Problems with Hanoi thai embassy and ED language visas

[JandT]

I wanted to make everyone aware that Hanoi Vietnam is becoming extremely difficult to get ed visas for language studies. I attend a Thai language School in hangdong, chiang mai and recently had went to Hanoi a month ago to get my third year visa and I had absolutely no problem. My first two years in Thailand I went to Vientiane and had no problems but with the new changes I decided to go to Hanoi because another student had went about two months prior and also had no problems. I had my paperwork and my bank statement and was literally less than 5 minutes the day I dropped off my paperwork and the next day when I picked up the Visa. But now fast forward about 30 days ... the school that I attend said that two new students that had never had a Thai education Visa before went to Hanoi because other people had went and it was easy but when they gave them the paperwork they denied them and said they needed a new paper because the rules had changed just recently but they gave them no reason and no clear explanation of what they needed. They did give them a piece of paper that said the reason could be because they want to Simply do border runs to stay in Thailand which makes no sense because you have to make a border run to get almost any Visa here. The school I attend was very confused and told them to go to Vientiane and try. one person went there and was also denied in Vientiane. mind you this is their first on ed visa and they had all correct paperwork. They were given no explanation there also and when they went back into Thailand they asked to have a 60-day stamp and the officer would only give them 30 days. The school contacted someone at immigration to ask them what was going on and they were told that Hanoi does not want to approve people who don't have money anymore. They only want people to come into Thailand that have money. So this is a heads up for anyone going to Hanoi Vietnam or Vientiane at this time. I saw the paper with my own eyes that the embassy gave them as well as the message that came back from the immigration person when I was at school so this is not here say this is factual information. I'm afraid we're seeing a Cascade and domino effect of embassies shutting down certain foreigners wanting visas to come to Thailand. It began in Vientiane and will probably spread to all of them eventually

 

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[DrJack54]

Soon it will be only one or max 2 ed visa and next consecutive one denied. Few threads with rejection of ed visa not just in Vientiane. Current thread rejected in Saigon. However had history of visas. Problem is similar to Cambodia your pp could be returned with visa and void stamp. Makes for problem to return los if you don't have visa exempt option up your sleeve for border entry.

 

Edited August 24, 2019 by DrJack54

[JandT]

What doesnt make any sense is that the people are getting the documents from the Thai Ministry of Education giving them permission to study in Thailand and yet are still being denied at the embassy when they go to apply. If they don't want people to study in Thailand why are they even approving those documents in the first place?

Soon it will be only one or max 2 ed visa and next consecutive one denied. Few threads with rejection of ed visa not just in Vientiane. Current thread rejected in Saigon. However had history of visas. Problem is similar to Cambodia your pp could be returned with visa and void stamp. Makes for problem to return los if you don't have visa exempt option up your sleeve for border entry.
 

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[DrJack54]

7 minutes ago, JandT said:

What doesnt make any sense is that the people are getting the documents from the Thai Ministry of Education giving them permission to study in Thailand and yet are still being denied at the embassy when they go to apply. If they don't want people to study in Thailand why are they even approving those documents in the first place?

 

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The consulates are separate entities from Thai immigration, meaning border control and at airports. Yes its weird, you can obtain a visa at a consulate and still be denied entry. Especially at bkk airports if you have been "on continuous stay" in los. Problem is Thai imm have no set rules. An easy one would be X days max per calendar yr or whatever.

This makes it impossible to state with confidence if you can enter los, even with a visa

[Matzzon]

2 hours ago, JandT said:

I'm afraid we're seeing a Cascade and domino effect of embassies shutting down certain foreigners wanting visas to come to Thailand.

Nope, we are not! As you said the reason was that they want to see money. A perfectly fair requirement, due to that you can´t live and stay if you do not have. This is probably an effect of that too many people have been living on ED visas year after year, and attending 1-2 lessons per week, at the same time as working to have money for stay. I would say it´s a shape up and a smart move to get rid of a part of the people that otherwise would abuse their permission to stay.

[donnacha]

 

3 hours ago, JandT said:

The school contacted someone at immigration to ask them what was going on and they were told that Hanoi does not want to approve people who don't have money anymore. They only want people to come into Thailand that have money.

