Democrats condemn Trump, white nationalism after two mass shootings

[Krataiboy]

3 hours ago, Jingthing said:

No and any logical person understands the reason. 

The Dayton shooting was not a terrorist incident.

The El Paso shooting was. 

Terrorism needs to have a POLITICAL motivation by definition

The El Paso shooter clearly did have such a motivation.

The Dayton shooter had political views but at least so far there is ZERO EVIDENCE that his crimes were motivated by those political views. 

Wrong on several counts. 

 

Terrorism is defined as a violent or dangerous act committed "in the furtherance of political OR SOCIAL objectives", which means both were terrorist attacks.

https://definedterm.com/terrorist_incident

 

Following the Dayton incident, CNN's website reported that "a Twitter account that appears to belong to Dayton mass shooter Connor Betts retweeted extreme left-wing and anti-police posts, as well as tweets supporting Antifa, or anti-fascist, protesters".

 

The alleged El Paso shooter's manifesto shows he holds views which call into question his majority media portrayal as an extreme ring-winger supremacist. Amongst the grievances listed in his manifesto, he cites the “takeover of the United States government by unchecked corporations” - a typical left-wing lament.

 

He also decries the evils of pro-corporatism, writing, “Procorporation = pro-immigration” (i.e., because big corporations want cheap immigrant labor) before going on to attack America itself as a blight on the environment". Hardly the rantings of a rabid rightist.

 

The ideology driving his anger against immigration into his homeland appears to be the typically left-wing/green view that overpopulation is damaging the environment and limiting resources. 

https://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/crime/item/33057-despite-leftist-media-claims-el-paso-shooter-is-one-of-them

 

 

 

 

Edited August 7, 2019 by Krataiboy

[stevenl]

14 minutes ago, Krataiboy said:

Wrong on several counts. 

 

Terrorism is defined as a violent or dangerous act committed "in the furtherance of political OR SOCIAL objectives", which means both were terrorist attacks.

https://definedterm.com/terrorist_incident

 

Following the Dayton incident, CNN's website reported that "a Twitter account that appears to belong to Dayton mass shooter Connor Betts retweeted extreme left-wing and anti-police posts, as well as tweets supporting Antifa, or anti-fascist, protesters".

 

The alleged El Paso shooter's manifesto shows he holds views which call into question his majority media portrayal as an extreme ring-winger supremacist. Amongst the grievances listed in his manifesto, he cites the “takeover of the United States government by unchecked corporations” - a typical left-wing lament.

 

He also decries the evils of pro-corporatism, writing, “Procorporation = pro-immigration” (i.e., because big corporations want cheap immigrant labor) before going on to attack America itself as a blight on the environment". Hardly the rantings of a rabid rightist.

 

The ideology driving his anger against immigration into his homeland appears to be the typically left-wing/green view that overpopulation is damaging the environment and limiting resources. 

https://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/crime/item/33057-despite-leftist-media-claims-el-paso-shooter-is-one-of-them

 

 

 

 

The Dayton shooter apparently did not so with political or social objectives. So not a terrorist attack.

[mogandave]

The Dayton shooter apparently did not so with political or social objectives. So not a terrorist attack.

Exactly, no manifesto. Had he written a manifesto rather than just tweeting and whatnot the press would be blaming Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sander for the deaths.

[candide]

12 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

Exactly, no manifesto. Had he written a manifesto rather than just tweeting and whatnot the press would be blaming Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sander for the deaths.

 

Had he justified his crime with arguments drawn from statements by EW or BS in a manifesto or in any other form, they could be blamed. But he did not.

[mogandave]

Had he justified his crime with arguments drawn from statements by EW or BS in a manifesto or in any other form, they could be blamed. But he did not.

Isn’t that what I said? The fact that he was (apparently) a socialist supporting Elizabeth Warren had nothing to do with his rampage.

Unless he was upset about Trump’s racist attacks on Elizabeth Warren, that might have triggered it.

