47 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

You have done a great job of that, twisting the facts. Facts are facts.

What are the Cons/Lab? Sit on the fence!  How do you know that those voters are not brexit voters. Because they didn't vote Brexit. 

 You make it sound like a football game that someone scored 3 goals but the opponents scored 5 goals and claimed victory. You can only polish a turd for so long. As you well know, it seems.

Seems to me that you should look in the mirror and slowly repeat what you posted.  

28 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

Seems to me that you should look in the mirror and slowly repeat what you posted.  

Seems to me that a Brexiteers claiming a vote for Conservatives or Labour are a vote for Brexit is ludicrous given their constant bleating that both Labour and Conservatives have acted to stop Brexit.

 

But then Brexiteers need to claim the Labour and Conservative votes to make up their own numbers.

I wonder if the Green Party MEPs speak out against the travelling circus - moving the office from Brussels to Strasbourg every month? On 12 Mondays every year, 751 MEPs – flanked by their parliamentary assistants, political group advisors, hordes of ushers, drivers and civil servants, together with hundreds of files – move to Strasbourg. In a March plenary resolution on the EP budget, it was noted that the environmental impact is significant and stands at "between 11,000 and 19,000 tonnes of CO2 emissions" a year.

MORE MONEY spunked down the drain too!

4 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Seems to me that a Brexiteers claiming a vote for Conservatives or Labour are a vote for Brexit is ludicrous given their constant bleating that both Labour and Conservatives have acted to stop Brexit.

 

But then Brexiteers need to claim the Labour and Conservative votes to make up their own numbers.

I clearly said how do you know? Not that they are. obviously you either can't read or as usual making things up to suit your agenda.

 

"What are the Cons/Lab? Sit on the fence!  How do you know that those voters are not Brexit voters".

 

Even for the mentally challenged, people can see that the MP's from Conservatives and Labour have acted to stop Brexit, so are you living in la la land. If they would have followed the party Manifestos we wouldn't be where we are now. But it has done one great thing. Brought the Brexit party together, which will either be a catalyst to get the UK out of the EU on 31st October 2019 or will provide a new political party, championing the case for the UK out of the EU. Possibly both.

 

 

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

"60% voted for leave parties, Brexit, Tory, Lab, UKip ......... all leave parties.

Remain in the form of ChangeUK got 2.9%,  & LibDems 18.5%"

 

Precisely, it's easy to shape statistics to support a viewpoint - and this is evident by the inclusion of Green/SNP etc. in the remain statistics, ignoring the likely fact that a number of those who voted for these parties were less interested in brexit than the parties' other policies!

 

If not, they would have voted for the brexit party/ukip/change or libdems.

 

Agree entirely with your last para. - except the next GE will be a long time coming as a result of the eu elections.....  Politicians from both tory and labour are going to be very frightened and not stupid enough to call for a GE in the near future.

By the same token you could say that the absence of policies on anything but leaving the EU means that the Brexit Party's numbers cannot be relied upon as when (IF!!!) they put policies forward on Education, Health Service, Pensions & Benefits, Policing, Armed Forces, the Economy etc... People may not agree with them & switch their vote to a party that they do agree with.

 

 

E.g. What would you do if the Brexit party announced a policy that State Pensions would only be paid to people living in the UK? [I'm not saying for 1 minute they would, just using it as a (hopefully) extreme example of something that could  cause people to switch their vote from them).

 

You can't really compare a one-tune party with ones that have to put out complete albums... 

 

1 minute ago, Mike Teavee said:

By the same token you could say that the absence of policies on anything but leaving the EU means that the Brexit Party's numbers cannot be relied upon as when (IF!!!) they put policies forward on Education, Health Service, Pensions & Benefits, Policing, Armed Forces, the Economy etc... People may not agree with them & switch their vote to a party that they do agree with.

 

 

E.g. What would you do if the Brexit party announced a policy that State Pensions would only be paid to people living in the UK? [I'm not saying for 1 minute they would, just using it as a (hopefully) extreme example of something that could  cause people to switch their vote from them).

 

You can't really compare a one-single party with ones that have to put out complete albums... 

 

Agreed but consider that one-single party with one single intent is like  an ameba with one single cell, how can they possibly comprehend anything more complex ?

7 minutes ago, geoffbezoz said:

Agreed but consider that one-single party with one single intent is like  an ameba with one single cell, how can they possibly comprehend anything more complex ?

It is funny that's what was said about UKIP in 2014 and look how many million votes they got. So with a bit of working on and a manifesto I wouldn't dismiss them, just yet.

