employment dispute - Labour Office vs Court?

[fcbkk]

Appreciate any ideas or advice you can add.

 

My employer terminated my employment for late April due to business situation and reduced activities. They gave notice and we signed terms in a severance agreement. Unfortunately, the company has not complied with any of these terms. They have not completed Salary payments, have not paid Severance and numerous overdue, approved Expenses including contracted benefits remain outstanding. Multiple requests for payment and updates have not been responded to.

 

I am a bit lost as to best next steps. The options and key Pro/Cons that i am aware of are:

 

option 1) file a complaint via Labour (protection and welfare) Office. This process initially takes 2-3 months, but they can only investigate for and deal with Salary + Severance, but not Expenses. On the up side they have some legal teeth and can add pressure on the employer once their initial investigation has been concluded.

 

or

 

option 2) file a complaint via Labour Court. They can investigate for all payments + compensation, i.e. cost incurred as a consequence of the company’s breach of contract. But their process can take much longer and they have less legal power to enforce anything. Even if they eventually find in my favour if the employer refuses to pay up then i would have to file another case with a different authority.

 

Anyone gone through similar process? Thanks for any ideas or suggestions you may have. 

[Kwasaki]

17 hours ago, fcbkk said:

My employer terminated my employment for late April due to business situation and reduced activities.

In other words there down the pan, broke, I would say if you try action to recover what your owed for a small cost OK but if not don't bother.

[Bredbury Blue]

Over a decade ago i had a similar problem.

I worked for the thailand office of a foreign company.

They were terminating all local staff on an agreed basis (termination package plus a bonus package for sticking around until an agreed date).

They did not fulfil the terms of the termination package with me.

The wife and i went to a labour office on Rama IV road very close to Hualamphong.

I made a statement and the wife had to write it in thai. 

A court date was given for both parties to appear.

Court was in the same compound.

All proceedings were in thai.

Had to hire a lawyer to represent me in court.

Three judges.

Pleased to say i won and received a settlement.

Took 18 months.

Worth it to prove the barstewards wrong and receive the settlement.

 

[fcbkk]

3 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

In other words there down the pan, broke, I would say if you try action to recover what your owed for a small cost OK but if not don't bother.

Thanks Kwasaki, you have a good point of course. But then, the company is not small and i can only guess that they will get back on their feet. It will just take time ????

[natway09]

Go to the Labour Dept first. They are pretty sympathetic to these kinds of things in

particular as you have a signed severance agreement.

Make sure your all your ducks are in a row first

[MiNombreEsFicticious]

I filed a claim in labour court for unpaid notice and severance. The first hearing was scheduled about a month the filing date, and the employer agreed to settle for nearly the full amount at the first hearing (run by a negotiator). If the company failed to comply with any of the terms agreed at the court, the directors would have their personal assets seized until the full judgement was satisfied. You have to approach it will a willingness to accept less than 100% of your demand, but with a strong case you can get 85% or 90% and be done quickly. Who says it's 2-3 months? Mine was 30 days start to finish.

[fcbkk]

5 minutes ago, Bredbury Blue said:

Over a decade ago i had a similar problem.

I worked for the thailand office of a foreign company.

They were terminating all local staff on an agreed basis (termination package plus a bonus package for sticking around until an agreed date).

They did not fulfil the terms of the termination package with me.

The wife and i went to a labour office on Rama IV road very close to Hualamphong.

I made a statement and the wife had to write it in thai. 

A court date was given for both parties to appear.

Court was in the same compound.

All proceedings were in thai.

Had to hire a lawyer to represent me in court.

Three judges.

Pleased to say i won and received a settlement.

Took 18 months.

Worth it to prove the barstewards wrong and receive the settlement.

 

Thanks Bredbury Blue.

 

The location that you describe is actually the Labour Court i believe. I've been there and some of their advice fed into my first message that started the thread.

What they told me is that they can file a formal complaint for all types of owed payments as well as compensation, but also that they themselves had little legal power to enforce action through the company.

Their process would often take 12 months and if the company then refused to act on their findings and recommendations i would have to take the case to another authority called the 'Legal Execution Department'. Which in turn would add another perhaps lengthy process?!
From what you describe the 18 months could match with what they called a lengthy process, but perhaps back then (over a decade ago) they were organised differently and did have the power to enforce action via court themselves? Or the court is part of the 'Execution Department'??

Likely i need to visit a few more times for more info with translation assistance, it's not so easy to verify all options in fine detail.

 

Good to hear you received your dues in the end - and proved them wrong ????

[fcbkk]

13 minutes ago, natway09 said:

Go to the Labour Dept first. They are pretty sympathetic to these kinds of things in

particular as you have a signed severance agreement.

Make sure your all your ducks are in a row first

Thanks Natway09!

 

My problem is that i am not sure what ducks should be in what row.

