Do you believe in God and why

[mauGR1]

22 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

If that is true, then I must really hate myself to create my present ( and much of my past ) life.

Also, the way my life turned out depended on the death of my 2 year old brother, and the effect that had on my parents. If we create our own reality why would I wish so much grief on my family at an age when I had no concept of life?

 

I prefer to disagree with your statement. Far as I'm concerned, <deleted> happens because it happens, not because it was imagined prior. In the end, life is chaos, IMO.

 

IMO religion is the attempt of people to make chaos rational, by believing there is some sort of "plan" for it all. I do not.

I believe that God created life the universe and everything and then left the universe to get on with it.

Although words can be inadequate to describe spiritual realities, i think that  @Tippaporn is right, we create our own reality. 

According to our karma and our wishes, we choose our environment, our family, our country, our body etc.

Right now, through our thoughts, feelings etc, we are creating other realities, for ourselves and for what surrounds us.

Wisdom comes from pain, and how we deal with pain, but pain will disappear, and the wisdom you achieve will stay with you. 

I don't believe in the dichotomy heaven/hell, but i believe in cycles of multiple incarnations, until we learn our lessons. 

 

 

[ozimoron]

Now, there's an oxymoron!

 

"spiritual realities"

[mauGR1]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

Now, there's an oxymoron!

 

"spiritual realities"

Nope, thoughts and feelings, which give shape to our existence, are not material,  yet they exist.

[ozimoron]

Just now, mauGR1 said:

Nope, thoughts and feelings, which give shape to our existence, are not material,  yet they exist.

We are not remarkably different to many other species of animal, share similar body organs and physiology. Like them, we are born out of chance and when we die we return to nothing. No different to a garden slug.

[mauGR1]

Just now, ozimoron said:

We are not remarkably different to many other species of animal, share similar body organs and physiology. Like them, we are born out of chance and when we die we return to nothing. No different to a garden slug.

That's what you think, if that's what makes you at peace with yourself, who i am to tell you that your thoughts are incorrect?

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

That's what you think, if that's what makes you at peace with yourself, who i am to tell you that your thoughts are incorrect?

I've spent a lifetime listening for any hint that my conclusions are not correct. All I see is a church I wouldn't spit on if it was on fire. The harm the church does to society far outweighs the good.

Edited August 29, 2022 by ozimoron

[mauGR1]

Just now, ozimoron said:

I've spent a lifetime listening for any hint that my conclusions are not correct. All I see is a church I wouldn't spit on.

Church is just a building, or an institution, if you don't like, just don't bother. 

I hope it doesn't sound offensive to you, but you and billions of people, including myself, have been brainwashed to identify with our physical bodies. 

If you want to know who you are, perhaps it's time you start to ask yourself some question. 

Hint: a physical body is a vehicle, our true essence is much more complex. 

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Church is just a building, or an institution, if you don't like, just don't bother. 

I hope it doesn't sound offensive to you, but you and billions of people, including myself, have been brainwashed to identify with our physical bodies. 

If you want to know who you are, perhaps it's time you start to ask yourself some question. 

Hint: a physical body is a vehicle, our true essence is much more complex. 

If that were true the church would be far less reliant on those props to make its case. The church is central to religion.

[thaibeachlovers]

23 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Although words can be inadequate to describe spiritual realities, i think that  @Tippaporn is right, we create our own reality. 

According to our karma and our wishes, we choose our environment, our family, our country, our body etc.

Right now, through our thoughts, feelings etc, we are creating other realities, for ourselves and for what surrounds us.

Wisdom comes from pain, and how we deal with pain, but pain will disappear, and the wisdom you achieve will stay with you. 

I don't believe in the dichotomy heaven/hell, but i believe in cycles of multiple incarnations, until we learn our lessons. 

 

 

Sorry, but if you and he are right, I would have to hate myself more than I could say on here.

I don't think I do, as I would have had to hate myself before my brother died, and why would I do that as a toddler? Where I am now can be traced directly to the death of my brother.

I'm not alone. Millions if not billions would have to hate themselves to end up with their lives. I choose not to believe that hate is the predominate emotion in humanity. IMO hope is the greatest human desire.

[mauGR1]

16 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Sorry, but if you and he are right, I would have to hate myself more than I could say on here.

I don't think I do, as I would have had to hate myself before my brother died, and why would I do that as a toddler? Where I am now can be traced directly to the death of my brother.

I'm not alone. Millions if not billions would have to hate themselves to end up with their lives. I choose not to believe that hate is the predominate emotion in humanity. IMO hope is the greatest human desire.

