Stopped On Re-entry For Too Many Tourist Visas

[Martyp]

13 minutes ago, Khun Ed said:

Crazy Update In proceedings.  A lawyer who looked over the image said infact I overstayed 8 hours (which is true) and the words written in the passport simply states the fact I had an overstay of 24 hours. My GF says otherwise and so did the girls at the AirAsia counter - they said i would have 24 hours left in the country if i returned. Does anyone read Thai?

I would think that if it was an overstay you would have been fined.

 

The handwriting is terrible 

[BritTim]

59 minutes ago, Martyp said:

Admission is up to the discretion of the Immigration Officer

Understand that, under Thai law as written, immigration officials have no such discretion. The Immigration Act is clear that only the Minister has full discretion to admit or deny entry to individuals or groups. (I know that this differs from the situation in most other countries, but Thailand is supposed to follow its own laws not those of, for instance, the US.)

At the current time, as a practical matter, immigration officials are being allowed such discretion, and also to deny you the right of appeal which is also part of the law. That does not make it strictly legal.

[BritTim]

21 minutes ago, Khun Ed said:

Crazy Update In proceedings.  A lawyer who looked over the image said infact I overstayed 8 hours (which is true) and the words written in the passport simply states the fact I had an overstay of 24 hours. My GF says otherwise and so did the girls at the AirAsia counter - they said i would have 24 hours left in the country if i returned. Does anyone read Thai?

Run a mile from that lawyer. If immigration wanted to indicate you had an overstay, there is a stamp they use for that purpose.

[Martyp]

2 minutes ago, BritTim said:

Understand that, under Thai law as written, immigration officials have no such discretion. The Immigration Act is clear that only the Minister has full discretion to admit or deny entry to individuals or groups. (I know that this differs from the situation in most other countries, but Thailand is supposed to follow its own laws not those of, for instance, the US.)

At the current time, as a practical matter, immigration officials are being allowed such discretion, and also to deny you the right of appeal which is also part of the law. That does not make it strictly legal.

My understanding is that you can appeal but that it will take up to 5 days and you will be held in detention. Most people choose not to do that.

 

However the law is written real people have to make decisions based on actions on the ground. 

[GroupA]

I smell something fishy here. Has the goalpost been moved from problems with multiple tourist visas and getting found out to overstay. Generally short overstays are overlooked and nothing goes into the passport. If it's the number of repeated visa exempts sooner or later the IO will put a stop to it. Many people are posting about being refused entry. The entry was probably an alert that something isn't right. 

[elliss]

On 6/12/2019 at 11:30 AM, steven100 said:

apply for the correct visa and you'll be fine.

You cannot travel in and out of Thailand continuously on Tourist visas.

 We have to pay , to stay , good luck.

 

 

[Caldera]

1 hour ago, Khun Ed said:

Crazy Update In proceedings.  A lawyer who looked over the image said infact I overstayed 8 hours (which is true) and the words written in the passport simply states the fact I had an overstay of 24 hours. My GF says otherwise and so did the girls at the AirAsia counter - they said i would have 24 hours left in the country if i returned. Does anyone read Thai?

Unlike others who've commented, I think the lawyer is correct that it's a remark about an overstay of up to / less than 24 hours. They usually have a special stamp for this, but maybe not at Hua Hin Airport which doesn't have many international flights. The handwriting is atrocious, so I can only read parts of it myself - but the alternative interpretation makes no sense whatsoever.

[BritTim]

1 hour ago, Caldera said:

Unlike others who've commented, I think the lawyer is correct that it's a remark about an overstay of up to / less than 24 hours. They usually have a special stamp for this, but maybe not at Hua Hin Airport which doesn't have many international flights. The handwriting is atrocious, so I can only read parts of it myself - but the alternative interpretation makes no sense whatsoever.

I find the explanation that an airport with limited international flights had no facilities for normal processing of overstays to be quite ridiculous, with all due respect. Even at small land crossings, they have all the forms and stamps needed.

I agree that a remark that someone would only be allowed to enter for 24 hours (presumably just allowing transit to another international flight) is also quite strange. However, when immigration officials wish to pass signals to each other about unofficial denial of entry, it is plausible that they would write in a kind of code. For that, there would be no standard stamps, nor features in immigration's computer system to help.

[jacko45k]

8 hours ago, Martyp said:

I would think that if it was an overstay you would have been fined.

 

The handwriting is terrible 

Not for less than 1 day, at an airport. 

