Thailand Blacklisted From Receiving New AIDS Drugs

[Dupont]

"Yes antibiotics are over prescribed. However, antibiotic resistance is caused by improper use of antibiotics like the patient not compeleting the prescribed cycle. That is due to a lack of proper patient education and patient non-compliance. Selling antibiotics over the counter compunds that problem in developing countries though the same problems exists to a somewhat lesser degree in deveoped countries. At present there is no vancomycin resistant superbug that cannot be handled by another line of treatment. It is possible one will evolve but it isn't here yet. "

Also, inferior products with insuficient active dose, causes resistance. Mostly caused by pirate medicine companies scrimping on ingredients and corrupt governments doing the same. Can a Thai company provide the consistency and quality of this drug and will the Govenment be able to guarantee this? Ask yourself that question every time you deal with a Thai Official and are asked to pass money under the table.

If every body took their medicine correctly, ie kept off the beer and drugs, and finished the prescribed course, resistance would occur at a highly reduced rate. = LESS PROFIT FOR CAPITALIST PIG DRUG COMPANIES!

Irresponsible patients have caused havoc down the years to the Anti Biotic stocks, causing a need for ever more development. Drug addict TB cases in the US brought about so much resistance to the stock of Anti-Biotics that the Governemt was considering locking up people to ensure they thook their drugs, and protect the safety of the wider public.

Of course though, their civil liberties were given a higher proiority than the chance that a drug resistant strain of TB could wreak death and destruction around the world.

[jbsears]

... the problem with expecting to profit off the sickness of the poor and removing the treatment when they don't/can't pay, is that if the problem explodes and spreads it's kind of hard to prevent it from coming over the fence to your side of town. Ultimately, treatment for this worldwide problem should come from worldwide subsidy.

Good idea but I can just not see the USA taxpayer or any others wanting to subsidise drugs for HIV+ people in Africa or the like.

This is exactly why drugs will never be nationalized or anything of the sort. A lot of American taxpayers don't even want to pay for poor people in their own country (eduction or health care). Why would anybody think they would want to pay for poor people on the other side of the world?

[garro]

I think you will find that, if you don't give drugs to these people in poorer countries they will find a way of coming and taking them. People will eventually grow tired of watching their friends and families die and take action. Inovations such as the internet has made it possible for even those in the poorest regions of the world to know that they are being screwed. This has led to growing resentment against the privledged West. The West will eventually realise that higher taxes is a small price to pay for their security and the privledge of living in a rich country. If more money was given to free medicine instead of guns and bombs the world would be a much better place.

[ChiangMaiAmerican]

This is exactly why drugs will never be nationalized or anything of the sort. A lot of American taxpayers don't even want to pay for poor people in their own country (eduction or health care). Why would anybody think they would want to pay for poor people on the other side of the world?

You're absolutely right about that one. Even when costs can be reduced through single payer systems as has been done in other countries with much lower mortality rates, the insurance companies and their allies in the US Congress block any efforts to reform the system. The US creates much of the healthcare innovation in the world and big insurance blocks access to those innovations for much of the American public. Something needs to change.

[Mid]

The West will eventually realise that higher taxes is a small price to pay for their security and the privledge of living in a rich country. If more money was given to free medicine instead of guns and bombs the world would be a much better place.

word

[jbsears]

The West will eventually realise that higher taxes is a small price to pay for their security and the privledge of living in a rich country. If more money was given to free medicine instead of guns and bombs the world would be a much better place.

word

I agree that the world would be a much better place then, but its not gonna happen anytime soon. The American voting population will never vote for more taxes for something they won't directly benefit from. Politicians won't get voted in by raising taxes to help foreign nationals.

[dogleg]

The West will eventually realise that higher taxes is a small price to pay for their security and the privledge of living in a rich country. If more money was given to free medicine instead of guns and bombs the world would be a much better place.

word

I agree that the world would be a much better place then, but its not gonna happen anytime soon. The American voting population will never vote for more taxes for something they won't directly benefit from. Politicians won't get voted in by raising taxes to help foreign nationals.

Unless they call it a "War on Something or other"

[Prakanong]

At least Bill Gates is putting his money where his mouth is for the likes of Malaria, HIV and TB

[dogleg]

The West will eventually realise that higher taxes is a small price to pay for their security and the privledge of living in a rich country. If more money was given to free medicine instead of guns and bombs the world would be a much better place.

word

I agree that the world would be a much better place then, but its not gonna happen anytime soon. The American voting population will never vote for more taxes for something they won't directly benefit from. Politicians won't get voted in by raising taxes to help foreign nationals.

Unless they call it a "War on Something or other"

Anyway, lets not make this a USA thing, that government is only as controlled by big business as anybody else's "Elected Representatives". The Junta here will no doubt find who is buttering their bread before too long.

[Dakhar]

Did Thailand really think that what they did would not lead to some type of retribution?

I do not agree with the retribution, and this degree of greed is sickening! A 200$ discount, that is freaking insult!

But, again did Thailand really think there would be no retribution?

[nick2k]

Without business and profit from previous drugs, there would be no new drugs of this kind for anyone at any price.

Not trendy, but it is true! Sorry

This is a typical excuse given to justify the extremes of capitalism which puts profits before lives. It wrongly assumes that if there is no wealth incentives that people would quit looking for cures for diseases. What a load of bulls**t.