Uhm, i am surprised to hear such confusion, after 3 years of this thread.

As a last attempt to explain a concept, as i think that you are focusing too much on your troubles.. 

I have troubles too !! Everybody has !

Well, when i feel really desperate, about myself and everything, i pretend to sit on the moon, and look at the earth. 

What i see is a shining ball, which predominant color is blue etc.

I cannot see humans, but i know they are there, in the billions. So small, yet everyone feeling very important. 

They are like bacteria , in a slightly bigger picture. 

Normally this little exercise helps me to get some perspective.

[mauGR1]

33 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

If that were true the church would be far less reliant on those props to make its case. The church is central to religion.

Ok, but apart from your opinion on the church, (i guess you mean church as the institution)

Do you think there's a supernatural intelligent design in the universe and its laws?

[ozimoron]

13 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Ok, but apart from your opinion on the church, (i guess you mean church as the institution)

Do you think there's a supernatural intelligent design in the universe and its laws?

no

[Tippaporn]

I couldn't very well bow out of what has for me become little more than an endless merry go round to nowhere without offering up an apropos tune as music connects me to my source as nothing else does.  I hope you y'all understand.  Cheers and have continued fun.
 

 

[mauGR1]

1 hour ago, Tippaporn said:

I couldn't very well bow out of what has for me become little more than an endless merry go round to nowhere without offering up an apropos tune as music connects me to my source as nothing else does.  I hope you y'all understand.  Cheers and have continued fun.
 

 

Thanks, and enjoy your next merry go round ????

[thaibeachlovers]

22 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

Uhm, i am surprised to hear such confusion, after 3 years of this thread.

As a last attempt to explain a concept, as i think that you are focusing too much on your troubles.. 

I have troubles too !! Everybody has !

Well, when i feel really desperate, about myself and everything, i pretend to sit on the moon, and look at the earth. 

What i see is a shining ball, which predominant color is blue etc.

I cannot see humans, but i know they are there, in the billions. So small, yet everyone feeling very important. 

They are like bacteria , in a slightly bigger picture. 

Normally this little exercise helps me to get some perspective.

I was trying to explain why I DON'T believe that we make our own realities, but to do so I had to give some sort of evidence as to WHY, and that can only be from my personal life experience. It's not like there are school text books about it.

 

If I was wanting to write about my personal troubles, this isn't the thread to do so on, but in the end, we are all contributing from our personal experiences, and sometimes they are relevant to illustrate the point we are trying to make.

 

If personal experience was "out of bounds" for this thread, it'd be completely pointless, as belief in God can only be a personal experience. Do you disagree?

 

I'm trying to avoid getting back on here in a big way, but sometimes, something is said that IMO is worth the effort.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 8/27/2022 at 10:34 PM, Tippaporn said:

Seth has discussed science quite a bit.  He advocates for a loving science.  I'm all in favour of that.  As it stands now, however, science is not a loving one in many respects.  I'll have to dig up one of my more recent posts.

  

Science is valueless.  In other words science has zero moral principles guiding it.  It leaves philosophical questions to the philosophers.  I can certainly understand why since science would have an impossible time trying to prove any wisdom as being true or false.  At least physicians have the Hippocratic Oath.  Well, until Covid came along.

So please try and answer what the effects are of science's views, which are taught the world over, which I listed in my quote above?  Those views don't produce chaos?  Seriously, I will be waiting for an in depth answer.

Perhaps the vilest perspective that science holds is that life has no value.  "WHAT?!?!?!" you might protest in a screeching tone.  "That's not true!!!  It's the opposite!!!"

 

 

They had to cut the beagles' vocal chords so they didn't have to listen to their cries of pain.

 

You cannot discover the secrets of life by desecrating it.  The cruelty done to animals in the name of science is beyond words.  "But it's to save human life!!"  So the argument would be that to defile other life is okay as long as it's for the benefit of humans?  A pathetic argument indeed.  Is there no other way?  Yes, there is.

 

Freethinkers?  You make that sound as though freethinkers are a dangerous pox unto humanity.  How about getting the ideas of reality right?  You think that might be a solution?

The science types are extremely sensitive to being called out on their long list of unworthy and despicable contributions to society and the world.  From the creation of weapons of mass destruction, to pesticides, to GMO's, to the creation of chemicals such as Agent Orange and all the way to Covid.  How many have died in the name of science?  Or would you rather talk about the uniting effects of Covid?  The united protests across the world to put an end to the unscientific Covid restrictions put into place in most every western country?  No chaos created there, that's for sure.

