Taiwan and U.S. security officials hold rare meeting amid China tension

[webfact]

Taiwan and U.S. security officials hold rare meeting amid China tension

 

Flags of Taiwan and U.S. are placed for a meeting between U.S. House Foreign Affairs Committee Chairman Ed Royce speaks and with Su Chia-chyuan, President of the Legislative Yuan in Taipei, Taiwan March 27, 2018. REUTERS/Tyrone Siu

 

TAIPEI (Reuters) - Senior national security officials from the United States and Taiwan have met to deepen cooperation, the government in Taipei said, the first such meeting in four decades that came amid tense relations between the United States and China.

 

Taiwan's national security chief David Lee met White House national security adviser John Bolton earlier this month, the island's foreign affairs ministry said in a statement on Saturday.

 

The official Central News Agency said the meeting was the first since the island and the United States ended formal diplomatic ties in 1979.

 

China considers Taiwan a renegade province, to be reclaimed by force if necessary, and the meeting is likely to anger Beijing further with Sino-U.S. relations already tense.

 

The diplomatic temperature has risen in recent weeks amid an escalating trade war, U.S. sanctions and China's increasingly muscular military posture in the South China Sea, where the United States also conducts freedom-of-navigation patrols.

 

The rare meeting will be viewed by Taiwan as a sign of support from the Trump administration. Tensions have also risen between Taipei and Beijing, which considers the democratically ruled island part of "one China".

 

The meeting took place during Lee's May 13-21 visit to the United States, Taiwan's brief statement said.

 

"During the trip, together with U.S. government officials, Secretary-General Lee met with representatives from our diplomatic allies, reiterating support and commitment to a free and open Indo-Pacific region," the statement said.

 

Taiwan's foreign affairs ministry and America's de facto embassy in Taiwan declined to comment on Monday.

 

Beijing regularly calls Taiwan the most sensitive and important issue in ties with the United States, which has no formal ties with Taiwan but is the island's main source of arms.

 

The Unites States has in recent months increased the frequency of patrols through the strategic Taiwan Strait despite opposition from China.

 

China has been ramping up military and diplomatic pressure to assert its sovereignty over the island, conducting drills near Taiwan and snatching its few remaining diplomatic allies.

 

Earlier in May, the U.S. House of Representatives backed legislation supporting Taiwan as members of the U.S. Congress pushed for a sharper approach to relations with Beijing.

 

The Pentagon says Washington has sold Taipei more than $15 billion in arms since 2010.

 

(Reporting By Yimou Lee; Editing by Paul Tait)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2019-05-27

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[Pedrogaz]

China should invade and be done with it. This foolishness cannot go on. 

[Fore Man]

Foolishness?  I think most casual bystanders would side with the lopsidedly smaller Republic of China whose people only want to remain free and left alone by the mainland political machine and propaganda apparatus. I don’t consider these wishes to be foolish in any way.  Your shallow attitude might change once you’ve been to Taiwan and befriended its people who are perhaps the most hospitable I’ve ever known anywhere. They deserve self-direction and national autonomy, just as any democratic nation anywhere else and not be threatened by a giant bully that happens to share a common heritage and language. 

[mushroomdave]

Foolishness?  I think most casual bystanders would side with the lopsidedly smaller Republic of China whose people only want to remain free and left alone by the mainland political machine and propaganda apparatus. I don’t consider these wishes to be foolish in any way.  Your shallow attitude might change once you’ve been to Taiwan and befriended its people who are perhaps the most hospitable I’ve ever known anywhere. They deserve self-direction and national autonomy, just as any democratic nation anywhere else and not be threatened by a giant bully that happens to share a common heritage and language. 

 

Well said sir.  I have lived between Thailand and here in Taiwan for 20 yrs (Taiwan mostly) and totally agree.  They have a democratically-elected government and many more freedoms than in the shit-hole communist mainland.  I would like to see them invade as the U.S. would be here in no time.....by their agreement signed.

