UK Labour's trade union backers support second referendum onBrexit deal

[stephenterry]

22 hours ago, Nigel Garvie said:

Well I remember at the time avoiding saying "Thick or stupid" or anything like that, and simply referred to the education level, which YouGov themselves had highlighted. 

 

I don't have a degree myself, just a tech qualification, though I have managed to run a small business for over 30 years. I am starting to read a book called "The Intelligence Trap" subtitled "Why smart people make dumb mistakes". I don't believe that education automatically correlates with intelligence the evidence is all around us. As the book says:- "People with high IQs are also just as susceptible to the confirmation bias – our tendency to only consider the information that supports our pre-existing opinions, while ignoring facts that might contradict our views. That’s a serious issue when we start talking about things like politics."

 

Sadly Brexit has torn our country apart, and has become a religion for many on both sides, and no one is prepared to contemplate the non-existence of the sky fairy. However what I do take exception to is the idea that ALL our problems come from the EU, this is IMHO a quite spectacularly dumb thing to believe. It strikes me the the UK is quite capable of making problems for themselves without any outside help, we have been doing it for 100s of years already.

I agree completely. One point. It's the UK Tory government (who has a majority of 2 seats with DUP support) who have been hell-bent on leaving the EU - and they call that democracy on the one hand and blame the EU on the other, for not complying.

 

The fact that Johnson would happily lead the Union into meltdown, crash the economy, and depreciate the pound, to achieve the Tory party aim (and save their seats in parliament) is far from benefitting Britain, IMO.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 11, 2019 by stephenterry
correction

[Loiner]

I agree completely. One point. It's the UK Tory government (who has a majority of 2 seats with DUP support) who have been hell-bent on leaving the EU - and they call that democracy on the one hand and blame the EU on the other, for not complying.
 
The fact that Johnson would happily lead the Union into meltdown, crash the economy, and depreciate the pound, to achieve the Tory party aim (and save their seats in parliament) is far from benefitting Britain, IMO.

 

If the Tory govt was so hell bent we would have been out by now. For the last three years we have been stuck with a Tory Remainer PM and a bunch of traitorous anti democratic Remainer MPs. All that will change in a couple of weeks when Boris is PM.
He will lead the whole country, including the anti democratic Remainers, into Brexit freedom and prove your Project Fear to have been wrong all along.

[stephenterry]

8 hours ago, Loiner said:

If the Tory govt was so hell bent we would have been out by now. For the last three years we have been stuck with a Tory Remainer PM and a bunch of traitorous anti democratic Remainer MPs. All that will change in a couple of weeks when Boris is PM.
He will lead the whole country, including the anti democratic Remainers, into Brexit freedom and prove your Project Fear to have been wrong all along.

I really wish I had your optimism, which unfortunately is not going to happen. And as I've pointed out many times to you, it's been the hard Tory Brexiteers of the ERG who voted against May's deal and prevented the UK from leaving the EU. If 'brexit freedom' is your main objective, whatever that means, don't blame May or remainers for it not happening. 

 

Because it's worth stating it yet again, here is the real-life project fear that could well occur.

 

The fact that Johnson would happily lead the Union into meltdown, crash the economy, and depreciate the pound, to achieve the Tory party aim (and save their seats in parliament) is far from benefitting Britain, IMO. 

 

 

 

Edited July 12, 2019 by stephenterry
correction

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, stephenterry said:

I really wish I had your optimism, which unfortunately is not going to happen. And as I've pointed out many times to you, it's been the hard Tory Brexiteers of the ERG who voted against May's deal and prevented the UK from leaving the EU. If 'brexit freedom' is your main objective, whatever that means, don't blame May or remainers for it not happening. 

 

Because it's worth stating it yet again, here is the real-life project fear that could well occur.

 

The fact that Johnson would happily lead the Union into meltdown, crash the economy, and depreciate the pound, to achieve the Tory party aim (and save their seats in parliament) is far from benefitting Britain, IMO. 

 

 

 

May's deal! 

[Mike Teavee]

3 minutes ago, nauseus said:

May's deal! 