New drugs would be developed without these greed driven multinational pharmeucitical companies. The fact that these companies have been allowed to hold the world hostage is a disgrace.

Explain how they would be developed please - I am not talking about primary research here but the develpment and getting them through all the trial, regulatory procedures etc to get to the market?

Many countris require the trials to have data from their own countries and will not accept data from other studies - who is going to run these trials?

Anybody can enter the market if they want - go ahead

The drugs industry should be nationalised (but not belonging to any one nation) and kept away from market forces. Not only would drugs end up costing less but there would also be less temptation to create new drugs which are practically worthless. The focus could return to helping people and not satisfying greed.

somebody already tried that route, and failed miserably in the last century. do you remember communism?

..tell me one major innovation that castro came up with? or how about mao, or stalin?

the fact of the matter.. greed breeds innovation.

thailand should learn to work with the inventors instead of trying to cheat them. inventors deserve a reward for their inventions.

inventors DON'T have to give out their inventions to ANYBODY if they don't want to. even if it means millions die.

if I invented something, and somebody tried to steal the idea from me, I would rather destroy the secret than give it to the thief.

evil, you say? cheating and stealing is evil too.

[Mid]

tough words .................

boot would quickly be on the other foot if you or your loved ones were affected .

[gummy]

Without business and profit from previous drugs, there would be no new drugs of this kind for anyone at any price.

Not trendy, but it is true! Sorry

This is a typical excuse given to justify the extremes of capitalism which puts profits before lives. It wrongly assumes that if there is no wealth incentives that people would quit looking for cures for diseases. What a load of bulls**t.

New drugs would be developed without these greed driven multinational pharmeucitical companies. The fact that these companies have been allowed to hold the world hostage is a disgrace.

Explain how they would be developed please - I am not talking about primary research here but the develpment and getting them through all the trial, regulatory procedures etc to get to the market?

Many countris require the trials to have data from their own countries and will not accept data from other studies - who is going to run these trials?

Anybody can enter the market if they want - go ahead

The drugs industry should be nationalised (but not belonging to any one nation) and kept away from market forces. Not only would drugs end up costing less but there would also be less temptation to create new drugs which are practically worthless. The focus could return to helping people and not satisfying greed.

somebody already tried that route, and failed miserably in the last century. do you remember communism?

..tell me one major innovation that castro came up with? or how about mao, or stalin?

the fact of the matter.. greed breeds innovation.

thailand should learn to work with the inventors instead of trying to cheat them. inventors deserve a reward for their inventions.

inventors DON'T have to give out their inventions to ANYBODY if they don't want to. even if it means millions die.

if I invented something, and somebody tried to steal the idea from me, I would rather destroy the secret than give it to the thief.

evil, you say? cheating and stealing is evil too.

In your amusing ramble about Stalin, Mao, Castro etc you neglected Adolf Hitler and his Nazi party. I seem to recall that his scientists and engineers were at the fore front of many items especially rocketry and germanology. Did not the Americans "spirit" many of them away to "steal" the secrets for their own gains? Or does stealing people and inventions that have the ability to inflict mass murder have more kudos than an invention that has the potential to save millions of lives ? Are I forgot, Americans can justify anything so long it is solely in their own interests and make money iirespective if millions die for not sharing because they are unable to afford it.

[Johpa]

Gotta look at the source of this information.

Its not a balance report, but an emotional outburst against the traditional enemies of the left, the USA, business and anybody with any money.

Without business and profit from previous drugs, there would be no new drugs of this kind for anyone at any price.

Not trendy, but it is true! Sorry

Not true since the VAST majority of R&D for AIDS meds are publicly funded ... not funded by Abbott Merck and Phizer etc

Not just AIDS drugs, most truly new and innovative drugs are initially finded by public money. Big Pharma spends the relatively small amount of their R&D budgets developing me too drugs for which there are less public funds available for R&D. Abbott, Merck and Phizer are primarily marketing companies, not research companies.

[ChiangMaiAmerican]

In your amusing ramble about Stalin, Mao, Castro etc you neglected Adolf Hitler and his Nazi party. I seem to recall that his scientists and engineers were at the fore front of many items especially rocketry and germanology. Did not the Americans "spirit" many of them away to "steal" the secrets for their own gains? Or does stealing people and inventions that have the ability to inflict mass murder have more kudos than an invention that has the potential to save millions of lives ? Are I forgot, Americans can justify anything so long it is solely in their own interests and make money iirespective if millions die for not sharing because they are unable to afford it.

As I recall Dr. Von Braun and company engineered an escape from your wonderful Soviet forces so he and others could surrender to Americans. As I recall they later voluntarily became US citizens as have a number of other scientists and inventors. Scientists and inventors still voluntatily come to the US and continue to become US citizens by choice. Hardly a theft.

At the end of WWII Germany the Nazi regime was defeated as were the forces of Imperial Japan. You seem to have conviently forgotten who were the aggressors in that war. I suppoe the deaths and expropriation of Jewish property was somehow justified. I suppose the invasion of Poland, France and the attempted invasion of Britian is somehow justified. Then there is the matter of Pearl Harbor, China and most of Southeast Asia. Of course the Thailand Burma railway was completed justified. The US could have easily followed the Russians and kept their portion. The US could have easily administered harsh punishment to Germany and Japan. At the end of WWII the US could have done just about anything they wanted. At that time the US was the only country in the world in possession of nuclear weapons. The US economy was intact and the US mainland undamaged. Instead the US rebuilt Japan and much of Europe and allowed them the right of self determination. The US isn't perfect particularly with the current administration running the show. But as to your accusation of "stealing" from Germany it doesn't hold water.