[Dumbastheycome]

Scratching the itch some more?  US Security Officials. Not Trade nor Diplomatic.

 

[Fore Man]

I was once one of those ‘US Security Officials’, banned by US diplomatic policy from setting foot in Taiwan (only our officials of lesser ranks visiting for strictly technical purposes can enter the country) and we policy and administrative types could only meet with our Taiwanese counterparts away from their homeland.  When their senior military officers met us in the US, they were not permitted to wear their own uniforms and we were prohibited from addressing them by their proper rank. Thus ‘General X’ became ‘Mr. X’. Quite a slap in the face to men who had served their country for a full and honorable career. We were not allowed to even refer to them as ‘Taiwanese’, but instead had to use the derogatory diminutive ‘the Taiwans’.  Why?  Because the ‘ese’ suffix connoted nationality.  Ridiculous policy and all in appeasement to Big China for fear of offending them.  In our zeal to maintain tempers in Beijing though, nobody seemed to mind offending the Taiwanese. While we privately support the Republic and will come to the island’s defense, the US government still insults them with these silly word games because it reins in potential cross-straits hostilities and helps to maintain the status quo.  I could go on and on, but let’s just leave it at this:  Taiwanese are a great and fine people who live under the constant shadow of hostile acts by a belligerent tyrant neighbor.  They deserve far more respect than they get. 

 

‘Nuff said.  

[from the home of CC]

The trouble now is that we don't know Mr. T's ulterior motives. Many folks worldwide thought the Huawei clamp was security related and now it appears it may be part of bargaining chip or so he tweets. I'm sure the U.K.'s head was just spinning on that one, I know the Canadians are just shaking theirs. The timing with the meet is definitely suspect, as well under the guise of 'security'. If the Chinese ever just 'snap' at these provocations (no matter who is in the wrong) the rest of the world will suffer. This isn't the 'little rocket man' he's embarrassing and I believe they have no qualms at sacrificing many for the 'greater good'.  To be a citizen of Taiwan for me would be of perpetually having that feeling that a shit storm is just around the corner -  though they seem to deal with it well. 

[Fore Man]

1 minute ago, from the home of CC said:

The trouble now is that we don't know Mr. T's ulterior motives. Many folks worldwide thought the Huawei clamp was security related and now it appears it may be part of bargaining chip or so he tweets. I'm sure the U.K.'s head was just spinning on that one, I know the Canadians are just shaking theirs. The timing with the meet is definitely suspect, as well under the guise of 'security'. If the Chinese ever just 'snap' at these provocations (no matter who is in the wrong) the rest of the world will suffer. This isn't the 'little rocket man' he's embarrassing and I believe they have no qualms at sacrificing many for the 'greater good'.  To be a citizen of Taiwan for me would be of perpetually having that feeling that a shit storm is just around the corner -  though they seem to deal with it well. 

Well put!

[bristolboy]

1 hour ago, mushroomdave said:

Foolishness?  I think most casual bystanders would side with the lopsidedly smaller Republic of China whose people only want to remain free and left alone by the mainland political machine and propaganda apparatus. I don’t consider these wishes to be foolish in any way.  Your shallow attitude might change once you’ve been to Taiwan and befriended its people who are perhaps the most hospitable I’ve ever known anywhere. They deserve self-direction and national autonomy, just as any democratic nation anywhere else and not be threatened by a giant bully that happens to share a common heritage and language. 

 

Well said sir.  I have lived between Thailand and here in Taiwan for 20 yrs (Taiwan mostly) and totally agree.  They have a democratically-elected government and many more freedoms than in the shit-hole communist mainland.  I would like to see them invade as the U.S. would be here in no time.....by their agreement signed.

Because you can count on Trump to honor US military commitments?

