Ireland warns British PM contenders against 'dumbing down' border issue

[puipuitom]

8 hours ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Neither Ireland nor the EU need to do anything about it. The GFA only lives through agreements. When the UK unilaterally decides to leave those agreements, it’s up to the UK to ensure the GFA through other means of new agreements. 

Only… the Eton Boys in the Tory government do not give anything about the interests of the Irish occupied territories… 

Edited June 22, 2019 by puipuitom

[CG1 Blue]

2 hours ago, petemoss said:

Quite the opposite. If the British government decide to leave with no deal then, automatically, the customs union disappears overnight. No customs union = hard border, no way round that. Hard border = breach of the GFA.

Ergo, the whole mess of a hard border would be entirely the fault of the British government. The EU will see it that way, the ROI will see it that way and, more importantly, the IRA will see it that way.

I disagree. 

 

Hard border = a return to the troubles, lives ruined, terrorist bombings, mass murders - oh, and protection of the precious customs union

 

No hard border = continued peace, a need to work on ways to tighten border controls over the coming years using technology etc., and a few smugglers getting away with stuff in the interim.  

 

Any sane person / government / EU official would choose the latter 

[CG1 Blue]

1 hour ago, puipuitom said:

10 hours ago, nauseus said:

Quite wrong. Ireland will be very much affected if no deal. Especially farmers, particularly beef exports.

The Irish beef exporters can replace the Welsh beef exporters. With a transit time of 18 hours by ferry to Cherbourg. By car from Dublin to Calais = 9 uur, 44 min by private car and 783 km. For a lorry a nice alternative, unless you have to drive then north to B, NL, D.

If it's not a problem for Ireland, why would they be preparing for an emergency bail out from the EU? 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/05/ireland-and-eu-discuss-emergency-funds-to-offset-no-deal-brexit

[puipuitom]

1 hour ago, CG1 Blue said:

If it's not a problem for Ireland, why would they be preparing for an emergency bail out from the EU? 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/05/ireland-and-eu-discuss-emergency-funds-to-offset-no-deal-brexit

Maybe, just very maybe there are some other slight problems, Brexiteers do not have even the faintest idea about ? ?

[petemoss]

6 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

I disagree. 

 

Hard border = a return to the troubles, lives ruined, terrorist bombings, mass murders - oh, and protection of the precious customs union

 

No hard border = continued peace, a need to work on ways to tighten border controls over the coming years using technology etc., and a few smugglers getting away with stuff in the interim.  

 

Any sane person / government / EU official would choose the latter 

No you don't disagree, you agree completely! 555

[petemoss]

8 hours ago, puipuitom said:

The UK could not come with any proposition except: "we are against"

Interestingly, the closest to being accepted was Ken Clark's customs union. A close second was the confirmatory vote which would only require 14 MPs to vote the other way to pass. 

Since the vote, a number of MPs, both Labour and Conservative, have been making noises about the need for a confirmatory vote to break the deadlock.

I predict that we will see PM Boris disappear off to Europe and come back with a deal that is essentially the same as May's deal apart from a slight change in semantics and suggest a confirmatory vote to pass it through parliament.

The second referendum is on it's way.

[Loiner]

1 hour ago, petemoss said:

I predict that we will see PM Boris disappear off to Europe and come back with a deal that is essentially the same as May's deal apart from a slight change in semantics and suggest a confirmatory vote to pass it through parliament.

The second referendum is on it's way.

So we get to Leave and then the Remainers get to have a second referendum. Fair enough, but what's the referendum about?

[nauseus]

13 hours ago, Bluespunk said:

Can’t find exact article I want, but these show Eire was the one who raised the border issue and the impact of brexit on the Good Friday Agreement. 

 

https://www.rte.ie/amp/972531/

 

https://amp.ft.com/content/73ac4a5c-d83f-11e8-a854-33d6f82e62f8

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/18/how-the-irish-backstop-emerged-as-mays-brexit-nemesis

 

I’ll keep looking for the one I want...

 

 

Well thanks for something. Yes, articles from the time in question would be good.

[Bluespunk]

4 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Well thanks for something. Yes, articles from the time in question would be good.

The ones posted are about the time. 

 

More importantly they disprove the “EU pushed the idea of a backstop onto Eire” myth 

Edited June 23, 2019 by Bluespunk

[nauseus]

2 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

The ones posted are about the time. 

 

More importantly they disprove the “EU forced the backstop on Eire” myth 

Yes, history is often rewritten. But these pieces actually neither prove nor disprove what the EU did. 

[Bluespunk]

Just now, nauseus said:

Yes, history is often rewritten. But these pieces actually neither prove nor disprove what the EU did. 

I disagree, though I can see why brexiteers might choose to refuse to believe the idea that Eire has the will and means to defend their own interests. 

[nauseus]

11 hours ago, puipuitom said:

The Irish beef exporters can replace the Welsh beef exporters. With a transit time of 18 hours by ferry to Cherbourg. By car from Dublin to Calais = 9 uur, 44 min by private car and 783 km. For a lorry a nice alternative, unless you have to drive then north to B, NL, D.