Edited March 14, 2007 by ChiangMaiAmerican

[nick2k]

Without business and profit from previous drugs, there would be no new drugs of this kind for anyone at any price.

Not trendy, but it is true! Sorry

This is a typical excuse given to justify the extremes of capitalism which puts profits before lives. It wrongly assumes that if there is no wealth incentives that people would quit looking for cures for diseases. What a load of bulls**t.

New drugs would be developed without these greed driven multinational pharmeucitical companies. The fact that these companies have been allowed to hold the world hostage is a disgrace.

Explain how they would be developed please - I am not talking about primary research here but the develpment and getting them through all the trial, regulatory procedures etc to get to the market?

Many countris require the trials to have data from their own countries and will not accept data from other studies - who is going to run these trials?

Anybody can enter the market if they want - go ahead

The drugs industry should be nationalised (but not belonging to any one nation) and kept away from market forces. Not only would drugs end up costing less but there would also be less temptation to create new drugs which are practically worthless. The focus could return to helping people and not satisfying greed.

somebody already tried that route, and failed miserably in the last century. do you remember communism?

..tell me one major innovation that castro came up with? or how about mao, or stalin?

the fact of the matter.. greed breeds innovation.

thailand should learn to work with the inventors instead of trying to cheat them. inventors deserve a reward for their inventions.

inventors DON'T have to give out their inventions to ANYBODY if they don't want to. even if it means millions die.

if I invented something, and somebody tried to steal the idea from me, I would rather destroy the secret than give it to the thief.

evil, you say? cheating and stealing is evil too.

In your amusing ramble about Stalin, Mao, Castro etc you neglected Adolf Hitler and his Nazi party. I seem to recall that his scientists and engineers were at the fore front of many items especially rocketry and germanology. Did not the Americans "spirit" many of them away to "steal" the secrets for their own gains? Or does stealing people and inventions that have the ability to inflict mass murder have more kudos than an invention that has the potential to save millions of lives ? Are I forgot, Americans can justify anything so long it is solely in their own interests and make money iirespective if millions die for not sharing because they are unable to afford it.

stealing is stealing. can't you understand that?

if you worked hard to built a house, and then someone came and killed you for it, is that right? supposing someone had a sick mother that needed some shelter, and they needed your house to shelter her from the rain. does that give them the right to kill you so that they can stay in it?

the western nations including america are the most generous people in the world. they don't deserve to be branded selfish and uncaring. when it comes to sharing, there is no one equal to their contributions.

stealing is stealing.

if the western nations didn't built their factories in other countries like thailand, they wouldn't have been able to steal the drugs in the first place. yet here we are, and you steal our secrets and tell us to <deleted>#k off as if we are your enemies. what gives? then, when we complain that this is not fair, you call us evil?

maybe we shouldn't have built the factories in foreign countries in the first place. what do you think?

personally, I feel that usa companies should not be building overseas. usa companies should be in the usa providing jobs to usa citizens.

if the drug factories were back in the western world, this issue of stealing drugs wouldn't be an issue. this image of an uncaring, unsharing western world would not be prevalent. frankly, foreign countries instead of putting down the western nations would be begging them for their help - showing as much respect as possible.

thailand would be treating us like many of the african nations ravaged by AIDS do - with respect ASKING us for our assistance. NOT as THIEVES demanding their rights to the drugs.

[jdinasia]

Without business and profit from previous drugs, there would be no new drugs of this kind for anyone at any price.

Not trendy, but it is true! Sorry

This is a typical excuse given to justify the extremes of capitalism which puts profits before lives. It wrongly assumes that if there is no wealth incentives that people would quit looking for cures for diseases. What a load of bulls**t.

New drugs would be developed without these greed driven multinational pharmeucitical companies. The fact that these companies have been allowed to hold the world hostage is a disgrace.

Explain how they would be developed please - I am not talking about primary research here but the develpment and getting them through all the trial, regulatory procedures etc to get to the market?

Many countris require the trials to have data from their own countries and will not accept data from other studies - who is going to run these trials?

Anybody can enter the market if they want - go ahead

The drugs industry should be nationalised (but not belonging to any one nation) and kept away from market forces. Not only would drugs end up costing less but there would also be less temptation to create new drugs which are practically worthless. The focus could return to helping people and not satisfying greed.

somebody already tried that route, and failed miserably in the last century. do you remember communism?

..tell me one major innovation that castro came up with? or how about mao, or stalin?

the fact of the matter.. greed breeds innovation.

thailand should learn to work with the inventors instead of trying to cheat them. inventors deserve a reward for their inventions.

inventors DON'T have to give out their inventions to ANYBODY if they don't want to. even if it means millions die.

if I invented something, and somebody tried to steal the idea from me, I would rather destroy the secret than give it to the thief.

evil, you say? cheating and stealing is evil too.

