Trump administration denies deceit in census citizenship fight

[webfact]

Trump administration denies deceit in census citizenship fight

By Andrew Chung

 

FILE PHOTO: T-shirts are displayed at a community activists and local government leaders event to mark the one-year-out launch of the 2020 Census efforts in Boston, Massachusetts, U.S., April 1, 2019. REUTERS/Brian Snyder

 

NEW YORK (Reuters) - The Trump administration denied accusations that it concealed evidence that its plan to add a citizenship question to the 2020 U.S. Census was aimed at boosting Republicans' electoral power, and said its accusers were making up a conspiracy theory.

 

In a letter to Manhattan U.S. District Judge Jesse Furman, who in January blocked the citizenship question from being used on the decennial census, the government called the allegations an "eleventh-hour campaign to improperly derail the Supreme Court's resolution of the government's appeal."

 

The conservative-majority Supreme Court is due to issue a ruling by the end of June on whether the question can be added in time for next year's census.

Furman has scheduled a hearing into the new controversy for Wednesday.

 

Several immigrant advocacy groups, among the plaintiffs in the case, submitted a filing to the Manhattan federal court on May 30 saying that during the course of their lawsuit the administration hid the fact that Thomas Hofeller, a longtime Republican specialist on drawing electoral districts, played a "significant role" in planning the citizenship question.

 

Hofeller concluded in a 2015 study that asking census respondents whether they are U.S. citizens "would clearly be a disadvantage to the Democrats" and "advantageous to Republicans and Non-Hispanic Whites" in redistricting, the plaintiffs said.

 

Hofeller, who died in 2018, went on to ghostwrite a draft letter from the Department of Justice to the Department of Commerce, asking for a citizenship question on the grounds it would help enforce voting rights, according to the plaintiffs.

 

In Monday's filing, the government said it did not rely on Hofeller's work and said the plaintiffs were "conjuring a conspiracy theory involving a deceased political operative."

 

A Justice Department spokesperson said in a statement: "This baseless attack on the integrity of the department and its employees is based on nothing more than fevered speculation."

 

Opponents have said a citizenship question would cause a sizeable undercount by deterring immigrant households and Latinos from filling out the forms, out of fear the information would be shared with law enforcement.

 

Democrats, immigrant advocates and demographers say such an undercount could deprive some communities of funds and political representation because the Census determines how the federal government distributes aid, as well as seats in Congress.

 

(Reporting by Andrew Chung; Editing by Sonya Hepinstall)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2019-06-04

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[ParadiseLost]

33 minutes ago, webfact said:

Hofeller, who died in 2018, went on to ghostwrite a draft letter...

That's what you call deadication...

 

[ParadiseLost]

As if Trump the illiterate is not bad enough - he has installed corrupt vermin in so many posts I doubt the USA will ever be whole again, it's like a cancer spreading.

[Tug]

Of course they are lying it’s the trump adm.what did you expect 

[elmrfudd]

yeah, why would we want to know how many citizens there are in every district in the country, that is just silly, and if you disagree.....

 

 

you are, of course, a racist

[Bluespunk]

5 hours ago, webfact said:

In Monday's filing, the government said it did not rely on Hofeller's work and said the plaintiffs were "conjuring a conspiracy theory involving a deceased political operative."

Ironically that claim, in itself, is a conspiracy theory. 

[Boon Mee]

19 minutes ago, elmrfudd said:

yeah, why would we want to know how many citizens there are in every district in the country, that is just silly, and if you disagree.....

 

 

you are, of course, a racist

Or a Fascist. 

Both words have no meaning today. 

[Chomper Higgot]

24 minutes ago, elmrfudd said:

yeah, why would we want to know how many citizens there are in every district in the country, that is just silly, and if you disagree.....

 

 

you are, of course, a racist

What does the Constitution say about the census and who should be counted?

[elmrfudd]

3 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

28 minutes ago, elmrfudd said:

yeah, why would we want to know how many citizens there are in every district in the country, that is just silly, and if you disagree.....