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

Isn’t that what I said? The fact that he was (apparently) a socialist supporting Elizabeth Warren had nothing to do with his rampage.

Unless he was upset about Trump’s racist attacks on Elizabeth Warren, that might have triggered it.

 

That makes no sense.

If the act was an act of terrorism against the "trump" movement he would have attacked a target that could be identified that way. This case seems not to be like that at all. It was a bar he clearly knew. He was seen in there talking to his sister. He clearly targeted his sister and of course it's clear his intention was to kill hundreds of random people. That target can't be linked to a political  motivation. 

[mogandave]

Sorry

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

That’s what I said.

 

No, you presented an example of how it could be about Elizabeth Warren as if there was any evidence of that. Which there is NOT. 

[marcusarelus]

4 hours ago, Jingthing said:

No and any logical person understands the reason. 

The Dayton shooting was not a terrorist incident.

The El Paso shooting was. 

Terrorism needs to have a POLITICAL motivation by definition

The El Paso shooter clearly did have such a motivation.

The Dayton shooter had political views but at least so far there is ZERO EVIDENCE that his crimes were motivated by those political views. 

Why did CNN admit he was an Antifa supporter?

Dayton Daily News confirmed that the shooter “definitely leaned to the left” and had spoken extensively in the recent past about shooting up local bars.

 

Snopes confirmed 

Dayton Mass Shooter a Self-Described ‘Pro-Satan Leftist Who Supported Elizabeth Warren’

Edited August 7, 2019 by marcusarelus

[mogandave]

No, you presented an example of how it could be about Elizabeth Warren as if there was any evidence of that. Which there is NOT. 

 

No, I presented an example of how it could be Trump’s fault.

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

No, I presented an example of how it could be Trump’s fault.

In your cockamamie theory how would you explain his TARGETS which were mostly black people a group that overwhelmingly opposes "trump"? Again, there is ZERO evidence the Dayton mass shooting was terrorism. But it's still a mystery what did motivate him especially considering the very unusual murder of a sibling as part of a mass shooting of strangers. 

[mogandave]

In your cockamamie theory how would you explain his TARGETS which were mostly black people a group that overwhelmingly opposes "trump"? Again, there is ZERO evidence the Dayton mass shooting was terrorism. But it's still a mystery what did motivate him especially considering the very unusual murder of a sibling as part of a mass shooting of strangers. 

Murdering siblings is not really that unusual.

In any event, I don’t think I said there was any evidence, I only implied it was possible.

[Nigel Garvie]

5 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

Why did CNN admit he was an Antifa supporter?

Dayton Daily News confirmed that the shooter “definitely leaned to the left” and had spoken extensively in the recent past about shooting up local bars.

What on earth is the fuss about Antifa. Being against fascism should be the default position for any civilized human being on the planet. The allies fought ww11 against fascism for heavens sake. With the emergence of Trump, Bojo, and Farage that appears to be something that we have forgotten about IMHO - the danger of lying populists.

 

Good lord, he "Leaned to the left" is that a crime in the US, what kind of god forsaken reality do you guys live in.

 

I will grant that a bunch of historically illiterate kids may self identify as Antifa (Among other silly things) they are children, children do that, why bother, it's silly, being against fascism is the default position for any civilized human being on the planet. At least they are not gun toting white supremacists, a real threat to society, and indeed the world.

 

 

[marcusarelus]

34 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

That makes no sense.

If the act was an act of terrorism against the "trump" movement he would have attacked a target that could be identified that way. This case seems not to be like that at all. It was a bar he clearly knew. He was seen in there talking to his sister. He clearly targeted his sister and of course it's clear his intention was to kill hundreds of random people. That target can't be linked to a political  motivation. 

Lets eliminate his reasons and see what's left.  Is he a right wing nut?  No.  Do many spurned lovers load up 100 rounds and shoot at random?  No. Snopes says he is a left wing loony and follower of Elizabeth Warren and Snopes have confirmed that. Yes. 