In your amusing ramble about Stalin, Mao, Castro etc you neglected Adolf Hitler and his Nazi party. I seem to recall that his scientists and engineers were at the fore front of many items especially rocketry and germanology. Did not the Americans "spirit" many of them away to "steal" the secrets for their own gains? Or does stealing people and inventions that have the ability to inflict mass murder have more kudos than an invention that has the potential to save millions of lives ? Are I forgot, Americans can justify anything so long it is solely in their own interests and make money iirespective if millions die for not sharing because they are unable to afford it.

stealing is stealing. can't you understand that?

if you worked hard to built a house, and then someone came and killed you for it, is that right? supposing someone had a sick mother that needed some shelter, and they needed your house to shelter her from the rain. does that give them the right to kill you so that they can stay in it?

the western nations including america are the most generous people in the world. they don't deserve to be branded selfish and uncaring. when it comes to sharing, there is no one equal to their contributions.

stealing is stealing.

if the western nations didn't built their factories in other countries like thailand, they wouldn't have been able to steal the drugs in the first place. yet here we are, and you steal our secrets and tell us to <deleted>#k off as if we are your enemies. what gives? then, when we complain that this is not fair, you call us evil?

maybe we shouldn't have built the factories in foreign countries in the first place. what do you think?

personally, I feel that usa companies should not be building overseas. usa companies should be in the usa providing jobs to usa citizens.

if the drug factories were back in the western world, this issue of stealing drugs wouldn't be an issue. this image of an uncaring, unsharing western world would not be prevalent. frankly, foreign countries instead of putting down the western nations would be begging them for their help - showing as much respect as possible.

thailand would be treating us like many of the african nations ravaged by AIDS do - with respect ASKING us for our assistance. NOT as THIEVES demanding their rights to the drugs.

LOL ... i think you need to do a bit of research on this topic Re: Africa ... and Re: stealing ... etc

You might also consider finances etc .... i know you live here on the cheap .... (legally? dunno) but one of the drugs listed that Thailand is using now ... was $2200 USD a year for treatment that would be 3.66 MONTHS of your income per year (at 40:1 USD). Since the average income for a Thai is less than $200USD a month (at 40:1) 2200.00 USD would be 11 MONTHS income per year. These companies know that this is not possible .. do they do something about it? no! Did they pay for the research? NO! Do they pay more for lobbyists than research each year? YES! get a clue!

ps ... I am not even going to GUESS what the average income of an AIDS patient has in Thailand!

Edited March 14, 2007 by jdinasia

[Huw]

stealing is stealing. can't you understand that?

if you worked hard to built a house, and then someone came and killed you for it, is that right? supposing someone had a sick mother that needed some shelter, and they needed your house to shelter her from the rain. does that give them the right to kill you so that they can stay in it?

the western nations including america are the most generous people in the world. they don't deserve to be branded selfish and uncaring. when it comes to sharing, there is no one equal to their contributions.

stealing is stealing.

if the western nations didn't built their factories in other countries like thailand, they wouldn't have been able to steal the drugs in the first place. yet here we are, and you steal our secrets and tell us to <deleted>#k off as if we are your enemies. what gives? then, when we complain that this is not fair, you call us evil?

maybe we shouldn't have built the factories in foreign countries in the first place. what do you think?

personally, I feel that usa companies should not be building overseas. usa companies should be in the usa providing jobs to usa citizens.

if the drug factories were back in the western world, this issue of stealing drugs wouldn't be an issue. this image of an uncaring, unsharing western world would not be prevalent. frankly, foreign countries instead of putting down the western nations would be begging them for their help - showing as much respect as possible.

thailand would be treating us like many of the african nations ravaged by AIDS do - with respect ASKING us for our assistance. NOT as THIEVES demanding their rights to the drugs.

OK for a newbie to jump in?

Nobody seems to have mentioned the liberties that Thailand took with the provisions for setting aside licensing on the basis of 'national emergency'.

The 'national emergency' in Thailand appears to be the fact that they would quite like to save a bit of money and shaft the foreigners at the same time. More rorts are evidently in the pipeline.

I have no great love for the drug companies who inevitably maximise their profits, but I am no lover of outrageous IP theft either. Thais rip everyone off and yet cry when they think they are getting a raw deal (eg the proposed aussie shrimp regs and the proposed European import regs).

Thailand lacks integrity. Which is a pity because in the global recession appears to be coming, they will realise at some stage that people have long memories. ironically, if they had taxed Thaksin at the rates that you guys and me have to pay, they would have lots of money for drugs.

Edited March 14, 2007 by Huw

[John K]

This is certainly one of the saddest threads that reflect the flaws in human nature and greed. Depending on where you stand you can clearly see that there are two distinct points of view and it is easy to say both are right and both are wrong.

From Thailand’s point of view the cost of medicine is just to expensive. Citing seniors making drug runs out of the USA just as frequent as we do Visa runs is just one example. Drug companies look to extend their patent to maximize profit and monopoly on a drug. The drug companies make countess billions of dollars profit each year and from the outside the profit is just too big to substantiate the cost of the drugs. Thailand looking to cut costs is no different than anyone else.

From The drug companies point of view they see Thailand as now the #2 most corrupt country in the region, ever widening difference in income between the rich and the poor with the bulk of the money controlled by a dis-proportionality small percentage of Thais. From the outside it appears Thailand would have ample money to pay the going price but the corrupt Thais would rather than give up their ill-gotten wealth, exercise the generic medicine option and basally not only steal from the poor Thais but now companies outside of Thailand.