My top-secret contacts at the Hanoi Thai Embassy tell me that "no money" is code for scruffy clothes, visible tattoos, sandals, dreadlocks, facial piercings, and other forms of sartorial self-sabotage.

 

Wear a shirt when you go to an embassy or consulate folks!

 

[fforest1]

3 hours ago, Matzzon said:

Nope, we are not! As you said the reason was that they want to see money. A perfectly fair requirement, due to that you can´t live and stay if you do not have. This is probably an effect of that too many people have been living on ED visas year after year, and attending 1-2 lessons per week, at the same time as working to have money for stay. I would say it´s a shape up and a smart move to get rid of a part of the people that otherwise would abuse their permission to stay.

99.9% of farangs DO NOT take jobs from Thais...Never have....

Now Laos,Burma,Cambodia take millions of jobs from Thais...

Funny how no one here seems to ever make a stink about that....

ED visas are for students and students are generally not well off...When did students need to have fat bank books?

[JandT]

Wow this is the type of dumb response I've come to expect from people on this board.

Nope, we are not! As you said the reason was that they want to see money. A perfectly fair requirement, due to that you can´t live and stay if you do not have. This is probably an effect of that too many people have been living on ED visas year after year, and attending 1-2 lessons per week, at the same time as working to have money for stay. I would say it´s a shape up and a smart move to get rid of a part of the people that otherwise would abuse their permission to stay.

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[Ron jeremy]

2 hours ago, fforest1 said:

99.9% of farangs DO NOT take jobs from Thais...Never have....

Now Laos,Burma,Cambodia take millions of jobs from Thais...

Funny how no one here seems to ever make a stink about that....

ED visas are for students and students are generally not well off...When did students need to have fat bank books?

The Laos, Burmese, Cambodians do not take jobs from Thais.

the Thais are simply too <deleted>ng lazy to do the work. They seem to be above this type of work.

if it wasn't for a migrant workforce, SFA would get built in Thailand!

[fforest1]

53 minutes ago, Ron jeremy said:

The Laos, Burmese, Cambodians do not take jobs from Thais.

the Thais are simply too <deleted>ng lazy to do the work. They seem to be above this type of work.

if it wasn't for a migrant workforce, SFA would get built in Thailand!

I bet they take plenty of jobs Thais would like....But the point being there must be 10s of thousands of comments on here about farangs Possibly taking Thai jobs thus the need for HEAVY HEAVY visa crackdowns on farangs....Yet the Laos, Burmese, Cambodians get a completely free ride on here...WHY?

Sure the Laos, Burmese, Cambodians take bad jobs but I bet a good 20% of them take jobs Thais would want....

 

No one says kick the Laos, Burmese, Cambodians out of Thailand EVER same as the farangs... WHY NOT ???

[Ron jeremy]

57 minutes ago, fforest1 said:

I bet they take plenty of jobs Thais would like....But the point being there must be 10s of thousands of comments on here about farangs Possibly taking Thai jobs thus the need for HEAVY HEAVY visa crackdowns on farangs....Yet the Laos, Burmese, Cambodians get a completely free ride on here...WHY?

Sure the Laos, Burmese, Cambodians take bad jobs but I bet a good 20% of them take jobs Thais would want....

 

No one says kick the Laos, Burmese, Cambodians out of Thailand EVER same as the farangs... WHY NOT ???

If the Thais want the construction jobs, why don't they take them?

when was the last time, or first time you saw a Thai on a construction site??????????????????????????

im sure Thais get first dibs on these jobs.

again, above this type of work or simp,y to lazy to do it.

and proper visas are given to these migrant workers, 

Edited August 24, 2019 by Ron jeremy

[donnacha]

3 hours ago, fforest1 said:

I bet they take plenty of jobs Thais would like

No mate, you're dreaming. I've experienced this first-hand, countless times: a Thai will tell you how happy they are to have been hired, how grateful they are, how hard they will work ... then they simply don't turn up the next day because it turned out the job involved some trifling level of effort.

I'm not talking about bottom-of-the-barrel jobs, or working for some seedy farang, I am talking about real opportunities, working for and learning from talented Thais.

Forget, too, about training a Thai employee. There is no graver offense than suggesting that there might be a better way of doing something. Thais in their 20s simply will not tolerate that level of abuse.