Science isn't universally bad, as I've stated over and over again.  I'm not anti science.  I appreciate science's loving accomplishments.  Are you asking that I ignore their darker side and consider only their geniune triumphs?

You picked the wrong poster, Hummin, to try to sell the pathetic idea that only science can unite the world and prevent the chaos that would arise from a bunch of radical freethinkers.  I, least of all, have a need for science to "back up my ideas," hint: validate.

Change my mind?  About all I've learned in my long life?  What do you expect?  An, "Aw, gee, I was wrong about everything my entire life.  Thank god (with a small "g") for the God of Science to save me from my backward and wrong-headed thinking."  And for what?  Science hasn't a clue as to what makes this world go round.  If you've read my most recent posts, and I don't know that you have, then you just don't get it.  Here we go again with the doll with the pull ring coming out of it's back.

To be frank, Hummin, that was one of the most audacious posts I've read on this thread.  Talk about consummate hubris.

I normally scroll past your long posts, for reasons as previously discussed, but the picture of the 2 dogs made me read this one and I'm in full accord with your viewpoint

 

"You cannot discover the secrets of life by desecrating it.  The cruelty done to animals in the name of science is beyond words.  "But it's to save human life!!"  So the argument would be that to defile other life is okay as long as it's for the benefit of humans?  A pathetic argument indeed.  Is there no other way?  Yes, there is.

 

Far as I'm concerned, such wanton acts of barbarity only prove how little humanity deserves to live long and prosper.

Indeed, the way humanity is behaving at present with overpopulation, environmental destruction etc etc etc is IMO heralding the end of mankind's reign on this planet

[thaibeachlovers]

On 8/28/2022 at 3:04 AM, Hummin said:

You have good science, and you have biased science which search to serve a purpose, as much as religion does in politics and also for peoples personal lives. 
 

So I like to cherry picking. 
 

I do not accept more biological sexes than two, and Im ok if some tells me they are not what they where borned, but still as long you have reproductive organs as one sex, thats what you are from nature. 
 

I science says the earth is round, and I think that is right, than the earth is round. If the science says we orbit the sun, I also believe that, but that because I have faith in that science and the proof they have given me. Sometimes we just have to make certain decissions in life that also benefits us and the society. 

To prove the earth is round one only has to see the horizon on the ocean to see that it's curved. I don't know how they came to believe the earth is flat, unless they never saw the ocean's horizon.

Things like that, and that the earth circles the sun can be proven by simple logic- no need for highly paid scientists to prove such.

We spend billions on learning how the universe was begun, but in a world where multi millions are living lives of untold misery the money would be better spent on finding out how to live  better lives- one does not have to believe in God to know that's a much more worthwhile use of resources than discovering dark matter exists in space.

Much of science has benefited humans ( but not so much other species ), but also, much of science is loathsome, as in animal testing.

If ever we needed belief in a greater power to give us some morality, it's right now, as the human world descends into greed, corruption, cruelty and chaos.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 8/28/2022 at 6:35 PM, VincentRJ said:

Thanks for the link to the article by William A. Wilson. That's an interesting read. He highlights some very significant issues and problems within the various organizations of scientific inquiry. However, it would be a mistake to smear and cast doubt on the true and ideal 'methodology' of science just because of certain human failings which don't measure up to those ideal standards of the Methodology of Science.

Unfortunately, to live the lives they do, some scientists "prostitute" themselves to provide the "proof" needed for wicked people to prosper.

Till scientists are paid from public funds and politicians have zero control on them, expect nothing to change, IMO.

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

On 8/28/2022 at 7:07 PM, AsianAtHeart said:

No, "science" is not the answer to all of life's problems.  Not at all.  Perhaps "true science" is, but true science is unknown to most of today's scientists.  The truest and highest science that exists in this world is the science of salvation, and, whereas this is the only science that can lead to eternal life, most accept an inferior science in the pursuit of riches, fame, or temporal comfort--all of which are ephemeral.

Agree.

IMO much of science eg the science of building better weapons to kill each other and plastics that pollute the planet end to end has been disastrous for humanity and the planet, and some of it IMO is an abomination.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 8/28/2022 at 9:15 PM, Tippaporn said:

It always amazes me that people find someone who accomplishes a great deal in a given field and all of a sudden everyone hangs on his every belief about the rest of life's issues, of which he may be wholly inadequate to provide any worthwhile opinion.  Asking Elon about the 'meaning of life'?  What a joke.  You may as well ask your next door neighbor and would probably get a better reply.  Elon's answer is a bunch of generalised woo.

