Latest Retirement Extension a Warning .

[smedly]

8 hours ago, khastan said:

Joe Mcseismic
2tall said:
A different tack here, but, anyways what are the likely scenario and options for retirement extension renewal if applicant fails to maintain the minimum bank balance of 400,000 Baht? I see this requirement becoming "watered down" significantly and just eliminated soon!

I would take a guess that if you go below the stipulated periods for keeping the 800k and the 400k, you won't get another extension because you have broken immigration law.

Joe I fully recognize what you say but for them to apply that rule in stone notification that the applicant have knowledge of these requirements has to be signed for when they do their visa extension beforehand , surely.

it will be interesting to see in 12 months time whether those that have used agents (not complying to the rules) will still be able to renew their extension - yes agents might take the money now (why not) but lets see where this ends up

 

A lot of people that comply with the law might be wondering - why

 

and why have immigration (this country) made it so difficult for those that do

 

we may see corruption in immigration laid bare - no place to hide it

[smedly]

8 hours ago, khastan said:

Judging from my recent experience I honestly do not think they have got a clue what rules to apply at the moment. The only way anyone will know otherwise for certain is when they come to renew their visa extensions. Even if you apply for a simple retirement extension the whole pack of paperwork that they have just spent the last hour plus collating and sorting has to go to a higher authority for final approval, so even they have not got the final say. If you can afford to do so I think you would be well advised for the foreseeable future to stick to the new rules they have drawn up, that is what I intend to do, but I will add with great reluctance.

well the truth is that we have people running things in this country that did not get the job through education - there are some very qualified educated sensible people working in your local 7/11 and family mart and in the private sector but those who hold high public office jobs did not get those jobs through any sort of acidemia - exactly what is wrong with this country

 

We have an low IQ of people in high public jobs were results reflect exactly that

 

Thailand could be so much better - sad but true 

[smedly]

5 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Yep. It's a cloud cuckoo land rule. We're being jerked around. End of. 

couldn't have put that better myself - like I said above, it reflects the education of people coming out with this nonsense - they need to sit down and think about what exactly they are trying to achieve - If I was sitting right now with the person that came up with this nonsense and asked them why - it would be a blank face - a wooden face - a face that was empty - it would be the same face if you asked the person responsible for road safety in Thailand - a blank stare of nothing - hollow knock on wood stare of empty except for the bank account 

[scubascuba3]

We have an low IQ of people in high public jobs were results reflect exactly that
 
Thailand could be so much better - sad but true 

I sometimes think this, but if they ran things how it should be done the country would be like Singapore and no one would want to be here. The reason we've liked Thailand for so long is it's backward

[smedly]

25 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

 

 

I sometimes think this, but if they ran things how it should be done the country would be like Singapore and no one would want to be here. The reason we've liked Thailand for so long is it's backward

 

I would agree with you except that Thailand relies heavily on tourism and believe it or not - retired people living here - Singapore is a very different animal and relies heavily on a very fine tuned invested niche economy - Thailand will never be Singapore - Black and white and complete opposites  - here is a clue - population and land mass - Singapore is Tiny on both, I believe the population of Greater Bangkok would be getting close to the total of Singapore and probably similar in size 

 

with all due respect 

 

I probably got lost somewhere when you mentioned Singapore - maybe you were agreeing with me not sure

Edited April 20, 2019 by smedly

[Joe Mcseismic]

The amount of retirees living in Thailand has exploded in the past twenty years.

Now, you can go anywhere up country and there are foreigners living there, even in the smallest villages. It was never like that before.

I think the reason for all this is obvious. Culling the herd. Thailand has enough of it's own poor. They don't want to import more from other countries. The requirements have got more restrictive. If this doesn't work, watch them make health insurance of a certain standard mandatory and/or increase the amount from 800k.

[mngmn]

On 4/18/2019 at 5:02 PM, MickeyDelux said:

 

I really feel bad for these poor folks who have so many problems with the immigration laws. They undoubtedly have few options and are barely able to understand the rules Thailand has put in place let alone follow them.

You are taking about Thai Immigration officers right?