 

 

you are, of course, a racist

What does the Constitution say about the census and who should be counted?

Congress codified earlier census acts and all other statutes authorizing the decennial census as Title 13, U.S. Code. Title 13, U.S. Code, does not specify which subjects or questions are to be included in the decennial census. However, it does require the Census Bureau to notify Congress of general census subjects to be addressed 3 years before the decennial census and the actual questions to be asked 2 years before the decennial census.

 

On numerous occasions, the courts have said the Constitution gives Congress the authority to collect statistics in the census. As early as 1870, the Supreme Court characterized as unquestionable the power of Congress to require both an enumeration and the collection of statistics in the census. The Legal Tender Cases, Tex.1870; 12 Wall., U.S., 457, 536, 20 L.Ed. 287. In 1901, a District Court said the Constitution's census clause (Art. 1, Sec. 2, Clause 3) is not limited to a headcount of the population and "does not prohibit the gathering of other statistics, if 'necessary and proper,' for the intelligent exercise of other powers enumerated in the constitution, and in such case there could be no objection to acquiring this information through the same machinery by which the population is enumerated." United States v. Moriarity, 106 F. 886, 891 (S.D.N.Y.1901).

 

https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/decennial-census/about/census-constitution.html

 

[Chomper Higgot]

13 minutes ago, elmrfudd said:

Congress codified earlier census acts and all other statutes authorizing the decennial census as Title 13, U.S. Code. Title 13, U.S. Code, does not specify which subjects or questions are to be included in the decennial census. However, it does require the Census Bureau to notify Congress of general census subjects to be addressed 3 years before the decennial census and the actual questions to be asked 2 years before the decennial census.

 

On numerous occasions, the courts have said the Constitution gives Congress the authority to collect statistics in the census. As early as 1870, the Supreme Court characterized as unquestionable the power of Congress to require both an enumeration and the collection of statistics in the census. The Legal Tender Cases, Tex.1870; 12 Wall., U.S., 457, 536, 20 L.Ed. 287. In 1901, a District Court said the Constitution's census clause (Art. 1, Sec. 2, Clause 3) is not limited to a headcount of the population and "does not prohibit the gathering of other statistics, if 'necessary and proper,' for the intelligent exercise of other powers enumerated in the constitution, and in such case there could be no objection to acquiring this information through the same machinery by which the population is enumerated." United States v. Moriarity, 106 F. 886, 891 (S.D.N.Y.1901).

 

https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/decennial-census/about/census-constitution.html

 

 (Art. 1, Sec. 2, Clause 3) is not limited to a headcount of the population

 

Now where does the Constitution say 'the population' is only comprised of citizens?

 

 

Don't waste too much time looking.

Edited June 4, 2019 by Chomper Higgot

[elmrfudd]

3 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

16 minutes ago, elmrfudd said:

Congress codified earlier census acts and all other statutes authorizing the decennial census as Title 13, U.S. Code. Title 13, U.S. Code, does not specify which subjects or questions are to be included in the decennial census. However, it does require the Census Bureau to notify Congress of general census subjects to be addressed 3 years before the decennial census and the actual questions to be asked 2 years before the decennial census.

 

On numerous occasions, the courts have said the Constitution gives Congress the authority to collect statistics in the census. As early as 1870, the Supreme Court characterized as unquestionable the power of Congress to require both an enumeration and the collection of statistics in the census. The Legal Tender Cases, Tex.1870; 12 Wall., U.S., 457, 536, 20 L.Ed. 287. In 1901, a District Court said the Constitution's census clause (Art. 1, Sec. 2, Clause 3) is not limited to a headcount of the population and "does not prohibit the gathering of other statistics, if 'necessary and proper,' for the intelligent exercise of other powers enumerated in the constitution, and in such case there could be no objection to acquiring this information through the same machinery by which the population is enumerated." United States v. Moriarity, 106 F. 886, 891 (S.D.N.Y.1901).