Let's see if BoJo can better it then... ????

 

 

[Loiner]

, it's been the hard Tory Brexiteers of the ERG who voted against May's deal and prevented the UK from leaving the EU.
If 'brexit freedom' is your main objective, whatever that means, don't blame May or remainers for it not happening. 
 
Because it's worth stating it yet again, here is the real-life project fear that could well occur.
 

No. The ERG saved us from not leaving. May’s Deal was BRINO, a thinly disguised Surrender Treaty which was soundly thrown out by both sides of the House of Commons three times. May and all Remainers hold the blame for us not having exited yet.
You keep trying to hold that sky up, Project Fear has failed. Even the BoE is now beginning to admit the lie.

[aright]

On 7/10/2019 at 4:57 AM, nauseus said:

It doesn't matter, Blazes. Point at them all you want. Remoaners here have been going on and on about the lower educational levels of us fick levers for the last 3 years. Or is it 4?   

Not only our fickness, for the last three years they have been trying to obfuscate, confuse,  oppose, muddy the waters to ultimately betray our vote to leave the EU. Many of them add to the betrayal by trying to diminish and humiliate our country, its institutions, its Parliament and image in the world's eyes. Shame on them. 

 

 

 

[stephenterry]

20 hours ago, Loiner said:

No. The ERG saved us from not leaving. May’s Deal was BRINO, a thinly disguised Surrender Treaty which was soundly thrown out by both sides of the House of Commons three times. May and all Remainers hold the blame for us not having exited yet.
You keep trying to hold that sky up, Project Fear has failed. Even the BoE is now beginning to admit the lie.

You can't cherry pick how you want to leave. Leave means leave. Which is what you voted for - unless I'm mistaken that the leave tick box on the ballot paper showed/added something different.

End of.

 

IMO, a Johnson 'amended version' of Brino would mitigate the 'red-line' version of a Brexit disaster about to happen, and at the very least, bring about a degree of sanity going forward. Britain doesn't need new trade deals, it's got plenty excellent ones in place already. It doesn't need massive disruption at ports, the current Customs system works efficiently. It doesn't need the car industry to implode, or businesses relocating to the EU. It doesn't need massive job losses, renewal of austerity, and higher prices of goods and services.. etc etc...

 

As for the BoE, it's good news that they've at least got a handle on how to mitigate the 'no-deal' scenario learnt from the 2008 crash. It doesn't mean that there won't be massive disruption to financial services, though, even though I'm well pleased that at least one major UK service industry is prepared for the crash.

 

  

 

[Loiner]

7 hours ago, stephenterry said:

You can't cherry pick how you want to leave. Leave means leave. Which is what you voted for - unless I'm mistaken that the leave tick box on the ballot paper showed/added something different.

End of.

 

IMO, a Johnson 'amended version' of Brino would mitigate the 'red-line' version of a Brexit disaster about to happen, and at the very least, bring about a degree of sanity going forward. Britain doesn't need new trade deals, it's got plenty excellent ones in place already. It doesn't need massive disruption at ports, the current Customs system works efficiently. It doesn't need the car industry to implode, or businesses relocating to the EU. It doesn't need massive job losses, renewal of austerity, and higher prices of goods and services.. etc etc...

 

As for the BoE, it's good news that they've at least got a handle on how to mitigate the 'no-deal' scenario learnt from the 2008 crash. It doesn't mean that there won't be massive disruption to financial services, though, even though I'm well pleased that at least one major UK service industry is prepared for the crash.

 

  

 

How do you manage to quote 'Leave Means Leave' then try to assert that an amended BRINO will avert all your imaginary ills of Project Fear? You tell us that we can't cherry pick how we leave, while trying to cherry pick how you want us to actually Remain but claim to have Left.

This is why a clean cut No Deal exit is the only solution. 

[stephenterry]

16 minutes ago, Loiner said:

How do you manage to quote 'Leave Means Leave' then try to assert that an amended BRINO will avert all your imaginary ills of Project Fear? You tell us that we can't cherry pick how we leave, while trying to cherry pick how you want us to actually Remain but claim to have Left.