Agree. Perhaps the greatest example of human silliness is believing that actors who are good at playing a manufactured part in plays/ movies etc are actually experts on such things as climate.

Indeed, sometimes such  becomes so ludicrous that one can only laugh, such as when the UN assembly actually gave time to a teenager to lecture them on climate and publicly acclaimed her as some sort of important person, not forgetting the sycophantic media that gave her a platform to rant on.

[AsianAtHeart]

23 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

Although words can be inadequate to describe spiritual realities, i think that  @Tippaporn is right, we create our own reality. 

According to our karma and our wishes, we choose our environment, our family, our country, our body etc.

Right now, through our thoughts, feelings etc, we are creating other realities, for ourselves and for what surrounds us.

Wisdom comes from pain, and how we deal with pain, but pain will disappear, and the wisdom you achieve will stay with you. 

I don't believe in the dichotomy heaven/hell, but i believe in cycles of multiple incarnations, until we learn our lessons.

There are considerable problems with this worldview, and which would cause it to require a tremendous degree of faith to sustain it.  Foremost among these is that, in the "multiple incarnations," there are some extremely self-contradictory concepts involved.

 

Assuming we accept "multiple incarnations" to be a part of the reality of life, let's examine two further options to accompany this: the existence, or the non-existence, of God.

 

"MULTIPLE INCARNATIONS" + GOD

 

If God exists, and yet we have "multiple incarnations" in order to "learn our lessons," then we have some considerable issues to grapple with.  First, we must assume that God is not capable, or interested, in maintaining our lives long enough to "learn our lessons," without having to first die, and then start all over again.  Secondly, how much "learning" does an infant supposedly retain from his or her "past life"?  Does he or she not start from scratch?  Thirdly, how loving would God be to force upon us a repeated painful existence, with the supposed accumulation of wisdom as its only outcome?  Fourthly, what should determine when the reincarnations would cease?  Would God decide this arbitrarily?  Would something in our own minds be the arbiter of our destiny?  And if we could do anything to escape the cycle--what role, then, would God have in causing it?  Would God be powerless to force our reincarnation if our own minds, as created by Him, should have the ability to circumvent His will?

 

"MULTIPLE INCARNATIONS" WITHOUT GOD

 

Assuming God does not exist brings its own set of difficulties to the reincarnation dogma.  First, if God does not exist, how does the soul of an individual get preserved through death between incarnations?  What would initiate or cause this transfer, and how would it take place?  Secondly, as with the God scenario, how would any wisdom supposedly attained in one's lifetime transfer through the death zone to the next incarnation?  Do not babies start without knowledge?  Thirdly, and this is big, what would determine the direction one should go in his or her next life?  For example, Buddhists believe that if one lives a noble life, he or she will advance in the next life; but if not, the person will degrade in the next life--perhaps to that of a lower life form (animal).  But, if there is no Judge, who or what makes this determination?  Do not virtually all people think themselves good?  And if all are good, why would not all automatically advance in the next incarnation cycle?  If an individual did not advance (obviously against his or her wishes), what force or authority judged and determined this outcome?  Without a God, there is no Judge.  Fourthly, as before, who or what would determine when the cycle of incarnations should end?  And fifthly, who or what would determine the final destination of an individual?  Without God, what "heaven" could there be?  And what "hell" would exist apart from His supervision?  The very concept of "hell" is one of judgment and punishment, but without a God, there is not Judge and, consequently, cannot be any punishment.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 8/28/2022 at 10:59 PM, Hummin said:

However I believe human life is not more worth than any life on this planet. We have just be able to survive on this planet for the moment, because the climate  and other superior creatures have been either distinct, or not evolved yet. That can be a virus with coincidence happenings leading to a chain reaction wiping us out. 
 

Yes, I do not believe our presence is of more importance than any other life on the planet

Agree 100% with first paragraph.

 

Unfortunately we are able to wreak destruction on the beautiful planet we were given to live on, so we are actually of more importance than other species that can only live their lives.

The way we are destroying the environment may see us gone soon enough though.

 

Zager and Evans got it way back in 1969.