 

I see there are a lot of posters on here already putting them down, as non starters. Great, as with the 2016 referendum, remainers will be left gob smacked again.

21 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I clearly said how do you know? Not that they are. obviously you either can't read or as usual making things up to suit your agenda.

 

"What are the Cons/Lab? Sit on the fence!  How do you know that those voters are not Brexit voters".

 

Even for the mentally challenged, people can see that the MP's from Conservatives and Labour have acted to stop Brexit, so are you living in la la land. If they would have followed the party Manifestos we wouldn't be where we are now. But it has done one great thing. Brought the Brexit party together, which will either be a catalyst to get the UK out of the EU on 31st October 2019 or will provide a new political party, championing the case for the UK out of the EU. Possibly both.

 

 

If you catch me claiming that votes for Labour/Conservative in this election are anything other than an unknown wrt to Brexit then come back and accuse me of making things up.

 

References to ‘mentally challenged’ and ‘la la land’.

 

What’s that about LG?

....

Votes for parties campaigning for  Hard Brexit 35%

 

Votes for parties campaigning for no Brexit 40%.

 

 

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

Do you honestly think that the 'change' party or Lib Dems would win a GE?

 

In the same vein, do you honestly think that after the drubbing received by both the tories and labour at the EMP elections, they would either support the withdrawal of article 50 - or look for another quick GE?

 

 

1 hour ago, geoffbezoz said:

Yes I do because too many are against what has been currently negotiated. Just a matter of time before a new GE is called.   Further many of them are looking to losing their seats in the next GE irrespective of their parties. As I have said before politicians are like ticks on a pigs back, they will jump to wherever they can get the best feed. Therefore at the next GE in perhaps September this year , the whole dynamics of political alliances could well change.

Why on earth would either the tories or labour call for a GE - bearing in mind their recent drubbing in the MEP elections?

 

I do agree that many of them are looking to lose their seats if they do so - which is precisely why they have no interest in a GE in the near future!

 

Their best hope is another referendum.... and I suspect this will eventually happen.  Meanwhile, we can expect even more doom and gloom forecasts from the remainer establishment than pre-referendum in an attempt to sway public opinion ☹️.

 

Hopefully the electorate, having seen through this before the '16 referendum, will continue to do so during the next wave of 'remain' propaganda from the establishment and msm.

1 minute ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

 

Why on earth would either the tories or labour call for a GE - bearing in mind their recent drubbing in the MEP elections?

 

I do agree that many of them are looking to lose their seats if they do so - which is precisely why they have no interest in a GE in the near future!

 

Their best hope is another referendum.... and I suspect this will eventually happen.  Meanwhile, we can expect even more doom and gloom forecasts from the remainer establishment than pre-referendum in an attempt to sway public opinion ☹️.

 

Hopefully the electorate, having seen through this before the '16 referendum, will continue to do so during the next wave of 'remain' propaganda from the establishment and msm.

Hardly a drubbing when only 12.7% of eligible UK voters voted for the Brexit Party + UKIP.  Appreciate facts are difficult for Brexiteers to accept but try and accept that your fantasy will not necessarily turn into reality.

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

If you catch me claiming that votes for Labour/Conservative in this election are anything other than an unknown wrt to Brexit then come back and accuse me of making things up.

 

References to ‘mentally challenged’ and ‘la la land’.

 

What’s that about LG?

....

Votes for parties campaigning for  Hard Brexit 35%

 

Votes for parties campaigning for no Brexit 40%.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Seems to me that a Brexiteers claiming a vote for Conservatives or Labour are a vote for Brexit is ludicrous given their constant bleating that both Labour and Conservatives have acted to stop Brexit.

You are making it up. Happy. Where is it that I am saying all votes from labour or conservatives are Brexit votes. I did not.  I said how do you know that they are not.

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The graphic could not be more simple.

 

Votes to parties backing hard Brexit.

Votes to Conservative/Labour (backing we don’t know what)

Votes to parties backing Remain.

 

It makes no claim either way for the Conservative/Labour vote. If you feel Brexiteers can claim those votes, you’ll need to demonstrate why.

This wasnt a vote about either leaving or remaining though , it was about electing Euro politicians .

  This wasnt a one topic referendum .

A Brexit voter may have wanted a SNP, Plaid Cmyru , Green , Lab , Con person to represent them in the Euro parliaments . 

   This wasnt a vote  solely on either remain  or leave , and people may have voted for any of the above parties , even if they still wanted to leave .

  I am not saying they all did or didnt .

My point is that the euro elections are not indicative of anyones remain/leave view

Saying that , anyone who voted Brexit party clearly wants to leave  , people who voted for other parties may or may not want to leave .