This is why a clean cut No Deal exit is the only solution. 

The only solution to what, exactly? And I'll add another question. When you get to that Brexit Utopia, tell me how it would benefit Britain, when all the facts - not ideological bullshit - point in exactly the opposite direction? And why would the BoE even prepare for a no deal exit on the same basis as the 2008 financial meltdown if that deal is the only solution?

 

Excuse me, but I cannot understand your arguments when they're so clearly the opposite of reality.

Edited July 13, 2019 by stephenterry
correction

[Loiner]

34 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

The only solution to what, exactly? And I'll add another question. When you get to that Brexit Utopia, tell me how it would benefit Britain, when all the facts - not ideological bullshit - point in exactly the opposite direction? And why would the BoE even prepare for a no deal exit on the same basis as the 2008 financial meltdown if that deal is the only solution?

 

Excuse me, but I cannot understand your arguments when they're so clearly the opposite of reality.

If you can't or won't understand that's your problem. A no deal exit is the only way to leave, without Remainer lying, cheating and tricks to keep us in the EU, while claiming we left. 

[stephenterry]

2 minutes ago, Loiner said:

If you can't or won't understand that's your problem. A no deal exit is the only way to leave, without Remainer lying, cheating and tricks to keep us in the EU, while claiming we left. 

????????????

[aright]

56 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

The only solution to what, exactly? And I'll add another question. When you get to that Brexit Utopia, tell me how it would benefit Britain, when all the facts - not ideological bullshit - point in exactly the opposite direction? And why would the BoE even prepare for a no deal exit on the same basis as the 2008 financial meltdown if that deal is the only solution?

 

Excuse me, but I cannot understand your arguments when they're so clearly the opposite of reality.

 

The EU is a federal construct, deliberately designed to obliterate the nation state and replace it with unaccountable, unelected decision makers who "know what is good" for people as opposed to people knowing what is good for themselves and able to vote out politicians with whom they disagree. 

The EU is only partly a trade area. It is also political union, with EU citizens, an EU currency, a Parliament, a system of presidents, a civil service, a central bank, an army?? an anthem, a flag, and border guards. In due course there will be EU taxes, EU debts and EU political parties who have policies for EU spending.

UK Leavers do not want any of these things

With your reality specialty perhaps you could explain to us the benefits of staying in your Remainer Utopia.

Edited July 13, 2019 by aright

[Orton Rd]

still makes me laugh

 

 

[Nigel Garvie]

59 minutes ago, Orton Rd said:

still makes me laugh

 

 

Still makes me laugh (Try a real comedian this time)

 

[nauseus]

7 minutes ago, Nigel Garvie said:

Still makes me laugh (Try a real comedian this time)

 

Real comedian? What a larf!

[Orton Rd]

watched it did not laugh at all, using the c word a few times does not make him a comedian, it makes him a c

[Rimmer]

A baiting troll post has been removed also the irate replies to it.

[Nigel Garvie]

18 minutes ago, Orton Rd said:

watched it did not laugh at all, using the c word a few times does not make him a comedian, it makes him a c

Of course you didn't laugh, the joke was on you. It's timing that makes a comedian BTW, he has it in spades, like it or not.

 

[stephenterry]

1 hour ago, aright said:

 

The EU is a federal construct, deliberately designed to obliterate the nation state and replace it with unaccountable, unelected decision makers who "know what is good" for people as opposed to people knowing what is good for themselves and able to vote out politicians with whom they disagree. 

The EU is only partly a trade area. It is also political union, with EU citizens, an EU currency, a Parliament, a system of presidents, a civil service, a central bank, an army?? an anthem, a flag, and border guards. In due course there will be EU taxes, EU debts and EU political parties who have policies for EU spending.

UK Leavers do not want any of these things

With your reality specialty perhaps you could explain to us the benefits of staying in your Remainer Utopia.

No, I don't expect an understanding that to make changes to the EU - clearly not an ideal situation - is best served by the UK cutting off its ties. I have always promoted that the best approach is for a UK government to Remain and to challenge the faults from within the EU where the UK has a seat and a voting veto.

