeking before your air gets turned off because it will be too late then.

????????????????✝️

 

 

 

I would have given you a "like "except for the last paragraph. 

While i believe that God is eternal,  I believe the damnation is not.

Remember the parable of the lost sheep,  or the prodigal son.

1 minute ago, mauGR1 said:

I would have given you a "like "except for the last paragraph. 

While i believe that God is eternal,  I believe the damnation is not.

Remember the parable of the lost sheep,  or the prodigal son.

So because you don't believe in damnation, it's not real? What about Lazarus and the rich ruler? Again I'm not going to argue with you or anybody how you live what you believe is between you and God I would just ask you not to go creating a God in your own image to suit you.

Be well.

1 hour ago, iLuvThai said:

So because you don't believe in damnation, it's not real? What about Lazarus and the rich ruler? Again I'm not going to argue with you or anybody how you live what you believe is between you and God I would just ask you not to go creating a God in your own image to suit you.

Be well.

So, if you don't want to discuss, why you're posting here ?

..and you didn't even read my post correctly, well, goodbye ????

1 hour ago, iLuvThai said:

I submit to you that I believe most people refuse to believe in God because they enjoy their sinful life.

I respectfully disagree. Most people don't believe in God, because they are trained to see the world through a certain lens. It doesn't mean they enjoy a sinful life (as defined by religion) . In fact, I think they are just trying to make sense of this life like you and me, to the best of their abilities and using the tools they regard being appropriate to do the job. Whether or not those tools are efficient and bring you closer to the truth is another issue entirely. 

I would go as far as saying that following the writings of a book (religious or else) without personal verification and validation is just as sinful. 
Sin, as I see it, is not living up to ones full potential. Being given the great gifts of Self-enquiry and refusing to use them....that's not just sinful, but a great waste.

2 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

You're absolutely right!
Don't wait for anyone to tell you what is what. What if there is something like a loving Higher Power and you've wasted your time waiting for science to confirm it for you. Find out by yourself!
Find the connection to that part of yourself which is eternal. 
Find REAL FACTS by using the tested methods with proven efficacy and with the newly found evidence, shape a new, more inclusive worldview. 
Don't just offer your precious brain cells to blind faith, be it in religion or science! 
It's all up to you!
 

Would the belief in God make a human a better being?

 

Someone who can be distinctly recognised apart from a non believer? 

 

Would it really help this world to be a better place for us humans to live in?

 

For example...  Jesus' teaching is about diffusing conflict rather than allowing conflicts to escalate. He advocates we stop the cycle through a willingness to suffer wrong.

 

Matthew 5:39 NIV...
But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.

Just now, ravip said:

Would the belief in God make a human a better being?

 

Someone who can be distinctly recognised apart from a non believer? 

 

Would it really help this world to be a better place for us humans to live in?

 

For example...  Jesus' teaching is about diffusing conflict rather than allowing conflicts to escalate. He advocates we stop the cycle through a willingness to suffer wrong.

 

Matthew 5:39 NIV...
But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.

Good question.

 

I think, up to a certain point yes. For some people it may be necessary to have a set of rules or guidelines to follow, to make them better citizens of a society. Hence the 10 commandments and such. But these then are externally imposed rules, either through a promise of a future reward or threat of future punishment.

 

By simply believing, you'll only reap part of the benefit though. You understand that stealing, cheating, killing would be bad for you, so you avoid them.

On the other hand, there is knowing, which can be linked to religion, but is independent from it. It comes from direct personal experience. I think a non believer would quite easily recognize this knowing in others as wisdom. Such people do not need any external rules of behaviour, because they have internalized them already and they will not impose any religious dogma on others.

A religion is only as good as its ability to show you your true identity, and is only as good as its follower's ability to understand that. 
If a religion fails in this goal, then it would probably be better not to follow it.
 

 

30 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

A religion is only as good as its ability to show you your true identity, and is only as good as its follower's ability to understand that. 

It would be more accurate to say "...as good as its ability to help you see your true identity". 

43 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

It would be more accurate to say "...as good as its ability to help you see your true identity". 

As diverse people will interpret it in many different ways,  the chances of erring are many...

3 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

So, the word 'God' is a synonym for the word 'unknowable'. Right? 

I've seen God referred to as "Great Mystery" in American Native Indian literature.

Edited May 24, 20215 yr by covidiot