[smedly]

1 hour ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

They don't want more expats

are you saying they don't want retired people from the west living here - is that what you mean, they don't want people supporting families here from the west - they don't want people from the west bringing money here and spending it as they live here

 

Economics 101 - if the huge number of western people living here (excluding those on holiday) were to move tomorrow to a neighboring country - Thailand would feel the effect - and for those that come here on holiday - a very large number would also move with them

 

Like I said before -

 

These numpties making these decisions need to think very carefully about what their objective is, there a lot of people that spend a lot of money here that are very pissed off right now - maybe some fresh thoughts about what they are trying to achieve which quite frankly is not making any sense right now, we have people wondering about whether they will be rejected at border crossings - people with Visa's wanting to come to this country and spend time and money here - that is quite frankly absurd 

[Joe Mcseismic]

Just now, smedly said:

are you saying they don't want retired people from the west living here - is that what you mean, they don't want people supporting families here from the west - they don't want people from the west bringing money here and spending it as they live here

 

Economics 101 - if the huge number of western people living here (excluding those on holiday) were to move tomorrow to a neighboring country - Thailand would feel the effect - and for those that come here on holiday - a very large number would also move with them

 

Like I said before -

 

These numpties making these decisions need to think very carefully about what their objective is, there a lot of people that spend a lot of money here that are very pissed off right now - maybe some fresh thoughts about what they are trying to achieve which quite frankly is not making any sense right now, we have people wondering about whether they will be rejected at border crossings - people with Visa's wanting to come to this country and spend time and money here - that is quite frankly absurd 

They don't want POOR expats. They don't want their country flooded with expats. There is a cultural dimension to this, too.

How many times have you heard citizens from Western countries complain about their country having "too many immigrants", even though those immigrants, more often than not, pay taxes and improve the economy. How many times have you heard the refrain "Thailand for the Thais". If Thailand wants to reduce the amount of retirees living here, what they have done makes perfect sense. The money spent by retirees is a tiny, tiny portion of the total economy. As for supporting Thais, the ruling class have shown time and time again their total disdain for the Thai working class, which most of the girlfriends and wives come from. You're thinking like a Westerner with Western values. That's a mistake.

[jacko45k]

14 hours ago, sfokevin said:

Recycled?

To a limited degree. The TM30 slip or 90 day reporting slip may well be printed on the back of Fritz Mueller's passport photo page or John Smith's bank book copy. 

[Joe Mcseismic]

39 minutes ago, smedly said:

These numpties making these decisions need to think very carefully about what their objective is, there a lot of people that spend a lot of money here that are very pissed off right now - maybe some fresh thoughts about what they are trying to achieve which quite frankly is not making any sense right now, we have people wondering about whether they will be rejected at border crossings - people with Visa's wanting to come to this country and spend time and money here - that is quite frankly absurd 

These "numpties" know exactly what their objective is.

Those people "that spend a lot of money" will have no problem meeting the new requirements, then.

 

The bottom line is, is that we as foreigners have about as much influence as the small beetle crawling across my computer screen right now.

Meet the requirements, or leave. There is nothing else we can do.

[smedly]

44 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

How many times have you heard citizens from Western countries complain about their country having "too many immigrants", even though those immigrants, more often than not, pay taxes and improve the economy

do they, I have no issue with people paying taxes and contributing, that is exactly what retired people do here - there is no freeloading we all pay are way

 

But the very big difference is that everyone that comes here from the west to live is doing exactly that and spending their own money 

 

you are trying to compare Thailand to a western country that offers welfare and free healthcare, in the UK for example - there are many freeloaders from eastern EU countries that travel there and become freeloaders - getting benefits they would never get in their home countries

 

you are honestly confused my friend - very confused 

[Joe Mcseismic]

15 minutes ago, smedly said:

do they, I have no issue with people paying taxes and contributing, that is exactly what retired people do here - there is no freeloading we all pay are way

 

But the very big difference is that everyone that comes here from the west to live is doing exactly that and spending their own money 

 

you are trying to compare Thailand to a western country that offers welfare and free healthcare, in the UK for example - there are many freeloaders from eastern EU countries that travel there and become freeloaders - getting benefits they would never get in their home countries

 

you are honestly confused my friend - very confused 

Nope. You're forgetting the cultural aspect and I have already said that the money people spend here is insignificant. You seem to be hung up on this money thing. It's not about money.

They want to reduce the amount of Westerners living here because their population has exploded in recent years. The easiest way to do that is exactly what they are doing.

 

I have offered an opinion on why they have done this. You haven't.