3 minutes ago, geoffbezoz said:

Hardly a drubbing when only 12.7% of eligible UK voters voted for the Brexit Party + UKIP.  Appreciate facts are difficult for Brexiteers to accept but try and accept that your fantasy will not necessarily turn into reality.

Which percentage of eligible UK voters voted for the Change party ?

They were the only other party to stand on the one issue of leave or remain .

14 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Which percentage of eligible UK voters voted for the Change party ?

They were the only other party to stand on the one issue of leave or remain .

The big difference is that if you wanted to vote Remain (or at least for a 2nd Referendum), you could choose between voting Change UK, Lib Dem, SNP, UDP, PC, if you wanted to be sure of a vote for Brexit/No 2nd referendum, then your only choice (with any certainty) was to vote Brexit or UKIP.

 

Again, it's impossible to compare the parties whilst one of them is campaigning on a single issue and the rest are being judged (maybe more favorably) on a variety or issues.

 

 

As an aside, I'm surprised that nobody has pointed out the fact that a large percentage of the Brexit Party 31.6% votes would have been cannibalized from UKIP (Down 24.2%) so the overall gain would probably be more like 7.7% 

 

 

Hooray for Nigel Farage.  He is the British version of Donald Trump.  I hope he shakes the crap out of England, it needs it.

19 minutes ago, sanemax said:

This wasnt a vote about either leaving or remaining though , it was about electing Euro politicians .

  This wasnt a one topic referendum .

A Brexit voter may have wanted a SNP, Plaid Cmyru , Green , Lab , Con person to represent them in the Euro parliaments . 

   This wasnt a vote  solely on either remain  or leave , and people may have voted for any of the above parties , even if they still wanted to leave .

  I am not saying they all did or didnt .

My point is that the euro elections are not indicative of anyones remain/leave view

Saying that , anyone who voted Brexit party clearly wants to leave  , people who voted for other parties may or may not want to leave .

Woa boy, just a minute there.

 

While the observations you make are in many respects correct, Brexit supporters on this forum have for weeks been posting comments along the lines that this EU election was going to send a message regarding the nation’s mood re-Brexit.

 

Some are still claiming this a win for Brexit.

 

There are many who have a different view. I’m one of them.

15 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

It is funny that's what was said about UKIP in 2014...

Yes, in 2014 UKIP got 27.5% of the votes, and did even worse than the Tories yesterday with 3.3%

 

45 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

 

I see there are a lot of posters on here already putting them down, as non starters. Great, as with the 2016 referendum, remainers will be left gob smacked again.

Well if I were a vet I would gladly put Brexit down...

 

Though to be fair their votes went to Brexit but as Brexit is UKIP in all but name would rather waterdown the success so in actual fact the swing to Brexit was 31.6% - 24.2% = 7.4%

 

Yet the main remain parties Lib/Dems, The Greens, SNP And Change UK got a swing of 22.1% 

 

 

 

 

7 hours ago, stevenl said:

Which is why they are not included in the remain or leave group.

Really not difficult to understand.

 

 

I don’t recall “don’t know” being an option on the referendum ballot paper.

 

They have to swing one way or the other......

32 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

The big difference is that if you wanted to vote Remain (or at least for a 2nd Referendum), you could choose between voting Change UK, Lib Dem, SNP, UDP, PC, if you wanted to be sure of a vote for Brexit/No 2nd referendum, then your only choice (with any certainty) was to vote Brexit or UKIP.

 

Again, it's impossible to compare the parties whilst one of them is campaigning on a single issue and the rest are being judged (maybe more favorably) on a variety or issues.

 

 

As an aside, I'm surprised that nobody has pointed out the fact that a large percentage of the Brexit Party 31.6% votes would have been cannibalized from UKIP (Down 24.2%) so the overall gain would probably be more like 7.7% 

 

 

Not really.

 

Anyone who was determined that the uk should remain would have voted for the 'change' or Lib Dems parties.

 

I'm still suprised that remainers are arguing that only those who voted brexit/ukip were genuine leave voters, whilst endorsing the idea that those who voted green/snp etc. were firm remain voters ......

1 minute ago, dick dasterdly said:

Not really.

 

Anyone who was determined that the uk should remain would have voted for the 'change' or Lib Dems parties.

 

I'm still suprised that remainers are arguing that only those who voted brexit/ukip were genuine leave voters, whilst endorsing the idea that those who voted green/snp etc. were firm remain voters ......

 

 

My only surprise is that you are surprised.....????