 

In The Year 2525

Song by Zager and Evans

 

In the year 7510
If God's a coming, He oughta make it by then
Maybe He'll look around Himself and say
Guess it's time for the judgment day
In the year 8510
God is gonna shake His mighty head
He'll either say I'm pleased where man has been
Or tear it down, and start again

In the year 9595
I'm kinda wonderin' if man is gonna be alive
He's taken everything this old earth can give
And he ain't put back nothing

Now it's been ten thousand years
Man has cried a billion tears
For what, he never knew, now man's reign is through
But through eternal night, the twinkling of starlight
So very far away, maybe it's only yesterday

[thaibeachlovers]

On 8/28/2022 at 11:25 PM, Fat is a type of crazy said:

You say science does not put worth on life. What is the standard or measuring stick of worth to which science might have an opinion? Worth to who?

That's easy. Science is worth it to the people that pay the scientists.

[mauGR1]

46 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I was trying to explain why I DON'T believe that we make our own realities, but to do so I had to give some sort of evidence as to WHY, and that can only be from my personal life experience. It's not like there are school text books about it.

 

If I was wanting to write about my personal troubles, this isn't the thread to do so on, but in the end, we are all contributing from our personal experiences, and sometimes they are relevant to illustrate the point we are trying to make.

 

If personal experience was "out of bounds" for this thread, it'd be completely pointless, as belief in God can only be a personal experience. Do you disagree?

 

I'm trying to avoid getting back on here in a big way, but sometimes, something is said that IMO is worth the effort.

Thanks for the heartfelt reply. 

Of course i apologize if sometimes i appear to be blunt, but it's just for the sake of clarity and brevity, and i know that you agree on the intellectual honesty, which is needed for a constructive debate.

That said, while it's true that we can influence,  and even shape reality,

according to our will, it's also true that there are many other powerful forces which from the outside , and sometimes from the inside, influence and determine our material lives and our spiritual paths. 

So, examining those forces is a good starting point for understanding of who we are.

 

[AsianAtHeart]

2 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

So, examining those forces is a good starting point for understanding of who we are.

Knowing who we are starts with knowing Who created us, and for what purpose.  Getting to know our Creator is what then gives us an understanding of our value.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 8/29/2022 at 2:17 AM, The Hammer2021 said:

The 'ME and MY maker syndrome used to lead me to ask:" Why did YOUR maker create childhood  cancer? Not just cancer but a special gift from God to hurt kids?"

That only works if one believes that God cares about individual humans. I don't. IMO in the vast cosmic scheme, a virus is of the same value as a human being.

 

If one can ask why God created cancer in children, one should also ask why God created humans with the ability and the will to kill each other in the millions. I think more people died needlessly in war than ever died of childhood cancer.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 8/30/2022 at 11:40 AM, ozimoron said:

We are not remarkably different to many other species of animal, share similar body organs and physiology. Like them, we are born out of chance and when we die we return to nothing. No different to a garden slug.

Can't disagree with that. I think my view that all life is of equal value in the cosmic scheme is well known by any regular poster on this thread.

IMO life force comes from the creator, and after the biological transport machine that "we" inhabit dies, that life force returns to the creator.

[thaibeachlovers]

18 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

I couldn't very well bow out of what has for me become little more than an endless merry go round to nowhere without offering up an apropos tune as music connects me to my source as nothing else does.  I hope you y'all understand.  Cheers and have continued fun.
 

 

If that is a goodbye, farewell.

I didn't read most of your posts for reasons previously discussed, but you seemed to have well reasoned points of view, even if I don't agree with some of them.

I assume you may have something to contribute elsewhere on the forum in 2024 and I look forward to that, assuming I'm still among the living inhabitants of planet Earth.

 

I can't say I will join you as this thread ( and the forum ) keeps sucking me back in just when I think I've managed to escape.

[mauGR1]

10 minutes ago, AsianAtHeart said:

Knowing who we are starts with knowing Who created us, and for what purpose.  Getting to know our Creator is what then gives us an understanding of our value.

Right, but I want to add that life is confusing in these days, and my generation, after ww2, has been indoctrinated to search happiness in materialism. 

Even talking about God raises eyebrows these days. 

Let's be honest, would you enter a bar, or even a private room with friends, acquaintances and strangers, and start talking about God ?

I feel lucky already to be able to discuss such things on a forum. 

So, thanks again for your great contributions, your words resonate with my perception of reality. 

[mauGR1]

6 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

can't say I will join you as this thread ( and the forum ) keeps sucking me back in just when I think I've managed to escape

Lol, i remember you and others, saying they quit the thread, then, after a while, coming back again. 

Of course i was happy to see you come back, and maybe @Tippaporn will be back too.