Farmers are reluctant to stop using toxic weed killers

[farmerjo]

15 minutes ago, IsaanAussie said:

As I said rough numbers. I am assuming using the same gear and technique as usual, hence the same total volume sprayed. Also assuming the $9-10 per litre commercial "retail" price if buying in 1000 litre IBC's. 

So a healthy amount of chalk and cheese difference in our numbers.

Thanks I/A,brain fade revised to 800 odd plus wetter.

They don't state what area of coverage which makes it difficult. 

Still that's a lot compared to roundup at 55 baht/rai.

Have i balls'd something up in my calc.

[IsaanAussie]

Arh, my brain hurts, took me five minutes to work out how to turn the calculator on! Besides your 55 baht/rai currently has me stunned. It cost me about 160/rai all up. 

Have to wait and see if they are interested in coming to Thailand first anyway.

 

[farmerjo]

6 minutes ago, IsaanAussie said:

Arh, my brain hurts, took me five minutes to work out how to turn the calculator on! Besides your 55 baht/rai currently has me stunned. It cost me about 160/rai all up. 

Have to wait and see if they are interested in coming to Thailand first anyway.

 

Would be happy to trial some if you can get it in anyway.

Just looked up there website and it does give an area,wait 900-1400 litres of spray per hectare.

That makes the price even more scary.

Sorry didn't include running costs on either just product cost.

[IsaanAussie]

Just now, farmerjo said:

Would be happy to trial some if you can get it in anyway.

Just looked up there website and it does give an area,wait 900-1400 litres of spray per hectare.

That makes the price even more scary.

Sorry didn't include running costs on either just product cost.

I read a technical sheet and thought the volume was high. They were concerned about drift and were talking about large droplets and needing complete foliar coverage. Well, that isn't going to happen easily around here. The fine spray used currently will get the foliage wet but with less water. They do say it is oily and hard to mix however. Very mixed reports in that review you posted as well.

Have to find out more I suppose.

[CLW]

The raw materials (pelargonic acid / nonoaic acid) can be imported in pure form and formulated here.

Should bring down the price as well.

 

[Edit] Plenty of suppliers in China.

This one from the US.

https://www.acme-hardesty.com/product/pelargonic-acid/

 

 

 

 

[farmerjo]

1 minute ago, CLW said:

The raw materials (pelargonic acid / nonoaic acid) can be imported in pure form and formulated here.
Should bring down the price as well.

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I would hope so cause at that rate your looking about 2200 baht/rai 1st pass on the minimum rate.

[IsaanAussie]

Just now, CLW said:

The raw materials (pelargonic acid / nonoaic acid) can be imported in pure form and formulated here.
Should bring down the price as well.

Agreed. Shipping 40-50% water is not ideal. The most viable answer is to ship the acid and licence the blending and distribution locally.

[IsaanAussie]

Just now, farmerjo said:

I would hope so cause at that rate your looking about 2200 baht/rai 1st pass on the minimum rate.

I will definitely not be looking at that sort of cost. 

[CLW]

Agreed. Shipping 40-50% water is not ideal. The most viable answer is to ship the acid and licence the blending and distribution locally.

Given my basic knowledge in chemistry it should be not so hard to formulate herbicide from the active ingredient acid.

An emulsifier to be able to make a solution in water plus a wetting agent such as Wetcit.

Sometimes Chinese suppliers are willing to send a sample let's say 1 liter. That should be enough for some trials.

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[farmerjo]

1 minute ago, IsaanAussie said:

I will definitely not be looking at that sort of cost. 

It's disappointing they aren't enforced to put the area on the label,it's a rort.

Mind you other than the big boys we all don't like,nobody puts it on here in Thailand.

Anybody noticed that. 

[farmerjo]

1 minute ago, CLW said:

Given my basic knowledge in chemistry it should be not so hard to formulate herbicide from the active ingredient acid.

An emulsifier to be able to make a solution in water plus a wetting agent such as Wetcit.