You only say it's a mistake and short sighted, which could be construed as self-serving and subjective.

Thais are not as stupid as people think and there must be a reason for these new regulations. I'd be interested in what you think the reason for them are, in an objective way.

Edited April 21, 2019 by Joe Mcseismic

[smedly]

7 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

I have already said that the money people spent here is insignificant

seriously mate - go do a little research 

 

and I put that the nicest most respectful way I could - it wasn't what I was thinking I have to admit

 

anyway you have your opinion and you are of course entitled to it but you need to do some sums and some research, I think you will find that people living here in Thailand contribute quite a substantial amount of money to the Thai economy - not to mention all those friends that come on holiday to visit them 

 

lets leave it there

[Thailand Outcast]

28 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

These "numpties" know exactly what their objective is.

Those people "that spend a lot of money" will have no problem meeting the new requirements, then.

 

The bottom line is, is that we as foreigners have about as much influence as the small beetle crawling across my computer screen right now.

Meet the requirements, or leave. There is nothing else we can do.

Joe, I can see your argument, IF the agents were shut down, and this is why I immediately thought to my Plan B country when I read about the law changes.

 

However, IF the agents are allowed to continue operating, your argument goes out the window.

 

Should the agents, keep operating, we will see those using the 800k / 400k method pay around 2500 baht more a month to live here, than those who used an agent, for the same visa. with full access to their money, and no seasoning to comply with. It's then possible we may see people move from the 800k / 400k method to agents, as the agent method offers more flexibility for their finances, and is simply, cheaper.

 

Currently, the agents are operating as normal, and are probably getting more business now, so whist it is early days, they appear to have the approval of the immigration department to keep operating, for a fee, of course. 

 

Interesting times ahead.

[smedly]

15 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

 

They want to reduce the amount of Westerners living here because their population has exploded in recent years. The easiest way to do that is exactly what they are doing.

oh sorry forgot to mention, are you saying that -

 

Thailand has a housing problem lol - seriously mate - a housing problem ?  OMG

 

I think you are trolling now - just posting nonsense for the sake of it

 

and you don't think this country has any focus on money - are you serious !!!!!!!

 

 

MONEY NUMBER ONE

[jacko45k]

2 minutes ago, Thailand Outcast said:

Should the agents, keep operating, we will see those using the 800k / 400k method pay around 2500 baht more a month to live here, than those who used an agent, for the same visa. with full access to their money, and no seasoning to comply with. It's then possible we may see people move from the 800k / 400k method to agents, as the agent method offers more flexibility for their finances, and is simply, cheaper

Selective thought process.

Firstly if one uses an agent he pays 18,000 baht more and there is no extra monthly charge using regular methods. With an agent you won't get a Visa but an Extension that has been obtained by bribing an immigration official.  The agent method (without the qualifying bank/income funds) is and always will be a back door method where corruption is involved.  Don't get me wrong, I would use it if I did not see better alternatives. 

[smedly]

10 minutes ago, Thailand Outcast said:

Currently, the agents are operating as normal, and are probably getting more business now

why would they not take your money right now they have no obligation to anyone next year when immigration ask to see your balance of 400k for 7 months and 800k for 3 months after your last 12 month extension - you know that bankbook that shows a balance of 800k for 1 day and nothing for the next 12 months - not saying that will happen but hey you're really shafted if they want to see it

 

and yes you can go back to your agent and the reply might be - sorry I can do nothing about that - up to you and thank you for your 18k last year - me happy happy

Edited April 21, 2019 by smedly

[Joe Mcseismic]

5 minutes ago, smedly said:

oh sorry forgot to mention, are you saying that -

 

Thailand has a housing problem lol - seriously mate - a housing problem ?  OMG

 

I think you are trolling now - just posting nonsense for the sake of it

 

and you don't think this country has any focus on money - are you serious !!!!!!!

 

 

MONEY NUMBER ONE

Housing problem? No, not at all. The problem is the very high population of foreigners living in Thailand.

The contribution to the Thai economy by retirees is tiny. Total tourism only accounts for 17%. Maybe it should be you doing the research.

Me trolling? Nope. You just don't like what I'm saying.

Still waiting on your explanation on why the government has done this.