Edited June 13, 2019 by jacko45k

[lamyai3]

19 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

All this palaver because of people abusing the Visa Exempt set-up 

Too bad people are drinking the kool aid on all this. It's absurd to claim that visa runners and long term stayers on tourist visas were breaking any rules that existed at the time and are somehow responsible for the current crusade, which has more to do with paranoia, tit for tat measures and general xenophobia. 

 

"They can deport us, we can do the same to them" were the comments of the immigration chief back in 2014, after it was reported that 8000 Thais were deported from South Korea, while only 20 South Koreans were sent back the other way. A Thai friend told me at the time that the chief was particularly irked since one of his family members was among those ejected. Since then, efforts have continued apace to demonise those using visa exempt entries (and more recently tourist visas and most other categories). This escalated significantly after 2015 when it was revealed that one of the Erawan bombers had paid his way in at the border. Indeed, the current TM30 video from immigration goes as far as to explain why it's necessary to enforce the law on reporting any temporary address changes within 24 hours - to ensure that we're not sat at home assembling bombs! 

[Caldera]

7 hours ago, BritTim said:

I find the explanation that an airport with limited international flights had no facilities for normal processing of overstays to be quite ridiculous, with all due respect. Even at small land crossings, they have all the forms and stamps needed.

I remember consulates running out of visa stickers before and having to resort to using their old rubber stamps again. Things do break, get misplaced or run out.

 

If the intention was to limit the OP's time in country next time around, why state it in hours? Arrival and admitted until stamps only have a date, what if they arrive at noon? That makes no sense whatsoever and I've certainly never heard about anything like that. That an IO at Hua Hin Airport, of all places, comes up with such a novel idea is a stretch at best.

[BritTim]

14 minutes ago, Caldera said:

If the intention was to limit the OP's time in country next time around, why state it in hours? Arrival and admitted until stamps only have a date, what if they arrive at noon? That makes no sense whatsoever and I've certainly never heard about anything like that. That an IO at Hua Hin Airport, of all places, comes up with such a novel idea is a stretch at best.

I do not think there is any intention to stamp anyone in for 24 hours. My best guess is that the annotation is code for "only admit this passenger if they have an onward flight out of Thailand within 24 hours". Essentially, it is a heads up for other immigration officials at the entry points that enforce the unofficial rule that someone must be a "genuine tourist" (whatever that means) in order to enter using a tourist visa.

[freedomnow]

20 hours ago, Khun Ed said:

Yes that is a good option. thanks

SETV applications are pre-approved from tomorrow in UK by Thai immigration and no-one knows how many SETVs etc you have had and whether that will affect applying for tourist visas in the UK, new passport or not. So stay up to date with all application considerations.

 

Honestly, this is all over-blown, and so cheap/simple to find out a result vs going back to UK...multiple reports of people bouncing out at airports coming in from SEA airports (Singapore/KL/Vietnam)...then sent back to that origin airport due to whatver the IO can can up with...insufficient funds etc.....and they just come back in at a different land entry-point 2-3 days later....regardless of "no funds' comments/rejected at Swampy/DM in the passport with full page stamps and commentary by IOs in the passport.

 

Things are not quite hermetically sealed against TV runners quite yet, but they will be next 1-2 years I'm guessing....to guide them all towards the juicy Elite Visa payout, another visa or out the country.

Edited June 14, 2019 by freedomnow

[BritTim]

1 hour ago, FredGallaher said:

If you are going to apply for another visa in KL why not just ask at the Embassy? Why are you are asking for advice from people here?

The simple answer is that Thai embassies/consulates are a terrible source of information about Thai immigration processes. Getting the visa should be no problem, but Thai immigration at some entry points now reserves the (unofficial) right to abrogate your visa. This board is an excellent source of information about the actual practices being employed at the various entry points. You are misinformed if you think anyone at the Royal Thai Embassy in Kuala Lumpur has any idea of the circumstances under which your visa might not be honoured at Don Muang, or which land crossings are safe to use.

[Martyp]

So it sounds like there really is no answer to the OP's question. No one knows what the stamp and writing really means. He can attempt another entry or not. The worst that can happen is that he is turned back and he loses whatever money he spent trying to come back. If he is lucky he will get some clarification about his status. 

[Martyp]

Now I am of the opinion that his girlfriend should take the photo of his passport and go to Immigration inside the country and get an opinion from them. Maybe it would be best to go to an Immigration office at the airport since they are the ones who would see and interpret it if he returned to Thailand.