Sometimes Chinese suppliers are willing to send a sample let's say 1 liter. That should be enough for some trials.

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Given the rates required and being corrosive,would be lucky to have the fenders left on the poor ole tractor after a tank full of spray.????

[farmerjo]

28 minutes ago, IsaanAussie said:

I read a technical sheet and thought the volume was high. They were concerned about drift and were talking about large droplets and needing complete foliar coverage. Well, that isn't going to happen easily around here. The fine spray used currently will get the foliage wet but with less water. They do say it is oily and hard to mix however. Very mixed reports in that review you posted as well.

Have to find out more I suppose.

There would still be a market for schools,government,public places etc

Yet that may be our only farmers left option after a ban other than tillage,tillage and more tillage.

Edited October 17, 2019 by farmerjo

[farmerjo]

Word on the soi.

My Thai friend's own a couple of big chemical and fertilizer shops.

When i asked about licenses,courses,bans etc,she said not to panic.

They have been cut back with the amount of bulk supply on orders,so if they order 10 pallets of a product they will only receive 2 at a time.I purchased 240 litres of roundup and 100 litres of paraquat no problem.

She also mentioned the product will be the same in future with a label change.

I was not sure how to read into that one.

Her other thoughts were it was going to take a couple of years to phase out.

  

[IsaanAussie]

Just now, farmerjo said:

She also mentioned the product will be the same in future with a label change.

I was not sure how to read into that one.

Her other thoughts were it was going to take a couple of years to phase out.

  

Politics.... 

[farmerjo]

15 minutes ago, IsaanAussie said:

Politics.... 

Yep,i probably spent 38,000 today for nothing.

Still,i'm pretty comfortable there will be a buy back if something was to happen. 

[IsaanAussie]

What problem will you have? Labels are cheap

 

[kickstart]

If you just farmed maize they should not be a problem ,the only chemical we used was Atrazin as a pre emergent ,as has been said working the land before drilling will help with weed control and that is the problem a one pass cultivator ,with   say 2 rows ridged tines ,,say 2 rows of spring tins ,and some harrow tins would do the land some good but it will also lift the weeds and they will dry out and die .

They are used in the west for one pass cultivating they should work over here ,and when the crop is growing some inter row tine harrows would clear the weed seedlings ,until the crop grows and shads out the weeds 

The problem is timing, land work has to be done before the rains ,to give the weeds time to die ,and of coarse the cost, it has always cheaper to run a sprayer over a field than to use lots of hp pulling ploughs ect up and down a field .

This is just one crop ,where changes can be made ,and have direct drilling is becoming popular now.

But large part Thai agriculture ,change will not be easy. 

And as I see it it could be a catch 22 ,cassava and sugar cane are used for gasohol  so cutting down on expensive imports of crude oil ,and Thailand ,was the biggest exporter of cassava , rice farmers will say they costs will go up and they will want more handouts from the government ,

These chemical control measures   will keep the tree huger's happy but  it could hurt the Thai economy if more expensive  more environmentally friendly  alternatives are used .

[farmerjo]

34 minutes ago, IsaanAussie said:

What problem will you have? Labels are cheap

 

Taita have said to the NHSC they will apply to the administrive court to have all stockpiled stuff that farmers hold be reinburse which currently is valued at about 10 million baht.  

[farmerjo]

38 minutes ago, kickstart said:

If you just farmed maize they should not be a problem ,the only chemical we used was Atrazin as a pre emergent ,as has been said working the land before drilling will help with weed control and that is the problem a one pass cultivator ,with   say 2 rows ridged tines ,,say 2 rows of spring tins ,and some harrow tins would do the land some good but it will also lift the weeds and they will dry out and die .

They are used in the west for one pass cultivating they should work over here ,and when the crop is growing some inter row tine harrows would clear the weed seedlings ,until the crop grows and shads out the weeds 

The problem is timing, land work has to be done before the rains ,to give the weeds time to die ,and of coarse the cost, it has always cheaper to run a sprayer over a field than to use lots of hp pulling ploughs ect up and down a field .