 

I've been to the Labour Office (specifically the Protection and Welfare Department) to get their advice. They have some legal firepower and can enforce action through the company - but expenses (and any compensation) are not covered under the employment laws, hence they can only deal with Salary and Severance. 

 

Added complexity is that the company is in Samut X, which means the Labour Office in Samut X is  responsible and the senior officer of course knows the company and its owners. This might not have to be a disadvantage, but atm i am a bit uncertain as to what the best action would be. 

 

Broadly speaking the options seem to be either

1) faster process for Salary and Severance via Labour Office in Samut X.

or

2) slower process for all cost via Labour Court - possibly in Bangkok where i reside.

 

perhaps a bit more thinking through and then i can see the row for the ducks to lign up with??

 

Thanks for comments and thoughts all!

[fcbkk]

19 minutes ago, MiNombreEsFicticious said:

I filed a claim in labour court for unpaid notice and severance. The first hearing was scheduled about a month the filing date, and the employer agreed to settle for nearly the full amount at the first hearing (run by a negotiator). If the company failed to comply with any of the terms agreed at the court, the directors would have their personal assets seized until the full judgement was satisfied. You have to approach it will a willingness to accept less than 100% of your demand, but with a strong case you can get 85% or 90% and be done quickly. Who says it's 2-3 months? Mine was 30 days start to finish.

 

Thanks MiNombreEsFicticious!

 

What you describe sounds like the legal firepower, of which the Labour Office has more than the Labour Court, at least in the early stages of such process, as they both described it to me (via a Thai translation assistance).

 

The Labour Office takes max 60 days to investigate and then another 30 days to arrive at a judgement.  It can be faster too (as the 30 days in your case?), provided the case and facts are clear (which they are), and the company does not appeal or present contradictory statements (which is not clear or reliable, as their behaviour suggests the worst intentions). 

 

The biggest complication for me is that the Labour Office can only deal with cost enshrined under the employment laws (salary, severance), but cannot deal with other cost, of which there is also a reasonable sum owed (approved expenses, contracted benefits). The Labour Court can deal with all types of cost (plus compensation), but their process is much slower and they cannot enforce action e.g. through seizing of director's assets, at least not early on in the process.

 

Not convinced that it is right to approach this with a willingness to accept less than what is legally owed and due. If that is the best possible finding recommended by the courts for whatever reason then sure, otherwise i think the company's behaviour deserves a penalty if anything, rather than a let off.

 

 

[wmlc]

You need a lawyer and if you want to everything by yourself, you won’t be able to. The labor officer does not speak English. I went through it already. Hire a lawyer 

[Captain 776]

If you decide to hire an attorney.

Take a look at Siam Legal, good lawyers, some western trained and speak English.

I have used them on 2 cases and maybe a 3rd coming up, I am very happy with their service provided.

[fcbkk]

15 hours ago, wmlc said:

You need a lawyer and if you want to everything by yourself, you won’t be able to. The labor officer does not speak English. I went through it already. Hire a lawyer 

 

Thanks wmlc!

 

It may not be possible to recover legal fees, hence this is not an easy decision. I was quoted some 65k to file the 1st complaint via Labour Office and betw. 100-200k for litigation (which would then also cover attempts to get payment of expenses and compensation).

Both Labour Office and Labour Court have told me that it is not necessary to hire a lawyer, as they will process complaints according to the law and that is in my interest, as the case is clear with the company violating regulations.

I appreciate that language is key, but have a Thai assist with the process. Still thinking it through, but right now i think that i favour an approach as Bredbury Blue described it earlier. If the Labour Court reaches a settlement that the company complies with then great. If the company does not comply and the case has to go to the court that is when a lawyer will be necessary.

 

But again, i am still thinking about it all as there are many complexities involved with locations and communication obviously being key.

 

Thanks for all thoughts and input, much appreciated.

 

[fcbkk]

11 hours ago, Captain 776 said:

If you decide to hire an attorney.

Take a look at Siam Legal, good lawyers, some western trained and speak English.

I have used them on 2 cases and maybe a 3rd coming up, I am very happy with their service provided.

 

Thank you Captain 776!

 

had obtained a ballpark quote from different lawyers previously, but might now also ask Siam. 

 

[fcbkk]

Update in case it helps anyone in a similar situation:

 

Formal complaint filed with the Welfare and Protection Unit of the Labour Office. Their initial investigation with both me and former employer took close to the max period of 60 days.
They then issued a legally binding order for the company to pay Severance with 15% interest. Both parties may appeal this order within 30 days. Such appeal would then be dealt with via the Labour Court. Failure to appeal or pay constitutes a criminal offence, which again would have to be taken to the Labour Court to enforce compliance.

 

As expected the Labour Office did only act on items specifically covered under employment legislation, i.e. Salary and Severance, along with interest for late payment thereof. The Labour Office did not investigate nor enquire other points that are not directly covered under legislation, namely expenses and contracted benefits, potentially compensation such as loss of opportunity. Failure to pay any such outstanding demands would again have to be dealt with by the courts.