[tonbridgebrit]

2 hours ago, mushroomdave said:

Foolishness?  I think most casual bystanders would side with the lopsidedly smaller Republic of China whose people only want to remain free and left alone by the mainland political machine and propaganda apparatus. I don’t consider these wishes to be foolish in any way.  Your shallow attitude might change once you’ve been to Taiwan and befriended its people who are perhaps the most hospitable I’ve ever known anywhere. They deserve self-direction and national autonomy, just as any democratic nation anywhere else and not be threatened by a giant bully that happens to share a common heritage and language. 

 

Well said sir.  I have lived between Thailand and here in Taiwan for 20 yrs (Taiwan mostly) and totally agree.  They have a democratically-elected government and many more freedoms than in the shit-hole communist mainland.  I would like to see them invade as the U.S. would be here in no time.....by their agreement signed.

You really want to see the Peoples' Republic of China invade the Republic of China ?

Look, we all know, Washington will spill the blood of American soldiers because of oil. There's no way the White House will risk the lives of American soldiers because, because a bunch of Chinese in Taiwan don't reckon they're the same as the Chinese in China. And indeed, why should NATO get it's soldiers killed for something that is nothing to do with America or Europe ?

You reckon that Taiwan shares a common heritage and language with China ?   ????
How about you accept that a bunch of Chinese left China and went to live in Taiwan. The Taiwanese, they're actually a bunch of Chinese living in an island called Taiwan. About half the Chinese in Taiwan are people who left China after 1945, or their parents are.

[tonbridgebrit]

12 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Because you can count on Trump to honor US military commitments?

Washington today is the same as it was previously.

The US government will spill American blood for oil, or whatever economic gain. There's no oil in Taiwan. Why on earth would Washington fight for Taiwan ?  If Washington was willing to fight for Taiwan, them Chinese in Taiwan would have declared independence for the Republic of China, Taiwan, ages ago.

Republic of China, that's what China (mainland China) was called prior to 1949. Republic of China and Peoples' Republic of China should simply call themselves "China". That would prevent the silly confusion that we see today.

There's only one China, there never will be two Chinas. There's only one America, there will never be two Americas. And yes, Washington is correct to fght a war to prevent a second USA.

[Fore Man]

I think it is likely...and an outcome that we all probably want to be achieved...that the two sets of Chinese populations and their opposing forms of national government can reach equilibrium through the workings of binational market forces.  These forces are already hard at work, achieving substantial business ties that bind the two countries together in highly successful commercial enterprises.  Now, PRC citizens are allowed to enter Taiwan and vice-versa. Arrive any time at Taoyuan Airport outside of Taipei and you’ll join lengthy waiting queues of passengers, many bearing Chinese passports. Regional dialects aside, such as Cantonese, Hakka and several others, the majority of citizens in each country speak and understand the same form of Mandarin.  They are all ethnically Chinese and each set finds great similarities in their respective cultures.  As Big China moderates over time...an outcome we can only hope for...tensions should reduce, allowing the two nations to jointly prosper and grow.  Nobody wants war on either side of the Strait.  Anything else is essentially posturing, jockeying and a surfeit of pride or arrogance momentarily at play.  Pray for continued peace.

[Tug]

If I were Taiwan I would be very cautious with this administration they cannot be trusted if Donald thought it would be to his advantage he would tell China to take Taiwan 

[IAMHERE]

Taiwan is a runaway/breakaway state. I've been taught America has a policy of not letting states runaway/breakaway/separate since 1860.  

[bristolboy]

1 hour ago, Fore Man said:

I think it is likely...and an outcome that we all probably want to be achieved...that the two sets of Chinese populations and their opposing forms of national government can reach equilibrium through the workings of binational market forces.  These forces are already hard at work, achieving substantial business ties that bind the two countries together in highly successful commercial enterprises.  Now, PRC citizens are allowed to enter Taiwan and vice-versa. Arrive any time at Taoyuan Airport outside of Taipei and you’ll join lengthy waiting queues of passengers, many bearing Chinese passports. Regional dialects aside, such as Cantonese, Hakka and several others, the majority of citizens in each country speak and understand the same form of Mandarin.  They are all ethnically Chinese and each set finds great similarities in their respective cultures.  As Big China moderates over time...an outcome we can only hope for...tensions should reduce, allowing the two nations to jointly prosper and grow.  Nobody wants war on either side of the Strait.  Anything else is essentially posturing, jockeying and a surfeit of pride or arrogance momentarily at play.  Pray for continued peace.