 

Brexit WOULD NOT accomplish this.  it would be a cop-out and the worst option, IMO. Contrary to other posters opinion, who consider that the only option is to leave - now promoting a no deal - is preferable, can only be detrimental to Britain.

 

How anyone cannot understand that, is not listening or accepting reality. 

Edited July 13, 2019 by stephenterry
addition to text.

[aright]

40 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

No, I don't expect an understanding that to make changes to the EU - clearly not an ideal situation - is best served by the UK cutting off its ties. I have always promoted that the best approach is for a UK government to Remain and to challenge the faults from within the EU where the UK has a seat and a voting veto. 

 

Brexit WOULD NOT accomplish this.  it would be a cop-out and the worst option, IMO. Contrary to other posters opinion, who consider that the only option is to leave - now promoting a no deal - is preferable, can only be detrimental to Britain.

 

How anyone cannot understand that, is not listening or accepting reality. 

Westminster in spite of its frustrating foibles indulges itself in open & transparent democracy. We can still elect & dismiss our MPs. The current election of the UK's next Prime Minister although painfully drawn out (as is democracy) is being carried out in full sight of everyone. The same cannot be said for the secretive trade-offs that will "elect" the leaders of the EU. as was demonstrated recently.

There has been no response by the EU to the rise of extreme political parties, euro disparity and unfairness and an immigration crisis etc. except to promote more EU  against the wishes of the electorate as evidenced by recent election results.

The German-Franco hegemony will not reform and democratise their Empire:  it's delivering what they want and have worked so assiduously to create over the past half-century. 

The original concept of the Common Market was laudable enough back in 1958 but since then has morphed into a sham democracy. If you do not have control over the direction and selection of policy, then you do not have any control over how you are governed. If you have no control over how you are governed and cannot directly vote to dismiss those who govern you, you are not a citizen but a vassal. 

After almost 50 years of failure to reform, were we to stay, what would you recommend British MEP's ( 10% of the EU Parliament.) do and what would you prioritise and how long would you give them to change?

 

 

 

 

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, Nigel Garvie said:

Of course you didn't laugh, the joke was on you. It's timing that makes a comedian BTW, he has it in spades, like it or not.

 

Timing? Like being able to issue an F or a C every two seconds? I'm in the wrong job then. 

[JAG]

On 7/9/2019 at 2:37 PM, stephenterry said:

It would be democratically the best for Britain if brexit was junked. 

Umh, the British people voted for Brexit - that was democratic, every person (over 18) had one vote, and the option which got the most votes (Brexit) was the one chosen.

 

How could it be democratic to "junk" that option?

 

I ask because we keep being told that it will be "more democratic" to ignore what the people voted for, in about as simple a democratic exercise as they get, a simple binary question put to the entire electorate. Humour me please - I know I am really thick - but how can ignoring that, however much you don't like it, be democratic?

[stephenterry]

11 hours ago, JAG said:

Umh, the British people voted for Brexit - that was democratic, every person (over 18) had one vote, and the option which got the most votes (Brexit) was the one chosen.

 

How could it be democratic to "junk" that option?

 

I ask because we keep being told that it will be "more democratic" to ignore what the people voted for, in about as simple a democratic exercise as they get, a simple binary question put to the entire electorate. Humour me please - I know I am really thick - but how can ignoring that, however much you don't like it, be democratic?

It's almost a certainty that Brexit won't benefit Britain, so for the Tory government to pursue such an aim is madness in the extreme. The only reason that they are doing this in the name of democracy and honouring the referendum vote, is to save their seats at the next GE. It's all about self-preservation and self-interest, nothing else.

 

Fortunately parliament as a collective, think and act differently. They are acting - to date - as answering to the total population of the UK, not a 17.4m minority. That's democracy in action. 

[stephenterry]

14 hours ago, aright said:

Westminster in spite of its frustrating foibles indulges itself in open & transparent democracy. We can still elect & dismiss our MPs. The current election of the UK's next Prime Minister although painfully drawn out (as is democracy) is being carried out in full sight of everyone. The same cannot be said for the secretive trade-offs that will "elect" the leaders of the EU. as was demonstrated recently.