As far as I have been able to figure it out, young Thais might be in chronic debt and almost entirely supported by their families, but they feel no pressure whatsoever to stick with any job that does not fulfill all their wildest fantasies. Meanwhile, the Burmese, Laos, and Hill-tribe folk will turn up, do the work, and eagerly grasp any opportunity you give them.

 

You know, this is exactly how the Thai-Chinese families ended up running the country.
 

Edited August 24, 2019 by donnacha

[onera1961]

6 hours ago, fforest1 said:

99.9% of farangs DO NOT take jobs from Thais...Never have....

But they do work without a work permit. 

[onera1961]

Let's not forget the reality that ED visa is a ruse for staying in Thailand. Nobody really wants to learn Thai just for the sake of learning the language. If they want to learn, they can learn Chinese. I understand the reason for learning Thai if you're in other type of visa like Business, retirement, etc. The ED visa for learning Thai  by itself is a farce and embassies have started to realize that. 

Edited August 24, 2019 by onera1961

[Odysseus123]

18 minutes ago, donnacha said:

As far as I have been able to figure it out, young Thais might be in chronic debt and almost entirely supported by their families, but they feel no pressure whatsoever to stick with any job that does not fulfill all their wildest fantasies. Meanwhile, the Burmese, Laos, and Hill-tribe folk will turn up, do the work, and eagerly grasp any opportunity you give them.

Very,very true...

 

The Thai males around my way used to sit in the little bar and smirk at the Burmese workers entering the factory across the road.

[donnacha]

13 minutes ago, onera1961 said:

But they do work without a work permit. 

 

2 minutes ago, onera1961 said:

The ED visa by itself is a farce and embassies have started to realize that. 

So, exactly what jobs, that could be performed by Thais, are being taken by people on Education visas?

As I have always understood it, Ed visas are a mechanism for foreigners to pay three times the annual minimum wage in order to stay in Thailand and pursue their doomed relationship with some bar girl.

The overwhelming majority bankroll this with money they have saved while working in the West, or have borrowed from their friends and family. In some cases, they work online, which deprives precisely no Thais of any job. All they are doing is magically generating money from the not-Thailand universe and, then, merrily spunking it into the Thai economy.

I really don't see a downside for Thailand there, beyond straightforward xenophobia.

[jacko45k]

4 minutes ago, donnacha said:

So, exactly what jobs, that could be performed by Thais, are being taken by people on Education visas?

That is not the point is it. If they are truly not studying, the Visa has been obtained under false pretenses. If they have jobs at all, they are working illegally.

Edited August 24, 2019 by jacko45k

[donnacha]

2 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

That is not the point is it. If they are truly not studying, the Visa has been obtained under false pretenses. If they have jobs at all, they are working illegally.

No, you are wrong. The intention of the pertinent laws is precisely expressed: the protection of Thai jobs. People working online for non-Thai clients are not working illegally, that is a myth, there is not such law.

The reality of education visas is that the students have to attend a certain minimum number of classes. That is enforced, with very specific guidelines, by the central immigration authorities. That is their responsibility. It is not the job of individual consulates to second guess that, no matter how shabby the applicants may be.

You may feel that the amount of time the visa holders are required to spend in classes is inadequate but, again, that is something that is decided centrally, not by you.

Let us never forget, regardless of the acrobatics no required to stay in Thailand, at the most basic level, any time that you as a westerner spend in Thailand, paying well above market rates for your accommodation and being charged farang price wherever you go, is a net positive for the Thai economy, particularly the local businesses into which you are injecting your filthy farang money.

The current xenophobic hysteria does not change that economic reality, although it is rapidly creating a terrible new economic reality for everyone in Thailand.

[jacko45k]

3 minutes ago, donnacha said:

No, you are wrong

No I am not...

If they have an ED Visa, they should be attending the required studies and even show proficiency. That is not usually the case, the schools are simply supplying a path to Visas. You need to attend a few classes to see the fact it is a scam to obtain visas, and give foreigners an opportunity to work as tour guides illegally.

 

You do not quote the pertinent law, so I am not as sure of the intention of it as you are. 

 

The cost of my accommodation is so irrelevant I am perplexed you brought it up. Nor has what tourists or foreigners spend any relation to Ed Visas. 

[donnacha]

37 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

No I am not...