"As big China moderates over time..." Is that how you would describe China under Xi?

[Dumbastheycome]

3 hours ago, Fore Man said:

Well put!

All  would  continue with  tolerance if it were  not  for the  unwelcome  interference from?

[tonbridgebrit]

4 hours ago, Fore Man said:

I think it is likely...and an outcome that we all probably want to be achieved...that the two sets of Chinese populations and their opposing forms of national government can reach equilibrium through the workings of binational market forces.  These forces are already hard at work, achieving substantial business ties that bind the two countries together in highly successful commercial enterprises.  Now, PRC citizens are allowed to enter Taiwan and vice-versa. Arrive any time at Taoyuan Airport outside of Taipei and you’ll join lengthy waiting queues of passengers, many bearing Chinese passports. Regional dialects aside, such as Cantonese, Hakka and several others, the majority of citizens in each country speak and understand the same form of Mandarin.  They are all ethnically Chinese and each set finds great similarities in their respective cultures.  As Big China moderates over time...an outcome we can only hope for...tensions should reduce, allowing the two nations to jointly prosper and grow.  Nobody wants war on either side of the Strait.  Anything else is essentially posturing, jockeying and a surfeit of pride or arrogance momentarily at play.  Pray for continued peace.

Well, I agree with most of what you say.

What is Beijing's attitude ?  Beijing simply does not want Taiwan to declare independence. Taiwan is a de facto independent place, and Beijing will only attack Taiwan IF Taiwan declares independence.
So, Beijing will not attack Taiwan if Taiwan carries on being a de facto independent place.


You talk about the large numbers of mainland Chinese tourists entering Taiwan. Yes, I think this is a good thing. Also, a large number of mainland Chinese go to Taiwan and purchase real estate. And Taiwan is allowed to export goods to China with minimal or zero taxes. Notice that when America and Europe export goods to China, well, the goods are subjected to taxes. So, Taiwan benefits enormously from China.

And people think that China is bad to Taiwan ???

Okay, what about the people in Taiwan ? Some of them are pro-China, and some are anti-China. The ones who are against China. They don't actually like the flood of Chinese tourists in Taiwan. They're also against mainland Chinese buying real estate in Taiwan, because this is pushing up prices. And they don't like it when they notice stacks of cheap Chinese goods in the shops.
Do you reckon that these people are strange ??

[Fore Man]

19 minutes ago, tonbridgebrit said:

Well, I agree with most of what you say.

What is Beijing's attitude ?  Beijing simply does not want Taiwan to declare independence. Taiwan is a de facto independent place, and Beijing will only attack Taiwan IF Taiwan declares independence.
So, Beijing will not attack Taiwan if Taiwan carries on being a de facto independent place.


You talk about the large numbers of mainland Chinese tourists entering Taiwan. Yes, I think this is a good thing. Also, a large number of mainland Chinese go to Taiwan and purchase real estate. And Taiwan is allowed to export goods to China with minimal or zero taxes. Notice that when America and Europe export goods to China, well, the goods are subjected to taxes. So, Taiwan benefits enormously from China.

And people think that China is bad to Taiwan ???

Okay, what about the people in Taiwan ? Some of them are pro-China, and some are anti-China. The ones who are against China. They don't actually like the flood of Chinese tourists in Taiwan. They're also against mainland Chinese buying real estate in Taiwan, because this is pushing up prices. And they don't like it when they notice stacks of cheap Chinese goods in the shops.
Do you reckon that these people are strange ??