Not sure what you are talking about mate. More than 50% of Irish beef is exported to the UK at a value of about 1.5 billion euros. The value of Welsh beef (exported) is only 70 million max. 

[nauseus]

10 hours ago, puipuitom said:

Maybe time to read ?

The 'backstop' was a British proposal, not one tabled by Ireland or the ...

 

https://www.irishtimes.com/.../the-backstop-was-a-british-proposal...

1.  

Vertaal deze pagina

18 jan. 2019 - It was a UK proposal, not one tabled by Ireland or the EU, and reflected ... are with Britain rather than with Northern Ireland, moving the customs border ... 'If there is a hard Brexit we will definitely see gaps on shelves' · EU has ...

 

Yes. It says the backstop was a British proposal, that's it!

[nauseus]

40 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

I disagree, though I can see why brexiteers might choose to refuse to believe the idea that Eire has the will and means to defend their own interests. 

I didn't say and don't believe that either.

[Bluespunk]

6 minutes ago, nauseus said:

I didn't say and don't believe that either.

Fair enough

 

Many of your fellow travelers do...seems to be a blind spot when it comes to admitting the backstop is because of Eire's actions.

 

Refusing to let go of the vapid belief in the myth that the EU put it there to hinder the uk's exit desires.

Edited June 23, 2019 by Bluespunk

[nauseus]

20 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

Fair enough

 

Many of your fellow travelers do...seems to be a blind spot when it comes to admitting the backstop is because of Eire's actions.

 

Refusing to let go of the vapid belief in the myth that the EU put it there to hinder the uk's exit desires.

Different sides to the history of this....from different people of course. It all seems to have become far more of an issue since Enda Kenny left.

Edited June 23, 2019 by nauseus

[dick dasterdly]

9 hours ago, puipuitom said:

Maybe, just very maybe there are some other slight problems, Brexiteers do not have even the faintest idea about ? ?

Yes, that is certainly the 'line' promoted by remainers who clearly have no idea, when this is the best they can come up with....????

[Bluespunk]

8 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Different sides to the history of this....from different people of course. It all seems to have become far more of an issue since Enda Kenny left.

There might be different sides to history but the fact is, Eire brought the issue to the EU, not the other way round.

 

It was always an issue, but the tories failed to address it and that is why it became more and more prominent.

[dick dasterdly]

20 hours ago, Bluespunk said:

No, it’s not. 

 

Eire tried to reach an agreement with the U.K. after the brexit vote as they, unlike the tories, immediately realised the implications for the Good Friday Agreement. 

 

They even offered an ad hoc arrangement, where issues that affected it could be dealt with on a case by case basis. 

 

With the ineptitude that has been typical of the tories handling of brexit, they did nothing. 

 

Eire then went to the EU member states and ensured that a mechanism to ameliorate the consequences of brexit on the Good Friday Agreement was part of any deal. 

 

Eire is not the backwater noddy state that so many brexiteers portray it as, when they say the backdoor was forced on Eire. 

 

It is the result of Eire protecting its own interests and tory incompetence. 

 

11 hours ago, puipuitom said:

Maybe time to read ?

The 'backstop' was a British proposal, not one tabled by Ireland or the ...

 

https://www.irishtimes.com/.../the-backstop-was-a-british-proposal...

1.  

Vertaal deze pagina

18 jan. 2019 - It was a UK proposal, not one tabled by Ireland or the EU, and reflected ... are with Britain rather than with Northern Ireland, moving the customs border ... 'If there is a hard Brexit we will definitely see gaps on shelves' · EU has ...

 

 

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

Yes, history is often rewritten. But these pieces actually neither prove nor disprove what the EU did. 

 

33 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Yes. It says the backstop was a British proposal, that's it!

I apologise for posting so many previous posts - but I've still seen no evidence to support Bluespunks's original assertion.  Namely "Eire tried to reach an agreement with the U.K. after the brexit vote".

 

The links provided are remainer newspaper articles (long after the event), claiming this to be the case.....

[nauseus]

4 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

There might be different sides to history but the fact is, Eire brought the issue to the EU, not the other way round.

 

It was always an issue, but the tories failed to address it and that is why it became more and more prominent.

It also seems that the EU has used the Irish border problems to try force several other conditions onto the UK as part of this ridiculous "WAG" treaty, which are more in the interests of the EU, than just Ireland itself. The UK government proposals were all knocked back. There has been no goodwill and Varadkar has made it worse.  

 

 

 

 

[nauseus]

12 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

 

 

I apologise for posting so many previous posts - but I've still seen no evidence to support Bluespunks's original assertion.  Namely "Eire tried to reach an agreement with the U.K. after the brexit vote".

 

The links provided are remainer newspaper articles (long after the event), claiming this to be the case.....

Some of the articles claim similar but a unanimous history of the development of the backstop question is hard to find. The EU don't seem to have become too involved until 2017, though.

[petemoss]

4 hours ago, Loiner said:

So we get to Leave and then the Remainers get to have a second referendum. Fair enough, but what's the referendum about?