There has been no response by the EU to the rise of extreme political parties, euro disparity and unfairness and an immigration crisis etc. except to promote more EU  against the wishes of the electorate as evidenced by recent election results.

The German-Franco hegemony will not reform and democratise their Empire:  it's delivering what they want and have worked so assiduously to create over the past half-century. 

The original concept of the Common Market was laudable enough back in 1958 but since then has morphed into a sham democracy. If you do not have control over the direction and selection of policy, then you do not have any control over how you are governed. If you have no control over how you are governed and cannot directly vote to dismiss those who govern you, you are not a citizen but a vassal. 

After almost 50 years of failure to reform, were we to stay, what would you recommend British MEP's ( 10% of the EU Parliament.) do and what would you prioritise and how long would you give them to change?

 

 

 

 

The first paragraph made me smile. Have you considered that the election of the next Tory leader has been far from democratic? Evidence of vote switching to favour BJ was apparent to many, yet promoted as being fair and above board by his 'team'. Yeah, sure.

 

If that's the reality, it sure wasn't back when the referendum was being touted by political liars like BJ. And, IMO, this selection process and the various spouting off by BJ and Hunt has been full of untruths, and promises that any reasonable person would reject as being improbable.

 

What I suggest British MEPs do  - assuming Uk leaves the EU - is to root out Farage and forgo his and their fat pensions - but hey, that's not going to happen, is it? As for remaining in the EU, let's wait for the next GE.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[NightSky]

On 7/9/2019 at 10:27 AM, welovesundaysatspace said:

Asking the electorate will be the only way out of the impasse. And it is the most sensible thing to do. The second most sensible thing. The most sensible thing would be to bin Brexit altogether (which will happen eventually anyway). 

The problem is that the electorate are in most, unaware of the impact of the decisions they collectively make due to the complexity of politics which is why we have elected politicians. 

 

The second problem is the politicians mostly need to be replaced since they mostly donot seem to have the countries best interest at heart and they are mostly fame mongering bar-stewards all wanting to grab power.

 

the damage is being caused from the indecisiveness of the clowns..

 

Brexit should have been either implemented or scrapped long ago, the indecisiveness is now causing clear damage.

Edited July 14, 2019 by NightSky

[Laughing Gravy]

I have to thank Labour for making the brexit party the number one party in the North in the next GE if Brexit doesn't happen. No doubt there will be the 'nay sayers' like they said about Nigel Farage and the brexit party won't get 1 MEP seat.

[transam]

20 hours ago, stephenterry said:

No, I don't expect an understanding that to make changes to the EU - clearly not an ideal situation - is best served by the UK cutting off its ties. I have always promoted that the best approach is for a UK government to Remain and to challenge the faults from within the EU where the UK has a seat and a voting veto.

 

Brexit WOULD NOT accomplish this.  it would be a cop-out and the worst option, IMO. Contrary to other posters opinion, who consider that the only option is to leave - now promoting a no deal - is preferable, can only be detrimental to Britain.

 

How anyone cannot understand that, is not listening or accepting reality. 

I gave you a ...????.....for that post..

[petemoss]

On 7/9/2019 at 4:20 AM, Chomper Higgot said:

I’ve asked you numerous times to produce evidence of this 60% of Labour voters, you always fail to do so.

 

65% of labour voters voted remain, 35% of Labour voters voted leave.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted

 

They were traitors when they voted to invoke article 50. Hardly traitors for giving their members the opportunity to right that wrong.

[petemoss]

23 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I have to thank Labour for making the brexit party the number one party in the North in the next GE if Brexit doesn't happen. No doubt there will be the 'nay sayers' like they said about Nigel Farage and the brexit party won't get 1 MEP seat.

They've only ever got one seat and that wasn't a "gain" as it was a sitting Conservative MP who jumped overboard. An act that he bitterly regretted later. No longer an MP.

 

No reason to suppose that it will be any different at the next election.