I see and understand your views.  It is understandable that Taiwanese would be upset at rising property prices generated by mainland buyers.  Real estate in Taipei for instance is already hugely expensive to acquire; making it even more costly because of an influx of foreign demand would surely upset local buyers striving to buy overvalued property, but then those selling stand to profit admirably, so I guess it works both ways. 

[car720]

19 hours ago, IAMHERE said:

Taiwan is a runaway/breakaway state. I've been taught America has a policy of not letting states runaway/breakaway/separate since 1860.  

It is not a breakaway state.  The legitimate government of China fled to Taiwan with the aid of foreigners in order to survive the onslaught of the Bandit King.  Civilized Chinese flee to Taiwan.

[GinBoy2]

On 5/27/2019 at 1:54 AM, Fore Man said:

Foolishness?  I think most casual bystanders would side with the lopsidedly smaller Republic of China whose people only want to remain free and left alone by the mainland political machine and propaganda apparatus. I don’t consider these wishes to be foolish in any way.  Your shallow attitude might change once you’ve been to Taiwan and befriended its people who are perhaps the most hospitable I’ve ever known anywhere. They deserve self-direction and national autonomy, just as any democratic nation anywhere else and not be threatened by a giant bully that happens to share a common heritage and language. 

Having lived in both Taiwan & China I totally agree.

 

How any Westerner would advocate the invasion of free democratic country, and Yes I do consider Taiwan a country not a province, by a totalitarian regime which suppresses it's citizens human rights, freedom of speech beggars believe.

 

Remember the regime in Beijing, currently has ~1 million Uighurs locked up in 're-education' camps.

 

...is that 'foolish' too?????

[tonbridgebrit]

1 hour ago, car720 said:

It is not a breakaway state.  The legitimate government of China fled to Taiwan with the aid of foreigners in order to survive the onslaught of the Bandit King.  Civilized Chinese flee to Taiwan.

Hello there.

I've noticed a whole load of your posts on ThaiVisa, and I agree with a fair number of your posts. But this time, with a grin, I'm going to say something negative about your post.

Okay, you putting up this post, you're part of the anti-mainland China group with regards to Taiwan. Now then, this comment, you've made a mistake, and I say it with a smirk on my face.


See, the main strategy of the pro-Taiwan guys is, is to bury or forget history, and to NOT focus on how Taiwan was actually created. And once people zoom into how Taiwan came about, well, Taiwan's legitamacy is questionable.



So, a quick bit of history here. Japan beat China in a war in the 1890s, and forced China to surrender the island of Taiwan. In 1945, Japan lost World War Two, and Japan was forced to hand Taiwan back to China. In 1945, China's name was "Republic of China", and Taiwan became part of Republic of China in 1945. You are totally correct, a bunch of Chinese in China lost the civil war and fled to the island of Taiwan in 1949. In 1949, China got it's new name, Peoples' Republic of China.  Taiwan carried on calling itself Republic of China.
So, from 1945 to 1949, mainland China and Taiwan were in a single country, called Republic of China. In 1949, China became PRC, Taiwan continued being ROC. It was civil war prior to 1949, and them Chinese who lost, they went to Taiwan. What this means, a war between the Chinese in China fighting them Chinese in Taiwan, well, it is simply an extension of the civil war.

Europe and America, and the whole world, prior to 1949, did not send soldiers to the Republic of China (mainland China) , to fight against Mao Zedong. It was a civil war. Well, why should Washington send soldiers today ? If it was wrong to have got involved prior to 1949, then surely, it's wrong to get involved today ??
 

[bristolboy]

1 minute ago, tonbridgebrit said:

Hello there.

I've noticed a whole load of your posts on ThaiVisa, and I agree with a fair number of your posts. But this time, with a grin, I'm going to say something negative about your post.