No, trust me, you are.

 

37 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

If they have an ED Visa, they should be attending the required studies and even show proficiency.

 
That is an issue of enforcement.

 

37 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

That is not usually the case

So ... this is based on ... what? Anecdote? Your personal experience?

 

37 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

give foreigners an opportunity to work as tour guides illegally.

So, you're saying that Westerners are flooding into Thailand to work as ... tour guides?

 

37 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

You do not quote the pertinent law

I am saying that there is no such law, which means I do not have to quote it. Sorry if this is difficult for you. If you are saying that there IS a law, you are the one who must specify it.

 

37 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

The cost of my accommodation is so irrelevant I am perplexed you brought it up. Nor has what tourists or foreigners spend any relation to Ed Visas.

Again, sorry if I have pitched this above your cognitive abilities. That point I was clearly making was that each Ed visa recipient, even the scruffy ones, are injecting money into Thailand. They are a net profit for the country.

A low-level Vietnamese administrative worker in the Thai consulate should not, based on their own prejudices, be overriding the safeguards that are already in place. If those safeguards are not sufficient, they should be strengthened or more forcefully enforced by the relevant Thai authorities.

The current rules are in place, and enforced to the extent they are, precisely because it has been decided that is the correct balance for Thailand's current needs.

Believe it or not, there is a substantial majority of Thais who are happy to have foreigners pay three times the annual minimum wage for a visa, and then a load more money on living costs, simply in order to spend time in Thailand. They actually think we are lunatics who are throwing our money away.

Hardcore nationalists, on the other hand, are not happy with any foreigners being in Thailand, but they are a tiny minority who would not have any authority in a normal democratic situation. They only have influence now because the junta are desperate to leap upon any potentially popular bandwagon.

 

Edited August 25, 2019 by donnacha

[Martyp]

Maybe Thailand needs a major overhaul in the types of classes that would qualify for an ED visa. If a student has little prospect of staying long term in Thailand then it is hard to see why they would want or need to take a couple of years of Thai language classes. Make the language ED visa be more like continuing education in the US. Language for teachers. Language for business. Cultural exchange with schools and organizations outside Thailand. Certificate programs. Maybe a light language class for tourists - one time only. That might go a long way to cut down on fraudulent use of this visa.

 

In parallel, there should be some way to allow those under 50 to stay here longer if they can demonstrate that they have the financial means to to so outside of a work permit.

Edited August 25, 2019 by Martyp

[donnacha]

2 minutes ago, Martyp said:

If a student has little prospect of staying long term in Thailand then it is hard to see why they would want or need to take a couple of years of Thai language classes.

There are people who develop a real interest in fringe languages. As a kid, I was always astonished to come across Japanese who has painstakingly become fluent in the Irish language (sometimes known as Gaelic) when the vast majority of Irish had little or no interest in it.

A common tenant within Thai nationalism holds that Thai language and culture are superior and, of course, more pure than others. This orthodoxy is upheld, in particular, by the Thai academic industry. The idea that foreigners want to learn to speak Thai flatters that position. It also pumps a lot of money, jobs, and prestige into the academic institutions.

The same goes for the religious institutions, it massively boosts their credibility when a Westerner decides he wants to dress up in an orange robe for a few years, and credibility is everything in Thailand.

So, yes, you have to provide these visa exceptions in any country. Sure, some schools might take advantage by not enforcing attendance, but that is no different from any other institution in Thailand. Even the Immigration Officers pay for their promotions.

 

Again, it is not the job of foreign consulates or even airport Immigration Officers to decide that they are going to fix the system. If a student is registered at an officially recognized school, that is sufficient. If the school flaunts the rules too blatantly, it should lose its accreditation. Simple.

[Matzzon]

8 hours ago, fforest1 said:

99.9% of farangs DO NOT take jobs from Thais...Never have....

Now Laos,Burma,Cambodia take millions of jobs from Thais...

Funny how no one here seems to ever make a stink about that....

ED visas are for students and students are generally not well off...When did students need to have fat bank books?

If you take a job from a Thai or not, is irrelevant. You´re not allowed to work without a work permit. As a digital nomad you can not get one. Therefore that is by law forbidden, and that´s what they start to clamp down on.