1 hour ago, Sticky Wicket said:

I wonder if the Green Party MEPs speak out against the travelling circus - moving the office from Brussels to Strasbourg every month? On 12 Mondays every year, 751 MEPs – flanked by their parliamentary assistants, political group advisors, hordes of ushers, drivers and civil servants, together with hundreds of files – move to Strasbourg. In a March plenary resolution on the EP budget, it was noted that the environmental impact is significant and stands at "between 11,000 and 19,000 tonnes of CO2 emissions" a year.

MORE MONEY spunked down the drain too!

I would certainly appreciate an answer to this question - but doubt we'll ever get one....

 

When I was young I looked into the greens, and realised that their policies would only help the wealthy maintain their elite status.

 

Perhaps things have changed, but seeing as they have no problem with the "travelling circus" - I doubt it.....

7 hours ago, stevenl said:

Which is why they are not included in the remain or leave group.

Really not difficult to understand.

The Tories have always said they would deliver Brexit, making them a leave party. Really not difficult to understand.

Labour on the other hand...well who knows!

6 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I would certainly appreciate an answer to this question - but doubt we'll ever get one....

 

When I was young I looked into the greens, and realised that their policies would only help the wealthy maintain their elite status.

 

Perhaps things have changed, but seeing as they have no problem with the "travelling circus" - I doubt it.....

 

Refer attached link.

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/european-parliament-debates-scrapping-strasbourg-seat-for-first-time/

 

 

6 hours ago, SheungWan said:

But not Hard Brexiteers.

The graphic stated "anti-brexit" and "pro-brexit" it didn't saying anything about hard Brexit, soft Brexit, referundum etc

You have to admit that the Tories should be lumped into the pro-brexit camp.

 

3 minutes ago, Chelseafan said:

The Tories have always said they would deliver Brexit, making them a leave party. Really not difficult to understand.

Labour on the other hand...well who knows!

The reality staring you in the face evades you. 

35 minutes ago, Basil B said:

Yes, in 2014 UKIP got 27.5% of the votes, and did even worse than the Tories yesterday with 3.3%

 

Well if I were a vet I would gladly put Brexit down...

 

Though to be fair their votes went to Brexit but as Brexit is UKIP in all but name would rather waterdown the success so in actual fact the swing to Brexit was 31.6% - 24.2% = 7.4%

 

Yet the main remain parties Lib/Dems, The Greens, SNP And Change UK got a swing of 22.1% 

 

 

 

 

What strange words you have for a democratic referendum by putting it down. Luckily you are not. So people have a difference of opinion politically and they need putting down or are you implying something else.

 

Again where do the Conservative and Labour votes stand?? Change UK were the only remain party campaigning just for that like the brexit party. Greens and SNP were voting for other issues, so this is known as a typical statistical fudge.

3 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The graphic could not be more simple.

 

Votes to parties backing hard Brexit.

Votes to Conservative/Labour (backing we don’t know what)

Votes to parties backing Remain.

 

It makes no claim either way for the Conservative/Labour vote. If you feel Brexiteers can claim those votes, you’ll need to demonstrate why.

Other than the fact the Tories have spent the past three years trying to get to deliver Brexit..If that's not a pro-Brexit party then I don't know what is.

2 hours ago, Nanglon said:

I prefer 'remain' but understand we lost due I think partly to the divisive nature of 50% + 1 (ok, ok 1.7m votes) and also understand a 'leave' poster who said any referendum should only be 2 choices leave with deal, or leave no deal respecting the vote.

 

So in order to overcome the parliamentary impasse, why not re-run referendum, due to the continuing division but instigate a min referendum of 60% required to effect any future change / introduction of something (money where our mouth is) and anything less than 60% remain, the original vote stands, bad luck we all accept the 'will' of the people and move on.

 

So everyone supposedly more informed, can confirm their wishes to break us out of the paralysis.

Because then democracy is dead. We voted and the establishment didn't like the result so they'll get us to vote again and again and again until we wear people down and get what we want.

What happens if the result is the same ? What happens if remain wins? Another referendum? After all it's 1-1.

I don't mind another referendum as long as the questions asked are leave with deal or leave without a deal.

 

4 minutes ago, Chelseafan said:

Other than the fact the Tories have spent the past three years trying to get to deliver Brexit..If that's not a pro-Brexit party then I don't know what is.

It has been the contention of Brexiteers on this forum and Farage too, that the Tories have done everything they can to not deliver Brexit. 

 

You can't have it both ways.

 

7 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The reality staring you in the face evades you. 

Nothing like pigheadedness and denial to see you are missing the point.

 

Are the Tory party  remain party or leave party ?