Okay, you putting up this post, you're part of the anti-mainland China group with regards to Taiwan. Now then, this comment, you've made a mistake, and I say it with a smirk on my face.


See, the main strategy of the pro-Taiwan guys is, is to bury or forget history, and to NOT focus on how Taiwan was actually created. And once people zoom into how Taiwan came about, well, Taiwan's legitamacy is questionable.



So, a quick bit of history here. Japan beat China in a war in the 1890s, and forced China to surrender the island of Taiwan. In 1945, Japan lost World War Two, and Japan was forced to hand Taiwan back to China. In 1945, China's name was "Republic of China", and Taiwan became part of Republic of China in 1945. You are totally correct, a bunch of Chinese in China lost the civil war and fled to the island of Taiwan in 1949. In 1949, China got it's new name, Peoples' Republic of China.  Taiwan carried on calling itself Republic of China.
So, from 1945 to 1949, mainland China and Taiwan were in a single country, called Republic of China. In 1949, China became PRC, Taiwan continued being ROC. It was civil war prior to 1949, and them Chinese who lost, they went to Taiwan. What this means, a war between the Chinese in China fighting them Chinese in Taiwan, well, it is simply an extension of the civil war.

Europe and America, and the whole world, prior to 1949, did not send soldiers to the Republic of China (mainland China) , to fight against Mao Zedong. It was a civil war. Well, why should Washington send soldiers today ? If it was wrong to have got involved prior to 1049, then surely, it's wrong to get involved today ??
 

First of all, who says they didn't get involved because it was wrong? Could be other motivations. And 70 years have passed. The situation is starkly different from what it was then. Back then, Taiwan was ruled by a brutal warlord, Chiang Kai-Shek.  Today, Taiwan is a genuine democracy where citizens are free to criticize the government without fear of losing "social credits" and can engage with the world and its opinions as they please. Whether it's worth fighting to defend them from an invasion by the increasingly Orwellian government on the mainland is another question entirely. But if waging war was to be decided strictly on moral grounds. there would be a very strong argument for waging it on behalf of Taiwan.

[tonbridgebrit]

1 hour ago, GinBoy2 said:

Having lived in both Taiwan & China I totally agree.

 

How any Westerner would advocate the invasion of free democratic country, and Yes I do consider Taiwan a country not a province, by a totalitarian regime which suppresses it's citizens human rights, freedom of speech beggars believe.

 

Remember the regime in Beijing, currently has ~1 million Uighurs locked up in 're-education' camps.

 

...is that 'foolish' too?????

Nobody is advocating Beijing attacking "Republic of China, Taiwan" today. What Beijing is saying is, IF Taiwan declares independence, then Peoples' Republic of China will invade Republic of China.

Republic of China is not declaring independence. It has not declared independence so far. From 1949 to the present day, Republic of China has not declared independence. Let's hope they never do declare independence. And if they do, do you reckon it will be a good idea if NATO soldiers are sent in, to risk their lives ?

If China invades Europe or America, yes, fight to stop the invasion. But one bunch of Chinese fighting another bunch of Chinese, let them do it. I reckon it's nothing to do with Europe or America, so, let them get on with it.

[bristolboy]

Just now, tonbridgebrit said:

Nobody is advocating Beijing attacking "Republic of China, Taiwan" today. What Beijing is saying is, IF Taiwan declares independence, then Peoples' Republic of China will invade Republic of China.

Republic of China is not declaring independence. It has not declared independence so far. From 1949 to the present day, Republic of China has not declared independence. Let's hope they never do declare independence. And if they do, do you reckon it will be a good idea if NATO soldiers are sent in, to risk their lives ?

If China invades Europe or America, yes, fight to stop the invasion. But one bunch of Chinese fighting another bunch of Chinese, let them do it. I reckon it's nothing to do with Europe or America, so, let them get on with it.