This is just one crop ,where changes can be made ,and have direct drilling is becoming popular now.

But large part Thai agriculture ,change will not be easy. 

And as I see it it could be a catch 22 ,cassava and sugar cane are used for gasohol  so cutting down on expensive imports of crude oil ,and Thailand ,was the biggest exporter of cassava , rice farmers will say they costs will go up and they will want more handouts from the government ,

These chemical control measures   will keep the tree huger's happy but  it could hurt the Thai economy if more expensive  more environmentally friendly  alternatives are used .

I could never get the use of attrizine right,allways to wet or to dry on my soils.

I've spent the good part of 4-5 years and lot of baht on R&D to get my no-till were it is KS as you know.

Would be a lot easy for the plough and tillage guys to adjust.

But i don't see that moving broadacre farming forward here,yields will be the same for years to come. 

The day i have to turn that soil again i will sell up or buy 2 cows to run on it to keep the government happy it's farmland.

Were not eligible for subsidies.  

Edited October 18, 2019 by farmerjo

[kickstart]

HI FJ

I know that you are a big advocate  of no till ,and you have my respect for doing it , I just wrote   organic farming direct drilling in to Google ,nearly all the papers say weeds are the biggest problems ,one guy is using a cover crop and a crimper roller to kill off a drilled  cover crop  before direct drilling  with his main crop all with good effect ,

Another guy was using Min-till about every 2-3 years he  uses a cultivator  to brake the land up and help in weed control,to me that seems a good way 

But ,the above farmers are in the UK ,I would say the same technics are  be used in other western country's .

But this is Thailand ,the UK and other western country's  do not have rice grass, weeks of day time  temperature of 30-35 c plus ,or 40 mm  sometimes more of rain in one hit ,not knowing how much you will get for your crop ,until you harvest it, and now this fall army worm ,it dose not make farming easy ,and going back to the op ,not using any chemical's makes farming difficult .

Near me we have 2-3 crops of maize ,all direct drilled , last moth all used a pre emergent spray ,with out it the field would be mass of weeds ,the crops are almost 2 foot high ,the rains have just about ended for this year ,I would say these crops will either be ploughed in or cut for cattle feed,can not see them growing any more and  being harvested ,yet more problems with farming in Thailand . 

[farmerjo]

Hi KS.

I was just reading in the business section acedemics reakon it will affect the sugar industry by 570 billion alone.

One thing i've been thinking about also since I/A showed us a new alternative is the spraying WATER required will rise 6 fold,will there be enough or are farmers going to have to tap into village water supplies.

 

[CLW]

Atrazine doesn't seem to be a good alternative either, unfortunately...

"Its use was banned in the European Union in 2004, when the EU found groundwater levels exceeding the limits set by regulators, and Syngenta could not show that this could be prevented nor that these levels were safe."

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[farmerjo]

1 hour ago, CLW said:

Atrazine doesn't seem to be a good alternative either, unfortunately...

"Its use was banned in the European Union in 2004, when the EU found groundwater levels exceeding the limits set by regulators, and Syngenta could not show that this could be prevented nor that these levels were safe."

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When they started talking about the bans,that was the 1st one i thought would be top of the list.

Can lead to mono cropping.

[CLW]

This is a good recommendation.
However, I'll assume a lot of these chemicals are not available here.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LTr2xiNgztNbxeQ_9C1rEp-qxtkZoLsE/view?usp=drivesdk

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[Grumpy John]

20 hours ago, farmerjo said:

Hi KS.

I was just reading in the business section acedemics reakon it will affect the sugar industry by 570 billion alone.

One thing i've been thinking about also since I/A showed us a new alternative is the spraying WATER required will rise 6 fold,will there be enough or are farmers going to have to tap into village water supplies.