The "people's confirmatory vote" would ask the British people if they wished to accept the deal Boris brings back from Brussels or revoke article 50. It's the democratic way to resolve the deadlock on Brexit - take the decision out of parliament's hands as the government has singularly failed to deliver a Brexit that is in any way resembles the Brexit that was promised to them before the referendum.

[petemoss]

48 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

The links provided are remainer newspaper articles (long after the event), claiming this to be the case.....

So Brexiteers will only accept facts published in Brexiteer newspapers and remainers will only accept facts published in remainer newspapers. How divided and entrenched a nation we have become.

Both parties would do well to remember the line in Joe Cox's maiden speech to Parliament and which she is most remembered. "We have far more in common than that which divides us".

This is particularly applicable to Brexiteers attitude to Europeans and the EU.

[petemoss]

5 minutes ago, Loiner said:

1.    From the offset, we should note that this is an EU text, not a UK or international text. This has one source. The Brexit agreement is written in Brussels.

I didn't know "Brussels" was a recognised language. 555

 

Seriously though , your diatribe contains so many factual errors and mis-truths that it would really be a waste of time going through and correcting them all, you'd only declare the truth as fake news anyway.

 

Suffice it to say that the May deal was jointly composed and signed on to by both the EU negotiators and the British negotiators.

[Loiner]

5 hours ago, petemoss said:

 

I predict that we will see PM Boris disappear off to Europe and come back with a deal that is essentially the same as May's deal apart from a slight change in semantics and suggest a confirmatory vote to pass it through parliament.

The second referendum is on it's way.

 

4 hours ago, Loiner said:

So we get to Leave and then the Remainers get to have a second referendum. Fair enough, but what's the referendum about?

 

11 minutes ago, petemoss said:

The "people's confirmatory vote" would ask the British people if they wished to accept the deal Boris brings back from Brussels or revoke article 50. It's the democratic way to resolve the deadlock on Brexit - take the decision out of parliament's hands as the government has singularly failed to deliver a Brexit that is in any way resembles the Brexit that was promised to them before the referendum.

Make your mind up. You started with another 'deal' which would have a confirmatory vote to pass through parliament. So that's us out, regardless of the deal content. 

Then you wanted a second referendum, but we would already have left.

Now you call for a "people's confirmatory vote" before we leave? That ones been done to death here and it's not happening.

[Loiner]

1 minute ago, petemoss said:

I didn't know "Brussels" was a recognised language. 555

 

Seriously though , your diatribe contains so many factual errors and mis-truths that it would really be a waste of time going through and correcting them all, you'd only declare the truth as fake news anyway.

 

Suffice it to say that the May deal was jointly composed and signed on to by both the EU negotiators and the British negotiators.

Why not have a go - it's only your time you'd waste.

So the Merkel/May Surrender Treaty was written by British collaborators too? Only time will tell us who put what in there, but it does not look like many MPs had a hand in it. Fortunately it's been kicked out of the house three times and won't be coming back in a new wrapper. Saved by our parliamentary democracy - what a surprise.

[petemoss]

3 minutes ago, Loiner said:

Now you call for a "people's confirmatory vote" before we leave? That ones been done to death here and it's not happening.

I have called for nothing, I leave that to my elected MP.

 

It may have been "done to death" on a Thai expats forum, but the UK parliament is far from finished with it. It's gathering momentum in the house as the only democratic way to break the deadlock and leave MPs relatively unscarred, which is all MPs on both sides of the house have really been concerned about throughout this debacle.

[nontabury]

7 minutes ago, petemoss said:

So Brexiteers will only accept facts published in Brexiteer newspapers and remainers will only accept facts published in remainer newspapers. How divided and entrenched a nation we have become.

Both parties would do well to remember the line in Joe Cox's maiden speech to Parliament and which she is most remembered. "We have far more in common than that which divides us".

This is particularly applicable to Brexiteers attitude to Europeans and the EU.

 

The last sentence spoilt your post. Yes we have a great deal in common with our European neighbours, but definitely not with the E.u.

 We could have lived with the trading block called the EEC, a pact that was voted on by the British people. Unfortunately since that time,we have come to realise,we were conned by the political and elitist class, who all along intended to impose a political, and what many consider a non Democratic union on the unsuspecting people.

 

 

 

 

[Bluespunk]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

It also seems that the EU has used the Irish border problems to try force several other conditions onto the UK as part of this ridiculous "WAG" treaty, which are more in the interests of the EU, than just Ireland itself. The UK government proposals were all knocked back. There has been no goodwill and Varadkar has made it worse.  

 

 

 

 

The EU has taken into consideration Eire's views and supported Eire's interests.

 

The uk left it way too late to start thinking and acting, so Eire did what needed to be done.

[Bluespunk]

1 minute ago, dick dasterdly said:

A typical remainer response....☹️

 

Perhaps you should point out the link that proved your post?

I'm neither a remainer or british...

 

They all prove my point that Eire was the one that ensured the border issue was highlighted.