Why should America fight to stop a Chinese invasion of Europe but not of Taiwan? Because of a technicality about independence? Taiwan functions as a fully independent nation.. Morally speaking, that's enough to justify a fight. Of course, moral considerations are far from the only reasons to consider when going to war. 

[GinBoy2]

13 minutes ago, tonbridgebrit said:

Nobody is advocating Beijing attacking "Republic of China, Taiwan" today. What Beijing is saying is, IF Taiwan declares independence, then Peoples' Republic of China will invade Republic of China.

Republic of China is not declaring independence. It has not declared independence so far. From 1949 to the present day, Republic of China has not declared independence. Let's hope they never do declare independence. And if they do, do you reckon it will be a good idea if NATO soldiers are sent in, to risk their lives ?

If China invades Europe or America, yes, fight to stop the invasion. But one bunch of Chinese fighting another bunch of Chinese, let them do it. I reckon it's nothing to do with Europe or America, so, let them get on with it.

You didn't read all the posts.

 

Myself and @Fore Man were responding to the 'foolishness' comment in post #2, where he WAS advocating invasion

[tonbridgebrit]

17 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

First of all, who says they didn't get involved because it was wrong? Could be other motivations. And 70 years have passed. The situation is starkly different from what it was then. Back then, Taiwan was ruled by a brutal warlord, Chiang Kai-Shek.  Today, Taiwan is a genuine democracy where citizens are free to criticize the government without fear of losing "social credits" and can engage with the world and its opinions as they please. Whether it's worth fighting to defend them from an invasion by the increasingly Orwellian government on the mainland is another question entirely. But if waging war was to be decided strictly on moral grounds. there would be a very strong argument for waging it on behalf of Taiwan.

America and the rest of the world did not send soldiers into the Republic of China, prior to 1949, to fight against Mao Zedong. Why ? Well, this would have meant American and British soldiers fighting there, in a Chinese civil war. The Russians would probably have sent Russian soldiers to fight alongside Mao Zedong, and this would have created World War Three. Why on earth start World War Three, because one bunch of Chinese in China (Republic of China) don't like another bunch of Chinese in China ? There's was one lot calling themselves Communists under Mao Zedong, and one lot called the Nationalists under Chiang Kai Shek. It would have been catastrophic, a nonsense disaster, if the rest of the world (America, Britain, France, Russia, Japan) had of sent soldiers to fight them Chinese.

And today, we're seeing two groups of Chinese having their dispute, and planet earth is suppose to risk World War Three because they (them Chinese) want to fight each other ??


I love the bit when you talk about Chiang Kai Shek being a brutal warlord. You're correct. He butchered loads of Chinese communists in China prior to 1949. He fled to Taiwan in 1949, he lost the Chinese civil war. When he fled from mainland China to the island of Taiwan, was he "leaving a country, and entering into another country" ?
Or, was he leaving one part of the Republic of China, and entering another part of the Republic of China ??
If Mao had of attacked Taiwan in 1949, or 1950, would it have been part of the same civil war that was happening in mainland China ??

And indeed, when Chiang Kai Shek fled to Taiwan in 1949, he ran the place for a couple of decades. Most people don't know this, he was a brutal dictator during the early part of his time in Taiwan.

[bristolboy]

8 minutes ago, tonbridgebrit said:

America and the rest of the world did not send soldiers into the Republic of China, prior to 1949, to fight against Mao Zedong. Why ? Well, this would have meant American and British soldiers fighting there, in a Chinese civil war. The Russians would probably have sent Russian soldiers to fight alongside Mao Zedong, and this would have created World War Three. Why on earth start World War Three, because one bunch of Chinese in China (Republic of China) don't like another bunch of Chinese in China ? There's was one lot calling themselves Communists under Mao Zedong, and one lot called the Nationalists under Chiang Kai Shek. It would have been catastrophic, a nonsense disaster, if the rest of the world (America, Britain, France, Russia, Japan) had of sent soldiers to fight them Chinese.