 

We already tap into the town water supply in the dry season!  I've taken the airbus out to water the trees with town water every year. Despite having our dam deepened by 2 metres we cannot get enough ground water in the dam to irrigate 5 times. And there is no extra ground to make it bigger!  So we have to use the town water to the tune of 35k litres/year or more when you bring in spraying chemi. And I would imagine that this is  happening all over our district...except over at Wang Qung has an ag coop dam which is huge! 

[IsaanAussie]

We have a large reservoir in our village. Maybe 600 metres by 200m. It was dug out by the government about 12 years ago. Because it is sited on an existing marsh area it is always at least half full. They built a water tower and pumphouse and "Somchai" and friends installed a 2" plastic main throughout the village all of 2" under ground, (didnt last long). But none of the pumps have ever been started. No-one will pay for unfiltered runoff water, for that matter for any water. We do have an annual fishing competition on the pond that attracts hundreds and raises money, but no water is "officially" used. A few 1" small pumps and hoses.

One day, I am going to put my 3" pump in that pond and fill my ponds. But now, TIT.

[farmerjo]

Unfiltered water,yes you have to be pretty perdantic when it comes to water quality for spraying.

I usually use my lake water for spraying but on a year like this where the water is stagnate from lack of rain to overflow and flush it,i had to settle for using bore water.

[Grumpy John]

I have to say our #2 orchard in Nam On is looking a lot like the pic in the original post!  Because everyone is harvesting rice and corn there is no labour to hire ATM.  So the weeds keep growing. I was up there a week ago and had to use a sythe to cut the weeds around each tree to get in and prune. I understand why people use weed killer, I am seeing the results in Nam Om of not using it.  And I understand those that want to stop the use of weed killer, but they have to offer alternative product that is reasonably priced and effective or they will be creating a  black-market in weed killer and other product.  

On 10/19/2019 at 2:22 PM, farmerjo said:

Hi KS.

I was just reading in the business section acedemics reakon it will affect the sugar industry by 570 billion alone.

One thing i've been thinking about also since I/A showed us a new alternative is the spraying WATER required will rise 6 fold,will there be enough or are farmers going to have to tap into village water supplies.

 

We already tap into the town water supply in the dry season!  I've taken the airbus out to water the trees with town water every year. Despite having our dam deepened by 2 metres we cannot get enough ground water in the dam to irrigate 5 times. And there is no extra ground to make it bigger!  So we have to use the town water to the tune of 35k litres/year or more when you bring in spraying chemi. And I would imagine that this is  happening all over our district...except over at Wang Qung has an ag coop dam which is huge! 

[canuckamuck]

30 minutes ago, Grumpy John said:

I have to say our #2 orchard in Nam On is looking a lot like the pic in the original post!  Because everyone is harvesting rice and corn there is no labour to hire ATM.  So the weeds keep growing. I was up there a week ago and had to use a sythe to cut the weeds around each tree to get in and prune. I understand why people use weed killer, I am seeing the results in Nam Om of not using it.  And I understand those that want to stop the use of weed killer, but they have to offer alternative product that is reasonably priced and effective or they will be creating a  black-market in weed killer and other product.  

We already tap into the town water supply in the dry season!  I've taken the airbus out to water the trees with town water every year. Despite having our dam deepened by 2 metres we cannot get enough ground water in the dam to irrigate 5 times. And there is no extra ground to make it bigger!  So we have to use the town water to the tune of 35k litres/year or more when you bring in spraying chemi. And I would imagine that this is  happening all over our district...except over at Wang Qung has an ag coop dam which is huge! 

You have a scythe? Is it really a scythe, about a meter and a half long with a half meter blade? Or is it a sickle? hand held.

I am looking for a proper scythe.

 

[IsaanAussie]

Just now, canuckamuck said:

You have a scythe? Is it really a scythe, about a meter and a half long with a half meter blade? Or is it a sickle? hand held.

I am looking for a proper scythe.

 

I have a close by friend that has a number of them and uses them regularly. (Sharpens/hones more regularly probably). Wins the race against a 4 stroke brush cutter. 

It came from India, he was thinking of importing them

 

Edited October 22, 2019 by IsaanAussie