 

If students are not generally well off, is probably true. Also irrelevant, due to that you need to have enough for stay in a foreign country during your studies because it´s forbidden to work. That´s the rules in Thailand now, because too many have been abusing the system. Either live with it, or consider taking studies elswhere.

I have always been living on the right visa/extension, lived up to the written requirements. Now me and all that has done the right thing are also suffering the consequences of tougher and more stringent extension and visa regulations all over the line. That just because there has been to many that abused the system.

[Matzzon]

8 hours ago, JandT said:

Wow this is the type of dumb response I've come to expect from people on this board.

 

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Why do you post a comment like that? What grounds do you have for calling it dumb. Many of the people living here for long time is today feeling the pressure, just because Thailand and Immigration are tired and angry about too many abusing the system in the past, and now they are doing something to prevent that.

If you have another explaination I am happy to read that, insted of just getting out of the conversation by calling something dumb without any thing to back it up. Or maybe you have just too much experience of the abuse I am talking about and are feeling the pressure just because of that particular reason, therefore calling it dumb,

[donnacha]

9 minutes ago, Matzzon said:

You´re not allowed to work without a work permit. As a digital nomad you can not get one.

You need a work permit to take a job in Thailand - you literally have to apply for it via your Thai employer.

Digital nomads have sourced their work elsewhere. They are not working for a Thai employer. There is no permit they could apply for ... because what they are doing in Thailand is not a job.

They would not like to hear this but, essentially, digital nomads are simply a type of tourist. Long before someone dreamed up the phrase "digital nomad", travelers were frequently working on various plans or presentations or their great American novel while lying by the pool. It had been absolutely accepted by all countries for over a century that they have no interest in the personal work that tourists bring on vacation with them.

Seriously, this subject has been beaten to death. It is up to YOU to specify the actual Thai law that makes remote work illegal here. Because there isn't one.

 

 

16 minutes ago, Matzzon said:

I have always been living on the right visa/extension, lived up to the written requirements. Now me and all that has done the right thing are also suffering the consequences

I sympathize, but that still does not magically bring non-existant laws into existence.

[donnacha]

17 minutes ago, Matzzon said:

Why do you post a comment like that? What grounds do you have for calling it dumb.

To be fair, you crashed into @JandT's thread and callously justified the pointless and hostile bureaucracy that is affecting his life in Thailand, and them immediately moaned about how the increasingly hostile environment is making your life more difficult.

I would not use the word dumb, that would be unkind, the word confused is more fair. Try to see beyond your own immediate situation and feel some solidarity with people experiencing different forms of exactly the same problem as you.

 

[Martyp]

2 hours ago, donnacha said:

There are people who develop a real interest in fringe languages. As a kid, I was always astonished to come across Japanese who has painstakingly become fluent in the Irish language (sometimes known as Gaelic) when the vast majority of Irish had little or no interest in it.

A common tenant within Thai nationalism holds that Thai language and culture are superior and, of course, more pure than others. This orthodoxy is upheld, in particular, by the Thai academic industry. The idea that foreigners want to learn to speak Thai flatters that position. It also pumps a lot of money, jobs, and prestige into the academic institutions.

The same goes for the religious institutions, it massively boosts their credibility when a Westerner decides he wants to dress up in an orange robe for a few years, and credibility is everything in Thailand.

So, yes, you have to provide these visa exceptions in any country. Sure, some schools might take advantage by not enforcing attendance, but that is no different from any other institution in Thailand. Even the Immigration Officers pay for their promotions.

 

Again, it is not the job of foreign consulates or even airport Immigration Officers to decide that they are going to fix the system. If a student is registered at an officially recognized school, that is sufficient. If the school flaunts the rules too blatantly, it should lose its accreditation. Simple.

I mostly don’t disagree. That is why I suggested some sort of overhaul of this category of visa. Interest in fringe languages is along the lines of people that might want to learn Thai dance, Thai textiles, agricultural practices, and culture in general. Educational but not tourist and not long stay.

 

Removing accreditation probably needs some enforcement but is difficult even in the US. 

 

I disagree about Immigration officers. IO’s in every country have discretion to question people at the border. It would be better if the Immigration Department coordinated with the Ministry of Foreign Affaires on their experience with visas and Immigration.