Edited June 14, 2019 by Martyp

[Khun Ed]

8 minutes ago, Martyp said:

So it sounds like there really is no answer to the OP's question. No one knows what the stamp and writing really means. He can attempt another entry or not. The worst that can happen is that he is turned back and he loses whatever money he spent trying to come back. If he is lucky he will get some clarification about his status. 

You are right. To recap I stupidly overstayed about half a day. Which I only realised last night. DM now waves people who have a 1 day OS straight through. A return flight to KL would not be the end of the world if I am not permitted. I just received this update from Assist Thai visa Services in Chiang Mai which is quite promising:

"

I double check again with another of my colleague to have a second reading and I confirm it only mean tat you have overstay but because it was not over 24h there will be no fine and no problem.

 

It won't be a problem for you to come back to Thailand especialy if you are granted a Tourist visa from the UK. "

 

[metempsychotic]

On 6/12/2019 at 11:37 AM, mfd101 said:

I wonder how many countries in the world one can live in for year after year on a tourist visa. Um, ...

Philipines is one. 

[Martyp]

24 minutes ago, Khun Ed said:

You are right. To recap I stupidly overstayed about half a day. Which I only realised last night. DM now waves people who have a 1 day OS straight through. A return flight to KL would not be the end of the world if I am not permitted. I just received this update from Assist Thai visa Services in Chiang Mai which is quite promising:

"

I double check again with another of my colleague to have a second reading and I confirm it only mean tat you have overstay but because it was not over 24h there will be no fine and no problem.

 

It won't be a problem for you to come back to Thailand especialy if you are granted a Tourist visa from the UK. "

 

If you plan to stay here as a retiree in three years you should be careful about maintaining a good record with Immigration. Or at least not having a bad record. You should be careful about your next steps. It’s not that I’ve ever heard about anyone having retirement problems because of a sketchy travel record before 50 years of age but if remaining in Thailand is important to you then be on your best behavior. Good luck.

[Mike Teavee]

5 hours ago, lamyai3 said:

Too bad people are drinking the kool aid on all this. It's absurd to claim that visa runners and long term stayers on tourist visas were breaking any rules that existed at the time and are somehow responsible for the current crusade, which has more to do with paranoia, tit for tat measures and general xenophobia. 

 

"They can deport us, we can do the same to them" were the comments of the immigration chief back in 2014, after it was reported that 8000 Thais were deported from South Korea, while only 20 South Koreans were sent back the other way. A Thai friend told me at the time that the chief was particularly irked since one of his family members was among those ejected. Since then, efforts have continued apace to demonise those using visa exempt entries (and more recently tourist visas and most other categories). This escalated significantly after 2015 when it was revealed that one of the Erawan bombers had paid his way in at the border. Indeed, the current TM30 video from immigration goes as far as to explain why it's necessary to enforce the law on reporting any temporary address changes within 24 hours - to ensure that we're not sat at home assembling bombs! 

So them specifically putting restrictions in place like only 2 land boarder crossings a year & closer scrutiny on anybody who has more than 6 entries per year (I'm in & out approx 20 times a year) had nothing to do with the perceived abuse of the VE system?

 

History shows they started on People (allegedly) abusing the ED Visa, then changed the ME TV Visa to make it harder to get, then clamped down on Visa Exempts and have now clamped down on Non-O & Non-OA visas... 

 

 

Q) What does deporting people have to do with it, we're talking about people being denied entry - Some mind blowing Kool-Aid you're sipping on there partner... 

 

Edited June 14, 2019 by Mike Teavee

[sanemax]

17 hours ago, Martyp said:

I am not sure what your point is. There is a six month multiple entry tourist visa that can be extended I think up to three months. Of course people leave when their visa expires. You can try to get a new visa and you can try to come back. Getting a visa still doesn’t guarantee you will be admitted into the country. Admission is up to the discretion of the Immigration Officer. A tourist visa is for temporary stay for the purpose of tourism. It is not intended for long stay to live in Thailand. That is where the discretion of the IO comes into play. What makes you a tourist? What makes you a long stay resident? From the reports I read on this forum and others it seems to depend party on the number of days per year you are inside Thailand and partly the number of entries and frequency of your coming and going. And then there is the question of how long is too long? If you are spending more time in Thailand than in your home country with no means of support then you are of greater chance to attract scrutiny and possibly be denied entry. That is about as precise as it gets. You can claim there is no limit on the number of tourist visas But go tell that to the OP and the many many people with complicated travel histories that are being denied entry.