[gummy]

In your amusing ramble about Stalin, Mao, Castro etc you neglected Adolf Hitler and his Nazi party. I seem to recall that his scientists and engineers were at the fore front of many items especially rocketry and germanology. Did not the Americans "spirit" many of them away to "steal" the secrets for their own gains? Or does stealing people and inventions that have the ability to inflict mass murder have more kudos than an invention that has the potential to save millions of lives ? Are I forgot, Americans can justify anything so long it is solely in their own interests and make money iirespective if millions die for not sharing because they are unable to afford it.

As I recall Dr. Von Braun and company engineered an escape from your wonderful Soviet forces so he and others could surrender to Americans. As I recall they later voluntarily became US citizens as have a number of other scientists and inventors. Scientists and inventors still voluntatily come to the US and continue to become US citizens by choice. Hardly a theft.

At the end of WWII Germany the Nazi regime was defeated as were the forces of Imperial Japan. You seem to have conviently forgotten who were the aggressors in that war. I suppoe the deaths and expropriation of Jewish property was somehow justified. I suppose the invasion of Poland, France and the attempted invasion of Britian is somehow justified. Then there is the matter of Pearl Harbor, China and most of Southeast Asia. Of course the Thailand Burma railway was completed justified. The US could have easily followed the Russians and kept their portion. The US could have easily administed harsh punishment to Germany and Japan. Instead the US rebuilt Europe and Japan and allowed them the right of self determination. The US isn't perfect particularly the current administration. But as to your accusation of "stealing" from Germany it doesn't hold water.

You my friend appear to be away with the Fairies and living in Mickey Mouse world. I think most people would "volunteer" to become citizens of another country if they feared for the wellbeing of there relatives. Further I fail to see where the dropping of 2 atomic bombs, murdering innocent civilians can not be called harsh punishment ! But still one could also argue the the expropriation of Palestine in order to create the Jewish State of Israel and the consequenetial difficulties in that region thus caused could also be considered a mainly American brainwave.As for America re-building Europe then you should educate yourself better rather than reading American published history books , written by Americans for Americans. So my friend, far from America being the worlds helpers they were the opposite and have now become one of the worlds worst aggressors, allowed free rein since the end of the cold war, well that is apart from the shambles in Vietnam when you thought that bombing everything and everyone was a cure for all ills. Still I guess nothing has changed from that philosophy - witness the ongoing shambles in Iraq and Afganistan - Oh those Americans, how they help everyone. Back to the topic and they help no one unless there is money in it for them. The gift to the world made by the likes of Sir Alexander Fleming and Louis Pasteur would not have happened had they been born in Mickey Mouse land.

[Prakanong]

Gotta look at the source of this information.

Its not a balance report, but an emotional outburst against the traditional enemies of the left, the USA, business and anybody with any money.

Without business and profit from previous drugs, there would be no new drugs of this kind for anyone at any price.

Not trendy, but it is true! Sorry

Not true since the VAST majority of R&D for AIDS meds are publicly funded ... not funded by Abbott Merck and Phizer etc

Not just AIDS drugs, most truly new and innovative drugs are initially finded by public money. Big Pharma spends the relatively small amount of their R&D budgets developing me too drugs for which there are less public funds available for R&D. Abbott, Merck and Phizer are primarily marketing companies, not research companies.

<deleted> - read that one book by Marcia Angell have you and think you are informed?

[ChiangMaiAmerican]

In your amusing ramble about Stalin, Mao, Castro etc you neglected Adolf Hitler and his Nazi party. I seem to recall that his scientists and engineers were at the fore front of many items especially rocketry and germanology. Did not the Americans "spirit" many of them away to "steal" the secrets for their own gains? Or does stealing people and inventions that have the ability to inflict mass murder have more kudos than an invention that has the potential to save millions of lives ? Are I forgot, Americans can justify anything so long it is solely in their own interests and make money iirespective if millions die for not sharing because they are unable to afford it.

As I recall Dr. Von Braun and company engineered an escape from your wonderful Soviet forces so he and others could surrender to Americans. As I recall they later voluntarily became US citizens as have a number of other scientists and inventors. Scientists and inventors still voluntatily come to the US and continue to become US citizens by choice. Hardly a theft.

At the end of WWII Germany the Nazi regime was defeated as were the forces of Imperial Japan. You seem to have conviently forgotten who were the aggressors in that war. I suppoe the deaths and expropriation of Jewish property was somehow justified. I suppose the invasion of Poland, France and the attempted invasion of Britian is somehow justified. Then there is the matter of Pearl Harbor, China and most of Southeast Asia. Of course the Thailand Burma railway was completed justified. The US could have easily followed the Russians and kept their portion. The US could have easily administed harsh punishment to Germany and Japan. Instead the US rebuilt Europe and Japan and allowed them the right of self determination. The US isn't perfect particularly the current administration. But as to your accusation of "stealing" from Germany it doesn't hold water.

You my friend appear to be away with the Fairies and living in Mickey Mouse world. I think most people would "volunteer" to become citizens of another country if they feared for the wellbeing of there relatives. Further I fail to see where the dropping of 2 atomic bombs, murdering innocent civilians can not be called harsh punishment ! But still one could also argue the the expropriation of Palestine in order to create the Jewish State of Israel and the consequenetial difficulties in that region thus caused could also be considered a mainly American brainwave.As for America re-building Europe then you should educate yourself better rather than reading American published history books , written by Americans for Americans. So my friend, far from America being the worlds helpers they were the opposite and have now become one of the worlds worst aggressors, allowed free rein since the end of the cold war, well that is apart from the shambles in Vietnam when you thought that bombing everything and everyone was a cure for all ills. Still I guess nothing has changed from that philosophy - witness the ongoing shambles in Iraq and Afganistan - Oh those Americans, how they help everyone. Back to the topic and they help no one unless there is money in it for them. The gift to the world made by the likes of Sir Alexander Fleming and Louis Pasteur would not have happened had they been born in Mickey Mouse land.

