Taiwan and U.S. security officials hold rare meeting amid China tension

[Morch]

4 hours ago, tonbridgebrit said:

I'm trying to say, if we look at how Taiwan was created, how it came about, the legitimacy of Taiwan is questionable. Why should America fight to stop a Chinese invasion of Europe, but not an invasion of Taiwan ?

Well, that's because America and Europe are in NATO.  Republic of China, Taiwan, is not in NATO.

"Of course, moral considerations are far from the only reasons to consider when going to war." I would change that comment. Washington makes it look like that the wars are being fought for moral reasons, they're not, the wars are fought for economic reasons, like oil.

 

"..... the legitimacy of Taiwan is questionable."

 

That's China's party line. Or your point of view. Sometimes hard to notice much of a difference. Either way, doesn't make it true or acceptable.

 

[GinBoy2]

@tonbridgebrit I'm confused by your logic

 

I'm very aware of the history of Formosa, which was, unlike the HK New Territories ceded to Japan in perpetuity, which is a whole other can of worms.

 

But the Taiwan as we now now know it, is a far cry from the Taiwan following the civil war in 1949.

 

It's very true that CKS ran basically a military dictatorship, which is why so many Taiwanese ended up in the US  going to college, and immersing themselves in the art of democracy.

 

After the end of military dictatorship, many of those Taiwanese returned home to create the democratic Taiwan we know today.

 

The difference between the democratic ROC and the dictatorial PRC is that one feels perfectly comfortable locking up a million Uighurs, restricting access to media, and suppressing human rights of it's citizens. The other, not so much, it actually has a rule of law.

 

Now you can argue about how the democratic ROC came into being, but then again, modern day Germany is a creation of Prussian military aggression, which after much turmoil resulted in todays Germany. 

 

So to use the post 1949 military dictatorship of Taiwan as a justification of your argument is specious

Edited May 28, 2019 by GinBoy2

[tonbridgebrit]

4 hours ago, GinBoy2 said:

@tonbridgebrit I'm confused by your logic

 

I raised the issue of Chiang Kai-Shek being a brutal dictator because somebody else correctly raised the issue. The issue was not raised to justify my point.

You want to talk about Germany. Germany was divided after World War Two, they're back to being a single nation. How about the two Chinas do the same thing ?

My first point is about the creation of Taiwan, how it actually came about. I live in South East England, what if South East England wants to declare independence ?  Break away from the UK, or Britain, or England ? Off-course, the London government can refuse permission, or they can grant permission. Just because you want to break away and form a new country, well, that doesn't mean to say that you can. This applies to every bit of land. If the Southern States in the USA want to break away, that don't mean to say that Washington must grant them permission. Washington is allowed to fight a war and not let them break away. And indeed, I would support Washington in such a war.

And what IF South East England breaks away, and London declares it as being illegal ?  If 40 years goes by, and the new South East England is a better place to live in than the rest of the country, does that make it's creation legal and legitimate ?  Off-course not, if it was illegal to break away, well, it will still be illegal in several decades times.

Edited May 28, 2019 by tonbridgebrit

[bristolboy]

1 hour ago, tonbridgebrit said:

You want to talk about Germany. Germany was divided after World War Two, they're back to being a single nation. How about the two Chinas do the same thing ?
 

Because in the case of the West and East Germany, East Germany's economy was dysfunctional. . And of course East Germany was a police state. Is Taiwan's economy dysfunctional? And it's not Taiwan that's the police state, is it?

[tonbridgebrit]

6 hours ago, bristolboy said:

Because in the case of the West and East Germany, East Germany's economy was dysfunctional. . And of course East Germany was a police state. Is Taiwan's economy dysfunctional? And it's not Taiwan that's the police state, is it?

I don't really want to talk about Germany, because the issue of Germany simply confuses the issue, and it's not the same thing.

The point I'm trying to make is, is "IF you are part of a nation, just because you want to break away, that does NOT mean that you must be given permission to do so". 
Let's apply that with consistency.  An area that's in the southern bit of the USA, or South East England. The capital city has the right to declare that the attempt to break away is illegal. And I back and support Washington and London, if they want to fight a war to stop whatever bits that want to break away. From that, I support Beijing's attempt to stop Taiwan declaring independence.


Actually, back to Germany. Prior to 1945, there's no way that the Berlin government would have given permission for any part of Germany to break away from Germany.

Edited May 29, 2019 by tonbridgebrit