 

https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/decennial-census/about/census-constitution.html

 

 (Art. 1, Sec. 2, Clause 3) is not limited to a headcount of the population

 

Now where does the Constitution say 'the population' is only comprised of citizens?

 

 

Don't waste too much time looking.

Edited 2 minutes ago by Chomper Higgot

well, since this question has been asked before on censuses and it clearly states: 

 

"a District Court said the Constitution's census clause (Art. 1, Sec. 2, Clause 3) is not limited to a headcount of the population and "does not prohibit the gathering of other statistics, if 'necessary and proper,' for the intelligent exercise of other powers enumerated in the constitution, and in such case there could be no objection to acquiring this information through the same machinery by which the population is enumerated."

 

 

do you need any further explanation? or do you need time to comprehend what the term "gathering of other statistics mean"?

 

or does it offend you that it would be a good statistic to know just how many actual citizens there are?

[ParadiseLost]

1 hour ago, elmrfudd said:

yeah, why would we want to know how many citizens there are in every district in the country, that is just silly, and if you disagree...

 

you are, of course, a racist

The only reason the information is wanted is because it is assumed only non-white individuals are non-citizens...

 

Which is, of course, racist.

Edited June 4, 2019 by ParadiseLost

[Emdog]

The deceitful are denying deceit. That's rich

[elmrfudd]

2 minutes ago, ParadiseLost said:

1 hour ago, elmrfudd said:

yeah, why would we want to know how many citizens there are in every district in the country, that is just silly, and if you disagree...

 

you are, of course, a racist

The only reason the information is wanted is because it is assumed only non-white individuals are non-citizens...

 

Which is, of course, racist.

do you have anything other than an uninformed opinion that shows this is true, or are you just being purposely obtuse?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 hour ago, elmrfudd said:

yeah, why would we want to know how many citizens there are in every district in the country, that is just silly, and if you disagree.....

 

 

Trump and Co. don't mainly want to know how many citizens are in every district. I'm sure Trump could care less.

 

By including a citizenship question on the Census, what Trump and Co. do want to do is deter Hispanics and other immigrants (ohhh...who often tend to register as Democrats and not Republicans) from participating in the Census, and thus diminish their representation in Congress.

 

Ohh....and, as a show of their (lack of) good faith that this whole thing isn't a political ploy aimed at benefiting Republic election prospects, the Trump Justice Department and Commerce Department are refusing to hand over documents to the Congressional committee that's investigating the issue, and thus are being threatened with a contempt of Congress vote.

 

 

 

Edited June 4, 2019 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[ParadiseLost]

16 minutes ago, elmrfudd said:

do you have anything other than an uninformed opinion that shows this is true, or are you just being purposely obtuse?

Erm just about every policy move, or statement coming out of his administration.

[elmrfudd]

6 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

1 hour ago, elmrfudd said:

yeah, why would we want to know how many citizens there are in every district in the country, that is just silly, and if you disagree.....

 

 

Trump and Co. don't mainly want to know how many citizens are in every district. I'm sure Trump could care less.

 

By including a citizenship question on the Census, what Trump and Co. do want to do is deter Hispanics and other immigrants (ohhh...who often tend to register as Democrats and not Republicans) from participating in the Census, and thus diminish their representation in Congress.

so you pretend to know what a person thinks or his motives are, because .....?

 

this question has been asked before without all the ridiculous assumptions you

are making, but somehow now you pretend to know it is racially motivated.

 

you do know only citizens can vote right? or do want that to change?

 

 

[elmrfudd]

4 minutes ago, ParadiseLost said:

21 minutes ago, elmrfudd said:

do you have anything other than an uninformed opinion that shows this is true, or are you just being purposely obtuse?

Erm just about every policy move, or statement coming out of his administration.

so, just an opinion then. got it

[bristolboy]

1 hour ago, elmrfudd said:

yeah, why would we want to know how many citizens there are in every district in the country, that is just silly, and if you disagree.....