 

The OP said he has been coming here for at least three years on multiple tourist visas. We don’t have the statistics of how long and how many visas distributed over that time period. Apparently he reached a limit in the eyes of the IO he last encountered. Maybe he will get back in on an ED visa. Maybe he will show up at a different entry and get lucky and be allowed in. I wish him luck. He is in a difficult but not uncommon position with Thai Immigration 

I.O's only tend to cause issues for people whom they expect are working , those that always leave and arrive during the week-end and school holidays 

[lamyai3]

2 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

History shows they started on People (allegedly) abusing the ED Visa, then changed the ME TV Visa to make it harder to get, then clamped down on Visa Exempts and have now clamped down on Non-O & Non-OA visas...

 

Q) What does deporting people have to do with it, we're talking about people being denied entry - Some mind blowing Kool-Aid you're sipping on there partner... 

Your history synopsis suggests you don't have much history here yourself. Every example you give is recent (the past five years), during which time there's been an observable change in attitude towards foreigners - my post explains why that might be so. 

 

In case you'd forgotten, you were talking about visa exempt entry abuse. The deportations were entirely to do with people on visa exempt entries, and predated the subsequent crackdown - the chief's comments at the time were indicative of the direction they were moving in. At that time the nationalities singled out were Korea, Russia and Vietnam but this widened out to include every nationality. In fact there's been a general move to restrict people on back to back visa exempt entries since around 2006, but using them was hardly "abuse" as it was always one of the acceptable methods to immigration, until they decided it wasn't.

[Mike Teavee]

3 hours ago, lamyai3 said:

Your history synopsis suggests you don't have much history here yourself. Every example you give is recent (the past five years), during which time there's been an observable change in attitude towards foreigners - my post explains why that might be so. 

 

In case you'd forgotten, you were talking about visa exempt entry abuse. The deportations were entirely to do with people on visa exempt entries, and predated the subsequent crackdown - the chief's comments at the time were indicative of the direction they were moving in. At that time the nationalities singled out were Korea, Russia and Vietnam but this widened out to include every nationality. In fact there's been a general move to restrict people on back to back visa exempt entries since around 2006, but using them was hardly "abuse" as it was always one of the acceptable methods to immigration, until they decided it wasn't.

You're correct, I only have 11 years of visiting Thailand (& only spend 1/3rd of my time there now) but do remember when I 1st visited in 2008 I could come & go as often as I liked (Once visited on 5 separate occasions in a 4 week period) with no concerns, nowadays there are reports of FIFO workers who have used VE for years having to get a Visa to spend their down time in-country as do people like myself who spend 5 days in, 10 days out.

 

Twisting the point somewhat, it was clear that the VE abuse I was referring to was people using them to effectively live in Thailand - Pretty sure the Korean deportations you were talking about was mostly Thai's visiting on a "holiday pass" & working (it doesn't take too much imagination to think that not only were they working illegally, but some were doing illegal work - i.e. "Massage" parlours etc...) 

 

IMHO, using VEs to Live in country, in a pattern that went:-

• 30 days VE,
• 30 day extension
• 1 (maybe 2) day border run
• Rinse & repeat

... is Abuse & I believe that's why they cracked down on it. 

 

Same with ED VIsas for people who weren't going to school, METV Visas for people who were using them back to back to live in-country Non-Os without the proper finances & now even forcing Non-OAs to have medical insurance.

 

 

Edited June 14, 2019 by Mike Teavee

[lamyai3]

3 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Same with ED VIsas for people who weren't going to school, METV Visas for people who were using them back to back to live in-country Non-Os without the proper finances & now even forcing Non-OAs to have medical insurance.

None of these were considered abuse until quite recently and the Thai authorities were quite happy about people staying long term using these options - it wasn't uncommon for an immigration officer to give advice on how to navigate the system. I remember one time receiving a compliment from immigration when extending a visa, for having a nice tidy set of back to back tourist visas over a long period with no overstays. I completely reject the suggestion that back then I or anyone else abused tourist visas by living on them long term, when those were the prevailing norms of the day. 

 

Every year we're seeing new classes of criminals that never previously existed, whipped up out of thin air by the authorities and their apologists - people who were on the right side of the system and following the rules before they weren't. At this rate I'm guessing it won't be long before we start hearing the phrase TM30 abusers bandied about. 