Nice tirade Mr. Troll. I guess you are to young to have heard of the Marshall Plan. I suppose Von Braun really wanted to surrender to the Soviet Army since he made such graat efforts to get as many of his people through the line to the American side. And since you obviously don't know me well, the partitioning of Palestine was a terrible injustice. I have argued that point since I was a university student. I have been called a Nazi for saying that. Now because of the partitioning that occured there is a serious problem because so many have been born there. They know nothing of their grandparents country of origin. They have also recently found that genetically the majority are Europeans wth no deep genetic roots in the Middle East. Solving the problem won't be easy. Neither side appears willing to compromise. A Jewish State in part of Germany would have been a more equitable solution. But the partitioning of Palestine in no way justifies what happened to six million Jews not to mention the others deemed inferior beings by the Nazis. In fact the ultimate partitioning of Palestine was a reaction to what was done to the Jews in Europe. Had they not been murdered by the Nazis it is unlikely the Balfour Declaration, British by the way, would have ever borne fruit.

Then there is sweet innocent Japan. America was at war. The A-Bomb saved American lives. Japan was a nation of Emperor worshipers. There is no way they would have surrendered without the loss of many more American lives had the A-bomb not been used. It is sad it came to that. Even after the Emperor decided to surrender there was an attempted coup by conservative members of the Japanese military. Of course Japan was lily white. They didn't launch a sneak attack on Pearl. They didn't attack China. They didn't invade every country in Southeast Asia. Imperial Japan Good. America BAD. They didn't torture and murder POWs and conquered civilians. No they treated them well with the utmost respect and kindness. Try telling that story to the Chinese or Koreans. I'm sure they will give you a warm reception and friendly applause just like the Chinese did a couple of years ago when Japanese government decided to try and revise the history of the Second World War.

Then there is the small matter of the World Trade Center. The Taliban never helped Bin Laden or offered him sanctuary. And of course the World Trade Center Attack is fully justified since it was against America. Even the Muslims who were trapped in the World Trade Center deserved it.

Iraq is a different matter. Had Bush not been allowed to steal the 2000 election Iraq would never have happened. Had Bush not been allowed to steal the election the focus would have been on Al Queda rather than on Iraq. Bush will no doubt run a close second to Richard Nixon as America's worst president if he doesn't surpass him.

Get off the drugs and learn something of history. America is not perfect but she is not the demon you try to make her out to be.

Edited March 14, 2007 by ChiangMaiAmerican

[Mid]

AIDS Healthcare Foundation 'Horrified' as Abbott Blacklists Thailand From New Drugs

In Response to the Thai Government's Recent Move to Issue a Compulsory License for Abbott's Kaletra, a Move Intended to Save the Lives of Its People, Drug Giant Refuses to Issue Any New Drugs in Country Already Hard-Hit by AIDS Epidemic

US' Largest HIV/AIDS Healthcare, Prevention and Education Provider Says Abbott's Cold-Hearted Move Punishes Poor People in Need; Underscores Drug Company's Greed

AIDS Healthcare Foundation (AHF), the US' largest HIV/AIDS healthcare, prevention and education provider, which operates free AIDS treatment clinics in the US, Africa, Latin America/Caribbean and Asia, today excoriated US drug giant, Abbott Laboratories for its heartless decision to blacklist the country of Thailand by withdrawing its new drugs' applications from that country's government review process -- a move which in essence deprives Thailand and its citizens of access to any new Abbott medications. Abbott's move came as a mean-spirited retaliation following Thailand's recent move to issue compulsory licenses on some lifesaving drugs, including Kaletra, an anti-retroviral drug manufactured by Abbott that is used in the treatment of HIV/AIDS. World Trade Organization (WTO) regulations include flexibilities and provisions that allow governments to issue compulsory licenses without consulting the foreign patent owner if the country deems it necessary and appropriate to protect the health of its citizens.

"This is a new low, and I am horrified that Abbott would deprive poor people in need of lifesaving medications, particularly for those living with HIV/AIDS, in a country as hard-hit by the epidemic as Thailand," said Michael Weinstein, AIDS Healthcare Foundation's President. "The Wall Street Journal recently ran a blistering expose on Abbott on the front page which revealed just how down and dirty this company gets to keep its market share and drive business to its overpriced drugs and products. In Washington, a congressional oversight committee is moving toward an investigation of Abbott's price gouging and policies. At the same time, Abbott has the hubris to blacklist a courageous country like Thailand simply trying to do the right thing for its people. Astounding."

After Thailand issued the compulsory license for Kaletra earlier this year, Abbott began negotiating price reductions with Thai officials. Thailand appeared to be willing to engage in negotiations, but Abbott would only take $200US off the $2,200US price (per patient yearly). It is estimated that with Thailand's compulsory license, a generic version of Kaletra can be produced for around $1,000 per patient yearly.