 

 

you are, of course, a racist

The purpose of the census, first and foremost, is to find out how many people there are. And if you disagree with that, you are disagreeing with the Constitution. And of course, there is other evidence about Wilbur Ross, not just this latest news, that the purpose was to suppress the count. Which runs exactly counter to the intent of the Constitution. Why do you hate the Constitution so much?

[helpisgood]

44 minutes ago, elmrfudd said:

Congress codified earlier census acts and all other statutes authorizing the decennial census as Title 13, U.S. Code. Title 13, U.S. Code, does not specify which subjects or questions are to be included in the decennial census. However, it does require the Census Bureau to notify Congress of general census subjects to be addressed 3 years before the decennial census and the actual questions to be asked 2 years before the decennial census.

 

On numerous occasions, the courts have said the Constitution gives Congress the authority to collect statistics in the census. As early as 1870, the Supreme Court characterized as unquestionable the power of Congress to require both an enumeration and the collection of statistics in the census. The Legal Tender Cases, Tex.1870; 12 Wall., U.S., 457, 536, 20 L.Ed. 287. In 1901, a District Court said the Constitution's census clause (Art. 1, Sec. 2, Clause 3) is not limited to a headcount of the population and "does not prohibit the gathering of other statistics, if 'necessary and proper,' for the intelligent exercise of other powers enumerated in the constitution, and in such case there could be no objection to acquiring this information through the same machinery by which the population is enumerated." United States v. Moriarity, 106 F. 886, 891 (S.D.N.Y.1901).

 

https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/decennial-census/about/census-constitution.html

 

 

 

Your cite of Moriarity is interesting.

 

However, the current issue from the OP regarding the census seems to turn on whether the Dept. of Commerce acted in bad faith by wording one part of the census solely for the purpose of favoring one political party over another.  Surely, Moriarity does not stand for having granted unlimited discretion to the federal government.   

 

The Commerce Secretary's oath states the she/he shall "...well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office..." of a public servant of the USA.  That's not the oath of office, if there is such a thing, for an officer of the Republican Party. 

 

 

 

[elmrfudd]

4 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

1 hour ago, elmrfudd said:

yeah, why would we want to know how many citizens there are in every district in the country, that is just silly, and if you disagree.....

 

 

you are, of course, a racist

The purpose of the census, first and foremost, is to find out how many people there are. And if you disagree with that, you are disagreeing with the Constitution. And of course, there is other evidence about Wilbur Ross, not just this latest news, that the purpose was to suppress the count. Which runs exactly counter to the intent of the Constitution. Why do you hate the Constitution so much?

since when is asking the citizenship of a person on a census form a violation of the constitution in any way?

 

but then you have a firm grasp of the "intent" of the constitution, so you know there is nothing

in this question that goes against any intent of the constitution.

[ParadiseLost]

Of course gerrymandering is so much more accurate/effective when you know specifically which areas are likely to be sympathetic to democratic values.

 

In a supposedly democratic country... 

 

Edited June 4, 2019 by ParadiseLost

[elmrfudd]

2 minutes ago, ParadiseLost said:

Of course gerrymandering is so much more accurate/effective when you know specifically which areas are likely to be sympathetic to democratic values.

 

In a supposedly democratic country... 

 

so what exact "democratic" values do you think are being abused?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

28 minutes ago, elmrfudd said:

so you pretend to know what a person thinks or his motives are, because .....?

 

this question has been asked before without all the ridiculous assumptions you

are making, but somehow now you pretend to know it is racially motivated.

 

you do know only citizens can vote right? or do want that to change?

 

Census counts are different and separate from the legal right to vote.

 

The Census has ALWAYS in modern times counted not just citizens, but also non-citizen legal residents, and undocumented immigrants. Those Census tallies are used to determine federal funding levels to communities as well as to draw and apportion Congressional seats based on total population -- not voting eligible populations.

 

That's separate from the legal voting in elections where only citizens can vote in federal, state and most local elections.

 

If sizable numbers of non-citizen legal residents and undocumented immigrants, not to mention citizen immigrants, are pushed out of responding to the Census because they don't trust what the Trump Administration might do with their Census responses on the citizenship issue, those communities would tend to lose congressional seats based on a lowering of their Census reported populations.