 

Of course every very foreigner is spending foreign money here and contributing to the economy. However the big money is in tourism, business, and maybe Expats in general. Those coming on ED visas are a small blip on the economic radar. It is hard to justify ED visa policy on the economics of it. A better Immigration policy about promoting Thai culture would benefit Thailand’s image though.

[Matzzon]

2 hours ago, donnacha said:

You need a work permit to take a job in Thailand - you literally have to apply for it via your Thai employer.

Digital nomads have sourced their work elsewhere. They are not working for a Thai employer. There is no permit they could apply for ... because what they are doing in Thailand is not a job.

They would not like to hear this but, essentially, digital nomads are simply a type of tourist. Long before someone dreamed up the phrase "digital nomad", travelers were frequently working on various plans or presentations or their great American novel while lying by the pool. It had been absolutely accepted by all countries for over a century that they have no interest in the personal work that tourists bring on vacation with them.

Seriously, this subject has been beaten to death. It is up to YOU to specify the actual Thai law that makes remote work illegal here. Because there isn't one.

 

 

I sympathize, but that still does not magically bring non-existant laws into existence.

Dream on. What I write is why they clamp down on issuing easy visa and extensions nowadays. It stands clearly in the law, that you are not allowed to work in Thailand, without a work permit. That regardsa all lines of work. You have the category of work that digital nomads do described. If it regards virtual or real work is not mentioned. Therefore the laws will act on both kind of work.

[Matzzon]

1 hour ago, donnacha said:

To be fair, you crashed into @JandT's thread and callously justified the pointless and hostile bureaucracy that is affecting his life in Thailand, and them immediately moaned about how the increasingly hostile environment is making your life more difficult.

I would not use the word dumb, that would be unkind, the word confused is more fair. Try to see beyond your own immediate situation and feel some solidarity with people experiencing different forms of exactly the same problem as you.

 

What I am writing on a daily basis on this forum, is appearently what many posters need to hear over and over, because they do not understand otherwise. I take care of my problems according to the letter of the law, and that´s what all people that need an ED-visa have to do to. If that regards showing a required amount of money or if they have to apply in their home country, both or something else is not important. Just that everybody learns to not abuse the system is important.

[donnacha]

37 minutes ago, Martyp said:

Those coming on ED visas are a small blip on the economic radar. It is hard to justify ED visa policy on the economics of it. A better Immigration policy about promoting Thai culture would benefit Thailand’s image though.

It is not about the scale of the economic contribution, it is the binary question of whether or not it contributes positively overall.

I would apply that to any category of visa, and it is the question the junta should have asked themselves before so ridiculously tightening all visa requirements in 2015:

"While not all tourists spend big money, are there any tourists who make an overall contribution that is negative?

"And, if such 'bad guys' do exist, might there be some way to weed them out that is more effective than asking poorly-educated, over-worked Immigration Officers to make snap decisions based upon a combination of bias, racism and hangover.

"Rather than turn away visitors on a hunch, might it be possible to have local police arrest farangs who are caught working in restaurants or factories? Rather than destroy our tourist industry, might it be possible to introduce a hefty fine for rogue companies who hire foreigners without permits?

"Might it be possible to simply arrest, blacklist and deport the tiny number of foreigners who end up begging or sleeping rough, and presume that all the rest do actually have enough money to look after themselves?

 

If it was simply a question of money, pretty much any gateway for Westerners to spend more time in Thailand would be considered a good thing. Unfortunately, and somewhat surprisingly, it is now no longer about money.

Students everywhere are mostly delusional, mostly wasting their time. In any university, the vast majority spend very little time actually thinking about their supposed subject. The Thai education visa never had anything to do with what the foreigner did or did not learn. The goal was never academic rigor. It was about pouring money into underfunded academic institutions. It fulfilled that purpose admirably for decades, with no notable downsides.

Equally, the current moves against the education visa have nothing to do with what is learned, or the cultural image of Thailand. It is about a growing sentiment against farangs being in the country for any reason. They aren't going to suddenly be satisfied when they get rid of all the "fake" students. This is about sloughing away as many education visas as possible, making it increasingly impractical until you all just go away and a hardened rump of people who feel they must be here cough up the money for an Elite visa - foreigners who can pay that much, okay, they are willing to tolerate.

Edited August 25, 2019 by donnacha