Edited August 7, 2019 by marcusarelus

[stevenl]

15 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

Lets eliminate his reasons and see what's left.  Is he a right wing nut?  No.  Do many spurned lovers load up 100 rounds and shoot at random?  No. Snopes says he is a left wing loony and follower of Elizabeth Warren and Snopes have confirmed that. Yes. 

What's left? The usual right wing excuse when a white guy starts shooting: he is a sick individual.

[Jingthing]

Murdering siblings is not really that unusual.

In any event, I don’t think I said there was any evidence, I only implied it was possible.

Why did just twist what I said?
That is very annoying.
I never said murdering siblings doesn't happen.
Check again. I didn't.
What I was talking about was murdering a sibling in the context of a MASS SHOOTING of total strangers.
Got it now?
Can you name one other case like that?
Even if so it makes this case particularly weird.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Jingthing]

What on earth is the fuss about Antifa. Being against fascism should be the default position for any civilized human being on the planet. The allies fought ww11 against fascism for heavens sake. With the emergence of Trump, Bojo, and Farage that appears to be something that we have forgotten about IMHO - the danger of lying populists.
 
Good lord, he "Leaned to the left" is that a crime in the US, what kind of god forsaken reality do you guys live in.
 
I will grant that a bunch of historically illiterate kids may self identify as Antifa (Among other silly things) they are children, children do that, why bother, it's silly, being against fascism is the default position for any civilized human being on the planet. At least they are not gun toting white supremacists, a real threat to society, and indeed the world.
 
 

Antifa is radical and they are sometimes violent for sure but there is no history of Antifa doing mass shootings either ideologically targetted or random victims. This clearly wasn't an Antifa shooting. If Antifa ever does go there clearly their targets would be identifiable fascist targets. Such a development is of course possible but for now the biggest terrorism problem in the US is white supremacist followed by Islamist.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I'm not sure the best use of everyone's attention and energy at this point is of debating what this or that shooter's motivations, political or otherwise, might have been.

 

The essential point in all these cases is the shooters are nut jobs who never should have been given access to weapons of mass murder. And the reason they've been able to gain that access time after time is the NRA and the Republican party for years have blocked or diluted any kind of legislation that would have stopped these kinds of mass murder massacres, by outlawing those kinds of weapons and/or making them much more difficult to obtain.

 

I asked the question earlier and no one ever answered it, of course: what legitimate need does any American civilian have for possessing assault rifles and other automatic weapons with the capability of near instantaneous mass murder? The answer of course is absolutely none. But that hasn't stopped the NRA and Republicans, by their inaction, from giving these nut jobs easy access to those kinds of weapons of mass murder.

 

That's the essential point here, and the essential difference between Trump, McConnell and their lackeys on one side, and most or all of the Democratic presidential candidates.

 

Americans have a basic choice here: one side is willing to allow the mass slaughter of American to continue unabated, and the other side is trying to take meaningful actions to stop it. That's what Americans ought to be focusing on right now. Too many people have already needlessly died.

 

Whether left, right or center, Americans deserve to be protected from weapons of mass murder by outlawing those weapons in the country and taking steps to begin taking the ones that already exist out of circulation.

Edited August 7, 2019 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[chokrai]

It is semi-automatic not automatic. There is a difference. 

[allen303]

For two years the Democrats had a veto proof majority in the house and senate with a democratic president. They could have passed anything they so desired. To include gun laws, immigration, but they did nothing. They would rather have the problems as a political talking point to argue over then solve.

 

As for the second amendment. There is a little comma placed in there that gives the individual the right to own a gun, which has been upheld by numerous federal courts to include the Supreme Court. This is in reference to someone quoting the 2^nd Amendment implying it does not give the individual the right, about 50 statements back.

[Atens4]

No guns = no killins.