The initial impact of Abbott's move to block its new drugs from being approved for use in Thailand could be devastating. The urgent issue for HIV/AIDS patients revolves around the heat-stable form of Abbott's drug, Kaletra, (called Aluvia), which is currently in the process of being approved for use in Thailand. With today's decision, Abbott is likely to revoke the application for governmental approval for that drug in Thailand.

"Without Aluvia in the arsenal of drugs to fight HIV/AIDS, Thailand will now have to maintain expensive cold storage for the drug, and poorer infected populations, who often cannot afford refrigeration, will continue to go without access to any form of Kaletra," said Homayoon Khanlou, MD, AIDS Healthcare Foundation's Associate Director of Medicine. "With drug resistance a major concern for those living with HIV, consistent access to such lifesaving medications is crucial."

"It is our understanding that in issuing the compulsory license, the Government of Thailand acted in accordance with all international regulations, including paying a royalty to Abbott for all sales of generic Kaletra," said Terri Ford, AIDS Healthcare Foundation's Director of Global Advocacy. "AIDS Healthcare Foundation treats people all over the world in our free clinics, and we know how desperately these drugs are needed. I am saddened by this heartless move by Abbott, and urge the company to consider keeping their lifesaving drugs available to those whose lives are actually in need of saving in Thailand and elsewhere."

In the Asia-Pacific region, AIDS Healthcare Foundation currently provides free anti-retroviral treatment through its clinics in India, China and Cambodia, and is opening a center in Vietnam.

Source: AIDS Healthcare Foundation (AHF) - 14 March 2007

[nick2k]

In your amusing ramble about Stalin, Mao, Castro etc you neglected Adolf Hitler and his Nazi party. I seem to recall that his scientists and engineers were at the fore front of many items especially rocketry and germanology. Did not the Americans "spirit" many of them away to "steal" the secrets for their own gains? Or does stealing people and inventions that have the ability to inflict mass murder have more kudos than an invention that has the potential to save millions of lives ? Are I forgot, Americans can justify anything so long it is solely in their own interests and make money iirespective if millions die for not sharing because they are unable to afford it.

As I recall Dr. Von Braun and company engineered an escape from your wonderful Soviet forces so he and others could surrender to Americans. As I recall they later voluntarily became US citizens as have a number of other scientists and inventors. Scientists and inventors still voluntatily come to the US and continue to become US citizens by choice. Hardly a theft.

At the end of WWII Germany the Nazi regime was defeated as were the forces of Imperial Japan. You seem to have conviently forgotten who were the aggressors in that war. I suppoe the deaths and expropriation of Jewish property was somehow justified. I suppose the invasion of Poland, France and the attempted invasion of Britian is somehow justified. Then there is the matter of Pearl Harbor, China and most of Southeast Asia. Of course the Thailand Burma railway was completed justified. The US could have easily followed the Russians and kept their portion. The US could have easily administed harsh punishment to Germany and Japan. Instead the US rebuilt Europe and Japan and allowed them the right of self determination. The US isn't perfect particularly the current administration. But as to your accusation of "stealing" from Germany it doesn't hold water.

You my friend appear to be away with the Fairies and living in Mickey Mouse world. I think most people would "volunteer" to become citizens of another country if they feared for the wellbeing of there relatives. Further I fail to see where the dropping of 2 atomic bombs, murdering innocent civilians can not be called harsh punishment ! But still one could also argue the the expropriation of Palestine in order to create the Jewish State of Israel and the consequenetial difficulties in that region thus caused could also be considered a mainly American brainwave.As for America re-building Europe then you should educate yourself better rather than reading American published history books , written by Americans for Americans. So my friend, far from America being the worlds helpers they were the opposite and have now become one of the worlds worst aggressors, allowed free rein since the end of the cold war, well that is apart from the shambles in Vietnam when you thought that bombing everything and everyone was a cure for all ills. Still I guess nothing has changed from that philosophy - witness the ongoing shambles in Iraq and Afganistan - Oh those Americans, how they help everyone. Back to the topic and they help no one unless there is money in it for them. The gift to the world made by the likes of Sir Alexander Fleming and Louis Pasteur would not have happened had they been born in Mickey Mouse land.

your hatred of americans and america is so intense, it scares me.

[gummy]

In your amusing ramble about Stalin, Mao, Castro etc you neglected Adolf Hitler and his Nazi party. I seem to recall that his scientists and engineers were at the fore front of many items especially rocketry and germanology. Did not the Americans "spirit" many of them away to "steal" the secrets for their own gains? Or does stealing people and inventions that have the ability to inflict mass murder have more kudos than an invention that has the potential to save millions of lives ? Are I forgot, Americans can justify anything so long it is solely in their own interests and make money iirespective if millions die for not sharing because they are unable to afford it.

As I recall Dr. Von Braun and company engineered an escape from your wonderful Soviet forces so he and others could surrender to Americans. As I recall they later voluntarily became US citizens as have a number of other scientists and inventors. Scientists and inventors still voluntatily come to the US and continue to become US citizens by choice. Hardly a theft.

At the end of WWII Germany the Nazi regime was defeated as were the forces of Imperial Japan. You seem to have conviently forgotten who were the aggressors in that war. I suppoe the deaths and expropriation of Jewish property was somehow justified. I suppose the invasion of Poland, France and the attempted invasion of Britian is somehow justified. Then there is the matter of Pearl Harbor, China and most of Southeast Asia. Of course the Thailand Burma railway was completed justified. The US could have easily followed the Russians and kept their portion. The US could have easily administed harsh punishment to Germany and Japan. Instead the US rebuilt Europe and Japan and allowed them the right of self determination. The US isn't perfect particularly the current administration. But as to your accusation of "stealing" from Germany it doesn't hold water.