[Thailand Outcast]

2 hours ago, smedly said:

it will be interesting to see in 12 months time whether those that have used agents (not complying to the rules) will still be able to renew their extension - yes agents might take the money now (why not) but lets see where this ends up

 

A lot of people that comply with the law might be wondering - why

 

and why have immigration (this country) made it so difficult for those that do

 

we may see corruption in immigration laid bare - no place to hide it

I would not be surprised if those on the 800k / 400k method are given a hard time by immigration, on purpose, because they are not making and corrupt payment from them. 

 

In any case, I agree with you.  When one does the maths, and I have posted the maths in a previous post, those on the 800k / 400k method may very well be asking why am I going to so much trouble, and paying around 2500 baht more a month than the guys that just go and pay 20k baht to an agent, and receive the same visa, and they get to keep their money in the safety of they home country, earning around 6% to 8%, instead of moving that money to an unstable country, only earning 1.5%, with control on how they use of their own money. 

 

Is it possible, if agents are allowed to continue to operate, it can be win win for expats and immigration?  Expats get a cheaper and easier visa, and you retain control of your money, and immigration officers get rich on corrupt payments.

 

I don't condone corruption, but maybe all of this mess could end up in a positive result for the individuals involved, with the Thai banks missing out, therefore, to a degree, the Thai economy. 

[Joe Mcseismic]

Notice that there has been no crack-down on the B visa.

These people are a real asset to Thailand. Unlike retirees, they pay tax and create employment.

I would postulate that the number of B visa holders would be close to how many hold retirement visas, yet, they are far more useful to the country than retirees.

[Thailand Outcast]

34 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

Nope. You're forgetting the cultural aspect and I have already said that the money people spend here is insignificant. You seem to be hung up on this money thing. It's not about money.

They want to reduce the amount of Westerners living here because their population has exploded in recent years. The easiest way to do that is exactly what they are doing.

 

I have offered an opinion on why they have done this. You haven't.

You only say it's a mistake and short sighted, which could be construed as self-serving and subjective.

Thais are not as stupid as people think and there must be a reason for these new regulations. I'd be interested in what you think the reason for them are, in an objective way.

Joe, how can you say it's not about the money when the new laws are based on exactly that, money????

 

Why would they want to reduce the amount of expat retirees here?  They don't take a job from a Thai.  They bring in foreign currency.  They contribute to the housing and vehicle industry here.  They are not a burden on health care because their either pay up front, or have insurance.  They pay taxes, everything from property taxes to VAT.  They certainly contribute to the hospitality industry here.  99.9% are law abiding, so no trouble with the police.  In general terms, provide employment.  

 

You seem to have this view that any expat who doesn't put 800k in a Thai bank must have lost all their money to a Thai hooker, and is now practically living on the street, begging for money, and these are the people Thai want to get rid of.  These people do exist, but I would suggest they are on overstay and will have to be rounded up another way, because the 800k method will not move them on.     

[luckyluke]

"Rich in, Poor out"

 

Not convinced. 

 

Except for 3 countries, one can still obtain an extension with no money in a Thai bank. 

 

With no obligation to transfer at least 65000 monthly. 

 

So in theory one can still live here with no bank account, and with whatever what monthly amount that suits you. 

 

It may change tomorrow of course. 

 

 

[Joe Mcseismic]

Money is the easiest way to cull the herd. Get rid of the poorer expats and keep the richer.

This kills two birds with one stone. Reducing the total amount of retirees and increasing the perceived quality of the remaining retirees.

 

I still haven't heard anyone come up with an explanation as to WHY the rules have changed.

[Thailand Outcast]

42 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

Housing problem? No, not at all. The problem is the very high population of foreigners living in Thailand.

The contribution to the Thai economy by retirees is tiny. Total tourism only accounts for 17%. Maybe it should be you doing the research.

Me trolling? Nope. You just don't like what I'm saying.

Still waiting on your explanation on why the government has done this.

To capitalize Thai banks. 

 

It's a cheap farang loan to the Thai banking sector, therefore the Thai economy. 

 

Why else do you think you can't touch the 800k for 5 months, and the 400k forever, if the purpose of the money is to prove you have funds to live on here?

Edited April 21, 2019 by Thailand Outcast

[Thailand Outcast]

1 minute ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

Money is the easiest way to cull the herd. Get rid of the poorer expats and keep the richer.

This kills two birds with one stone. Reducing the total amount of retirees and increasing the perceived quality of the remaining retirees.