It is a self inflicted problem in the US. Every one out side the US look at this with disbelief 

[Slip]

1 hour ago, mogandave said:

 

Murdering siblings is not really that unusual.

In any event, I don’t think I said there was any evidence, I only implied it was possible.

 

Murdering siblings as part of a political mass-shooting seems pretty strange to me.  The fact that that happened, to me at least, implies that this was not a political act.  I could of course be entirely wrong.  That is the nature of making inferences.

[allen303]

It amazing how everybody gets their little panties in a wad over this one in Texas and not Ohio. Dead is Dead regardless of why he did it.

 

But look at any major inner city on any given weekend, Detroit, Baltimore, just pick one. They match this any given 4-day weekend. One thing they all have in common is they have been run my Democrats for the last 40 years or more. But hey, that’s black on black crime so we don’t wish to talk about that. One good thing, the Texas shooter will meet his end in Texas. They will put you’re a—in that old dirt nap. Unlike some of the other states.

 

I think the arrest rate for shooting in Baltimore or Chicago, can remember, just read it the other day, is 1 in 10. That don’t mean convictions that’s arrest.

[Krataiboy]

1 hour ago, Nigel Garvie said:

What on earth is the fuss about Antifa. Being against fascism should be the default position for any civilized human being on the planet. The allies fought ww11 against fascism for heavens sake. With the emergence of Trump, Bojo, and Farage that appears to be something that we have forgotten about IMHO - the danger of lying populists.

 

Good lord, he "Leaned to the left" is that a crime in the US, what kind of god forsaken reality do you guys live in.

 

I will grant that a bunch of historically illiterate kids may self identify as Antifa (Among other silly things) they are children, children do that, why bother, it's silly, being against fascism is the default position for any civilized human being on the planet. At least they are not gun toting white supremacists, a real threat to society, and indeed the world.

 

 

The fascists can now be found now mainly on the left, flaunting their intolerance on the streets and across the MSM and social media, arrogantly attacking - often with blows, not only vile words -  anyone who disagrees with them.

 

How ironic that these mindless young hoodlums spew the word "Nazi" at anyone who dares not to share their "progressive" ideologyc - as if they even had the faintest understanding of what the term Nazi even means.

 

To me, an old guy who lived through WW2, the masked, mindless,  violent Antifa thugs are the equivalent of Hitler's and Mosley's 'brown shirts - and just as dangerous to the kind of democracies that people like my father donned military uniform to protect.

 

The fact that their outrageous, intimidating behavior is either ignored and/or tacitly condoned by feeble governments across the Western world is a chilling indication of how close we are to be being subsumed by socialist totalitarianism promulgated by the globalist elite.

 

If we wish to hang on to the remnants of the democratic societies our forebears died in their millions to protect and preserve, we must insist on the right to free speech for all - even those indivuduals whose views may be not only opposed to our own, but utterly repugnant into the bargain.

 

The alternative to open, robust - and, yes, sometimes even blatantly offensive - public discourse is for warring factions to retire to their respecrtive polarised bunkers, where repressed anger and frustration can easily fester into hate to  produce monsters like those who wrought such appalling havoc in El Paso and Dayton.

 

We need to learn the salutory lessons of these tragic events before they become the new norm. 

Edited August 7, 2019 by Krataiboy

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 hour ago, allen303 said:

For two years the Democrats had a veto proof majority in the house and senate with a democratic president. They could have passed anything they so desired. To include gun laws, immigration, but they did nothing. They would rather have the problems as a political talking point to argue over then solve.

 

 

You seem to have a very poor knowledge of history... as Democrat majorities weren't always veto proof, and the overwhelming reason why gun legislation never got enacted was almost universal opposition by congressional Republicans, along with a few gun-state Democrats who sided with them.  The Republicans own this disaster, entirely.

 

Quote

 

Obama faced relentless opposition to gun reform, even after a shooting that left 20 children dead
....
In April 2013, as Sandy Hook parents looked on from the gallery, Senate Republicans ensured that a modest, bipartisan bill to expand background checks did not pass.
 