And today, we're seeing two groups of Chinese having their dispute, and planet earth is suppose to risk World War Three because they (them Chinese) want to fight each other ??


I love the bit when you talk about Chiang Kai Shek being a brutal warlord. You're correct. He butchered loads of Chinese communists in China prior to 1949. He fled to Taiwan in 1949, he lost the Chinese civil war. When he fled from mainland China to the island of Taiwan, was he "leaving a country, and entering into another country" ?
Or, was he leaving one part of the Republic of China, and entering another part of the Republic of China ??
If Mao had of attacked Taiwan in 1949, or 1950, would it have been part of the same civil war that was happening in mainland China ??

And indeed, when Chiang Kai Shek fled to Taiwan in 1949, he ran the place for a couple of decades. Most people don't know this, he was a brutal dictator during the early part of his time in Taiwan.

You originally contended that there was no intervention in the civil war because it was "wrong.". Now you're citing practical considerations. That's another issue entirely.

[tonbridgebrit]

30 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Why should America fight to stop a Chinese invasion of Europe but not of Taiwan? Because of a technicality about independence? Taiwan functions as a fully independent nation.. Morally speaking, that's enough to justify a fight. Of course, moral considerations are far from the only reasons to consider when going to war. 

I'm trying to say, if we look at how Taiwan was created, how it came about, the legitimacy of Taiwan is questionable. Why should America fight to stop a Chinese invasion of Europe, but not an invasion of Taiwan ?

Well, that's because America and Europe are in NATO.  Republic of China, Taiwan, is not in NATO.

"Of course, moral considerations are far from the only reasons to consider when going to war." I would change that comment. Washington makes it look like that the wars are being fought for moral reasons, they're not, the wars are fought for economic reasons, like oil.

[car720]

1 hour ago, bristolboy said:

Why should America fight to stop a Chinese invasion of Europe but not of Taiwan? Because of a technicality about independence? Taiwan functions as a fully independent nation.. Morally speaking, that's enough to justify a fight. Of course, moral considerations are far from the only reasons to consider when going to war. 

and let us not forget as well the treaties that America has with Taiwan.

[car720]

1 hour ago, tonbridgebrit said:

Hello there.

I've noticed a whole load of your posts on ThaiVisa, and I agree with a fair number of your posts. But this time, with a grin, I'm going to say something negative about your post.

Okay, you putting up this post, you're part of the anti-mainland China group with regards to Taiwan. Now then, this comment, you've made a mistake, and I say it with a smirk on my face.


See, the main strategy of the pro-Taiwan guys is, is to bury or forget history, and to NOT focus on how Taiwan was actually created. And once people zoom into how Taiwan came about, well, Taiwan's legitamacy is questionable.



So, a quick bit of history here. Japan beat China in a war in the 1890s, and forced China to surrender the island of Taiwan. In 1945, Japan lost World War Two, and Japan was forced to hand Taiwan back to China. In 1945, China's name was "Republic of China", and Taiwan became part of Republic of China in 1945. You are totally correct, a bunch of Chinese in China lost the civil war and fled to the island of Taiwan in 1949. In 1949, China got it's new name, Peoples' Republic of China.  Taiwan carried on calling itself Republic of China.
So, from 1945 to 1949, mainland China and Taiwan were in a single country, called Republic of China. In 1949, China became PRC, Taiwan continued being ROC. It was civil war prior to 1949, and them Chinese who lost, they went to Taiwan. What this means, a war between the Chinese in China fighting them Chinese in Taiwan, well, it is simply an extension of the civil war.

Europe and America, and the whole world, prior to 1949, did not send soldiers to the Republic of China (mainland China) , to fight against Mao Zedong. It was a civil war. Well, why should Washington send soldiers today ? If it was wrong to have got involved prior to 1949, then surely, it's wrong to get involved today ??
 

I may not agree with what you are saying but I will defend to the death your right to say it.