 

That's what Trump and Co. want.... and it has zero to do with in their minds of protecting anyone's Voting Rights Act rights.

 

Sorry to disappoint you, but the Census is meant to count the total population in the U.S. -- not just the voting eligible population.

 

Quote

 

A study by Harvard researchers in March predicted the citizenship question would lead to an undercount of some 4.2 million people among Hispanics, costing their communities federal aid and political representation.

 

 

Edited June 4, 2019 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[ParadiseLost]

13 minutes ago, elmrfudd said:

so what exact "democratic" values do you think are being abused?

How does asking for citizenship details promote democracy?

[elmrfudd]

1 minute ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Census counts are different and separate from the legal right to vote.

 

The Census has ALWAYS in modern times counted not just citizens, but also non-citizen legal residents, and undocumented immigrants. Those Census tallies are used to determine federal funding levels to communities as well as to draw and apportion Congressional seats based on population.

 

That's separate from the legal voting in elections where only citizens can vote in federal, state and most local elections.

 

If sizable numbers of non-citizen legal residents and undocumented immigrants are pushed out of responding to the Census because they don't trust what the Trump Administration might do with their Census responses on the citizenship issue, those communities would tend to lose congressional seats based on a lowering of their Census reported populations.

where did I say the census and right to vote were not different?

 

If you are afraid to answer the census because you have broken the law and disrespected all

the legal immigrants in the country, you are saying illegal immigrants are entitled to have congressional representation

regardless of their illegal act. 

 

 

hey, why not just let in another 20 million illegals into California so they can have more congressional

seats and electoral votes.....or is that the intention all along?

 

 

[elmrfudd]

4 minutes ago, ParadiseLost said:

18 minutes ago, elmrfudd said:

so what exact "democratic" values do you think are being abused?

How does asking for citizenship details promote democracy?

you are the one saying democratic values would be abused, I asked how and you answer with a question.

 

I could ask how it does not promote democracy to know precisely how many citizens there are and how many

non citizens in every district. these are called statistics. what are you afraid of?

 

or is this part of the one world no borders, no sovereignty concept?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

5 minutes ago, elmrfudd said:

where did I say the census and right to vote were not different?

 

If you are afraid to answer the census because you have broken the law and disrespected all

the legal immigrants in the country, you are saying illegal immigrants are entitled to have congressional representation

regardless of their illegal act. 

 

 

hey, why not just let in another 20 million illegals into California so they can have more congressional

seats and electoral votes.....or is that the intention all along?

 

 

 

Congressional seat district and apportionment are decided by total population, regardless of status. That's the way it is, and has been in modern times.

 

But when election time comes, only citizens are legally entitled to vote.

 

That's the way it's been under both Republican and Democratic administrations. It's only the Trump admin now that's trying to push immigrant communities out of the Census. A tally that they're legally supposed to be counted in under federal law.

 

 

Edited June 4, 2019 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[ParadiseLost]

3 minutes ago, elmrfudd said:

you are the one saying democratic values would be abused, I asked how and you answer with a question.

 

I could ask how it does not promote democracy to know precisely how many citizens there are and how many

non citizens in every district. these are called statistics. what are you afraid of?

 

or is this part of the one world no borders, no sovereignty concept?

In a country made up 100% of immigrants it is strange there is such a large proportion obsessed with ...immigration.

 

Privileged white males trying so desperately to cling onto their white privilege...

Edited June 4, 2019 by ParadiseLost

[Blue Muton]

13 minutes ago, elmrfudd said:

where did I say the census and right to vote were not different?

 

If you are afraid to answer the census because you have broken the law and disrespected all

the legal immigrants in the country, you are saying illegal immigrants are entitled to have congressional representation

regardless of their illegal act. 

 

 

hey, why not just let in another 20 million illegals into California so they can have more congressional

seats and electoral votes.....or is that the intention all along?

 

 

You seem really angry about illegal immigrants. Does that include the one in the White House?