 

I still haven't heard anyone come up with an explanation as to WHY the rules have changed.

If that's the case, when will the 800k jump to 1.5 million, to have a "better" herd?

[smedly]

14 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

I still haven't heard anyone come up with an explanation as to WHY the rules have changed.

and there was me thinking that you thought you had all the answers 

 

how wrong we can all be at times lol

[Thailand Outcast]

50 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

Selective thought process.

Firstly if one uses an agent he pays 18,000 baht more and there is no extra monthly charge using regular methods. With an agent you won't get a Visa but an Extension that has been obtained by bribing an immigration official.  The agent method (without the qualifying bank/income funds) is and always will be a back door method where corruption is involved.  Don't get me wrong, I would use it if I did not see better alternatives. 

I thought I put forward the maths in this thread, but it was in another thread, so I have cut and pasted it.

 

In order to be consistent, I have not edited it. 

 

I agree with you the use of agents is a corrupt method, and I have never used them before, and never considered using them, but if they are allowed to continue to operate, and at this stage it appears they are, then, their use can only be described at state sanctioned corruption, therefore, making a visa obtained through an agent, perfectly fine for the holder.  

 

Quote:

 

Firstly, the 800k is tied up for 5 months.  400k is tied up forever.  Of course, you can withdraw any or all of it, but you will not receive next year's visa, so that's as good as 400k you will never see again, for as long as you wish to live in Thailand. 

 

You will get between 6% to 8% return if your 800k is in a diversified, non aggressive, managed fund, in your home country.  Let's just pick the average of 7% for this example.

 

You get 1.5% from a Thai bank for your 800k.

 

Here's the maths.

 

800,000 baht x 7% = 56,000 baht per year.  (return from a fund)

 

800,000 baht x 1.5% = 12,000 baht per year.  (return from a Thai bank)

 

56,000 baht - 12,000 baht = 44,000 baht.  (this is what you are forced to "lose" under the 800k method)

 

44,000 baht + 1900 baht (visa fee) = 45,900 baht.  (this is the total cost to an expat using the 800k method, and they have lost the use of their money through seasoning and have to deal with all the paperwork)

 

45,900 baht / 12 months = 3.825 baht. (visa cost per month to live in Thailand under the 800k method)

 

versus

 

20,000 baht / 12 = 1,666 baht.  (visa cost per month to live in Thailand if you use an agent, and there is no seasoning to worry about, and you maintain control of your finances, which are left in a safe western country, and no paperwork to do)

 

3,825 baht - 1,666 baht = 2,159 baht.  This is the extra cost to people using the 800k method, or, what people using the agents save, per month.

 

Remember, we are talking about the same "product."  Not an inferior visa class.  

 

Of course, there are other issues to think about, like how your beneficiaries get the money if it's in a Thai bank etc, but the above shows the loss / savings over one method versus the other method.

 

I am lucky, I have some time to sit back and see what happens after the 90 days, with those who have used an agent. 

 

To sum up, the 800k runs at a continual loss for the expat, as it doesn't even keep up with inflation.  

 

You say I don't see the 20,000 baht ever again, but you don't see the 44,000 baht in losses, that you will never earn each year, from being forced to lodge 800k into a Thai bank, at 1.5%, with 400k of it you can never use again.    

 

Now, compare the 800k method to the visas offered in nearby countries, and you can see what a lousy deal this is.   

 

End quote.

Edited April 21, 2019 by Thailand Outcast

[smedly]

17 minutes ago, Thailand Outcast said:

To capitalize Thai banks. 

 

It's a cheap farang loan to the banking sector, therefore the Thai economy. 

 

Why else do you think you can't touch the 800k for 5 months, and the 400k forever, if the purpose of the money is to prove you have funds to live on here?

I admire your attempt at trying to rationalise what the point of all this is 

 

I'm inclined to think it is just plain stupidity enacted by people that are not fit for purpose, like I said earlier - the public sector in Thailand is severely lacking in education and needs a complete overhaul - a lot of people in immigration are hard working and I'm pretty sure they are as confused as us as to why their big bosses come up with this nonsense

[smedly]

23 minutes ago, Thailand Outcast said:

If that's the case, when will the 800k jump to 1.5 million, to have a "better" herd?

there are still people living here at 200k and 500k

 

when its all said and done with these new rules over the 5 month period it is already over 1 million