You my friend appear to be away with the Fairies and living in Mickey Mouse world. I think most people would "volunteer" to become citizens of another country if they feared for the wellbeing of there relatives. Further I fail to see where the dropping of 2 atomic bombs, murdering innocent civilians can not be called harsh punishment ! But still one could also argue the the expropriation of Palestine in order to create the Jewish State of Israel and the consequenetial difficulties in that region thus caused could also be considered a mainly American brainwave.As for America re-building Europe then you should educate yourself better rather than reading American published history books , written by Americans for Americans. So my friend, far from America being the worlds helpers they were the opposite and have now become one of the worlds worst aggressors, allowed free rein since the end of the cold war, well that is apart from the shambles in Vietnam when you thought that bombing everything and everyone was a cure for all ills. Still I guess nothing has changed from that philosophy - witness the ongoing shambles in Iraq and Afganistan - Oh those Americans, how they help everyone. Back to the topic and they help no one unless there is money in it for them. The gift to the world made by the likes of Sir Alexander Fleming and Louis Pasteur would not have happened had they been born in Mickey Mouse land.

your hatred of americans and america is so intense, it scares me.

It is not me but the other 5.9 billion you should worry about who don't like Americans either, except Tony Blair that is.

[Johpa]

Gotta look at the source of this information.

Its not a balance report, but an emotional outburst against the traditional enemies of the left, the USA, business and anybody with any money.

Without business and profit from previous drugs, there would be no new drugs of this kind for anyone at any price.

Not trendy, but it is true! Sorry

Not true since the VAST majority of R&D for AIDS meds are publicly funded ... not funded by Abbott Merck and Phizer etc

Not just AIDS drugs, most truly new and innovative drugs are initially finded by public money. Big Pharma spends the relatively small amount of their R&D budgets developing me too drugs for which there are less public funds available for R&D. Abbott, Merck and Phizer are primarily marketing companies, not research companies.

<deleted> - read that one book by Marcia Angell have you and think you are informed?

You are more than welcome to establish your credentials here and counter the arguments put forth in Marcia Angell's book. Dr. Angell's credentials read: "Marcia Angell, M. D., is Senior Lecturer in the Department of Social Medicine at Harvard Medical School. She stepped down as Editor-in-Chief of the New England Journal of Medicine on June 30, 2000. A graduate of Boston University School of Medicine, she trained in both internal medicine and anatomic pathology and is a board-certified pathologist."

And since when has reading books been considered the road to becoming ill-informed?

Edited March 14, 2007 by Johpa

[jetjock]

Not trying to be a killjoy but getting back to the subject of Abbott Labs and HIV drugs, after reading some of the remarks about Abbott Laboratories and corporate greed, I decided to check on what they are paying the CEO to run the company. Chairman and CEO: Miles D. White last reported a yearly compensation package worth 8.24 million USD. However over the past 6 years, he has only averaged a compensation of 5.37 million USD per year. As you can see, he gets paid big bucks for making decisions like cutting off new drugs to Thailand. After making decisions like that, don't you think he deserves to make a few million so he can afford buy a nice house in the country so he will have a place to go and not think about the people that will be affected by his decisions. rolleyes: ?

[PeaceBlondie]

Folks, can we stay on topic without re-fighting the first, second and ninth world wars, the Hugenots, the Crusades, and Gulliver's Travels? Thank you; good night.

And yes, I confess to making border runs to get tetracycline really cheap, but I also had a Mexican MD to give me a script for it...

[ChiangMaiAmerican]

Not trying to be a killjoy but getting back to the subject of Abbott Labs and HIV drugs, after reading some of the remarks about Abbott Laboratories and corporate greed, I decided to check on what they are paying the CEO to run the company. Chairman and CEO: Miles D. White last reported a yearly compensation package worth 8.24 million USD. However over the past 6 years, he has only averaged a compensation of 5.37 million USD per year. As you can see, he gets paid big bucks for making decisions like cutting off new drugs to Thailand. After making decisions like that, don't you think he deserves to make a few million so he can afford buy a nice house in the country so he will have a place to go and not think about the people that will be affected by his decisions. rolleyes: ?

Executive compensation is way out of hand. The only voice of reason appears to be Warren Buffett who BTW gave away a much larger percentage of his fortune than Bill Gates. Buffett may well eclipse Gates as the world's wealthest individual in the next couple of years. Unfortunately a majority of the American people are still complacent on the issue of executive compensation. Hopefully that will change in the same manner as support for anything Bush has changed.

Edited March 14, 2007 by ChiangMaiAmerican

[cclub75]

Anyway, instead of finding a solution, through dialog... the thais are quick to give their best "###### you" policy.

It is something they do very well... even when it will lead to an even worse situation... for them.

Call that childish, or just plain stupidity.

Last example the health minister :

"Dr Mongkol shrugged off the firm's announcement.

He said the government would continue its efforts to increase public access to essential drugs.

''It's all right if the company wants to withdraw its application to market new medicines here. We will find drugs from other sources instead,'' he said.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/15Mar2007_news13.php

This man is a genius ! He will buy the Abott's drugs, via another country... And the price will be higher than from Abott in direct !

So perfect, so thai.