The bill, put forward by Democratic Sen. Joe Manchin of West Virginia and GOP Sen. Pat Toomey of Pennsylvania, failed in part due to pressure from the National Rifle Association. It needed 60 votes to pass, but four Democrats in states with high rates of gun ownership joined Republicans in voting against it, and the final count was 54-46.

 

 

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/why-obama-faced-relentless-opposition-gun-reform-after-sandy-hook-2019-8

 

I believe, Manchin and Toomey are trying to get the Senate to take up the same or similar bill now... and thus far, Rep. Majority Leader McConnell (aka Massacre Mitch) has refused to bring it to a vote.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Finally, faced with overwhelming Republican opposition, Obama had to turn to executive orders to get anything done on gun reforms -- orders that I believe Trump rescinded upon his election.

 

January 2016:

 

Quote

 

Leading US Republicans have denounced President Barack Obama's move to tighten gun controls.

House of Representatives Speaker Paul Ryan said the executive orders, which bypass Congress, "undermined liberty" and would be challenged in court.

Republican presidential frontrunner Donald Trump said that, if elected, he would reverse the measures.

In an emotional address on Tuesday, Mr Obama accused the gun lobby of holding the country hostage.

 

 

Quote

 

Donald Trump said that he would "un-sign" the measures if elected to the White House - a sentiment echoed by other Republican presidential candidates.

Senator Ted Cruz tweeted that the executive actions were unconstitutional, with a link to sign up for his campaign correspondence on a web page that says "Obama wants your guns".

Former Florida governor Jeb Bush, also a Republican candidate, tweeted that he would repeal the actions and protect the Second Amendment.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-35239504

Edited August 7, 2019 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[mogandave]

4 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

You seem to have a very poor knowledge of history... as Democrat majorities weren't always veto proof, and the overwhelming reason why gun legislation never got enacted was almost universal opposition by congressional Republicans, along with a few gun-state Democrats who sided with them.  The Republicans own this disaster, entirely.

 

 

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/why-obama-faced-relentless-opposition-gun-reform-after-sandy-hook-2019-8

 

I believe, Manchin and Toomey are trying to get the Senate to take up the same or similar bill now... and thus far, Rep. Majority Leader McConnell (aka Massacre Mitch) has refused to bring it to a vote.

Yes, but for the NRA and the evil republicans these people would all be alive.

[TopDeadSenter]

2 hours ago, stevenl said:

What's left? The usual right wing excuse when a white guy starts shooting: he is a sick individual.

Had you been paying attention to Trumps very informative Twitter account, you would know that the extreme bs from the media has radicalised a huge amount of Americans. He has repeatedly warned about the dangers of fake news and we all know the guilty stations/outlets. Banging on about evil Trump and his Russian masters, and other assorted and fallacious smears 24/7 for 3 years was bound to tip some over the edge of reason. And here we have it. Lots of dead people murdered by an Elizabeth Warren supporter and avowed leftist. I am still waiting for democratic introspection and apology. Not holding my breath.

 

[Jingthing]

Had you been paying attention to Trumps very informative Twitter account, you would know that the extreme bs from the media has radicalised a huge amount of Americans. He has repeatedly warned about the dangers of fake news and we all know the guilty stations/outlets. Banging on about evil Trump and his Russian masters, and other assorted and fallacious smears 24/7 for 3 years was bound to tip some over the edge of reason. And here we have it. Lots of dead people murdered by an Elizabeth Warren supporter and avowed leftist. I am still waiting for democratic introspection and apology. Not holding my breath.
 

For what? There is no evidence that the Toledo shooting had anything to do with political ideology.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[TopDeadSenter]

10 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

For what? There is no evidence that the Toledo shooting had anything to do with political ideology.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Toledo? The Antifa/Warren supporting/leftist shooter did his appalling murder spree in Dayton?