[bbi1]

On 6/12/2019 at 11:01 AM, Khun Ed said:

Since it's written just on your passport page and not on a Visa, I wonder what would happen if you were to accidentally scribble it out with black pen or somehow accidentally have a big tear in that page so that part is missing. Would anything happen? You could say your kid or nephew was playing with your passport lol

[Mike Teavee]

45 minutes ago, lamyai3 said:

None of these were considered abuse until quite recently and the Thai authorities were quite happy about people staying long term using these options - it wasn't uncommon for an immigration officer to give advice on how to navigate the system. I remember one time receiving a compliment from immigration when extending a visa, for having a nice tidy set of back to back tourist visas over a long period with no overstays. I completely reject the suggestion that back then I or anyone else abused tourist visas by living on them long term, when those were the prevailing norms of the day. 

 

Every year we're seeing new classes of criminals that never previously existed, whipped up out of thin air by the authorities and their apologists - people who were on the right side of the system and following the rules before they weren't. At this rate I'm guessing it won't be long before we start hearing the phrase TM30 abusers bandied about. 

We're agreed that they were once happy for people to visit many times & even stay long term on tourist visas/VE, but are not nowadays. The difference is, I believe it's because of a perception that too many people are abusing them to Live in the country & you believe it's because 1 family member of 1 senior IO officer got deported from Korea... Oh & apparently I'm the one drinking the Kool Aid ???? 

 

FWIW I believe I am a tourist in Thailand (despite having a condo & bank account there) but there is no hard & firm rules about what constitutes a "Tourist", so for the 1st time last year I got a Non-O ME despite knowing I would never spend more than 15-20 days on any 1 visit - You may have enjoyed a conversation many years ago with an IO at DM about your many entries to Thailand, but in the recent climate, I didn't & once was enough to convince me I needed to do something different about it (I travel for work & sometimes need to get a Visa for places that wouldn't look kindly on me being denied entry into a country (IIRC it's one of the questions on my SG EP renewal form) or having a "Naughty" stamp in my passport)

 

The "Rules" (Including TM30) have always been there, it's the application of the rules that hasn't, in the past 3 or so years (Maybe because of the Junta) they have noticeably been applied more rigorously & it only seems to be going one way, hence the OP is (and many others are) having problems. 

 

 

Edited June 14, 2019 by Mike Teavee

[bbi1]

On 6/13/2019 at 12:34 AM, lamyai3 said:

If you're back in the UK, a new passport would erase visible evidence of the visa history and the 24 hour remark, which would at least avoid higher level scrutiny at embassies and border points.

It erases visa history in the passport but not in immigration's computer system. When I came in with a brand new passport because the old one was expired, the 1st thing the officer said was "new passsport?" then looked at the computer and said "many entries into Thailand".

[lamyai3]

6 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

The difference is, I believe it's because of a perception that too many people are abusing them to Live in the country & you believe it's because 1 family member of 1 senior IO officer got deported from Korea... Oh & apparently I'm the one drinking the Kool Aid ???? 

Not only are you drinking it, you're purchasing it direct from immigration. I already made it clear that the 2014 crackdown and official comment was indicative of the direction they were moving in, not the cause. But as an example of the xenophobia and paranoia that exists within their ranks it serves as a good example.

 

It's quite true, immigration now have a perception that people have been abusing short term visas to stay here long term, but they didn't used to see it that way. There's even been comments on here recently where individual officers have apologised for all the hoops that have to be jumped through now, and they're not blaming the foreigners for it, they're blaming the generals. It baffles me that people are propagating and excusing this nonsense on their behalf. 

[lamyai3]

6 minutes ago, bbi1 said:

It erases visa history in the passport but not in immigration's computer system. When I came in with a brand new passport because the old one was expired, the 1st thing the officer said was "new passsport?" then looked at the computer and said "many entries into Thailand".

I'm not sure if they have access to the full records at the front desk. I've heard accounts previously where people have been taken aside and a supervisor is able access a more comprehensive history than the front line staff. Also unclear what kind of records are visible to them at border points. The perception of a clean passport is far from foolproof, but it would at least remove the written comment, and create a better perception when applying for new visas at regional embassies. 

[bbi1]

3 minutes ago, lamyai3 said:

I'm not sure if they have access to the full records at the front desk. I've heard accounts previously where people have been taken aside and a supervisor is able access a more comprehensive history than the front line staff. Also unclear what kind of records are visible to them at border points. The perception of a clean passport is far from foolproof, but it would at least remove the written comment, and create a better perception when applying for new visas at regional embassies. 

I don't know, but maybe they do. Or maybe the guy in his 50's or so who was my IO was a supervisor working at the front desk and had that access available to him.