Just how important is Free Speech?

[Chazar]

19 minutes ago, Yinn said:

you not invention the plane

you  would do well to separate "you " as to "another country"  because you  lump together anything not Thai with maybe an exception for local  surrounding countries as one country "farangland"

[dick dasterdly]

4 minutes ago, Chazar said:

I  guess  the problem worldwide is  if  you cant understand any problem you  cant decide how to solve  it and not everyone is  smart, everyone has a  set  ability to understand only so  much. Take  global warming I  cannot  understand  a lot of  it.

So every govt. should only consist of a panel of 'experts' - certainly not politicians?

 

Sadly this wouldn't work, as genuine experts have no interest in political power.

 

But this is WAY off-topic on where the line should be drawn when it comes to freedom of speech.

Edited August 29, 2019 by dick dasterdly

[JamesBlond]

Free speech is impossible. Nobody can handle the truth any more. Back in the 70s you could say anything. Not any more - not even on the internet and not even among mates in the pub. I gave up on society long ago - any society. I now patronise them by my pragmatic silence.

I have withdrawn to my own little world of completely free thought, unhindered by what anyone else says or think. It's great in there, I can say absolutely anything, with only me listening. Without having to filter my ideas through society's neurotic net I can tackle any issue with complete candour and clarity. I've got it all all written down too - several million words - but when I am dead they will probably take one look at it and burn it all because of one word they don't like. Their loss.

[Chazar]

4 minutes ago, thaicurious said:

So in America we put constraints & guidances on free speech. Free speech is not a free-for-all speech: yelling fire in theater, etc.

It  should be, because these  days the lack of free  speech worldwide is becoming alarming in even western countries.

[Chazar]

Just now, JamesBlond said:

Free speech is impossible. Nobody can handle the truth any more. Back in the 70s you could say anything. Not any more - not even on the internet and not even among mates in the pub. I gave up on society long ago - any society. I now patronise them by my pragmatic silence.

I have withdrawn to my own little world of completely free thought, unhindered by what anyone else says or think. It's great in there, I can say absolutely anything, with only me listening. Without having to filter my ideas through society's neurotic net I can tackle any issue with complete candour and clarity. I've got it all all written down too - several million words - but when I am dead they will probably take one look at it and burn it all because of one word they don't like. Their loss.

I  happily  spent  most of  my  life  alone due to work, Id  have all day arguments with myself and I neve r lost yet!!???? but i   fully appreciate EXACTLY what you are  saying, I try to get away from other people as  much as possible.

[Berkshire]

22 minutes ago, Chazar said:

24 minutes ago, Yinn said:

The leader of the farang world

There is  no "farang world" you mean AMERICA, I had no say in Mr Trumps position I am not AMERICAN  we dont get a "farang"  vote you  know.

The President of the USA is often considered to be the leader of the free world.  And in some ways, it does reflect badly on farangs...the fact that Trump is a farang and a pathological liar.   

[BestB]

Free speech , democracy and all that is nothing but big words to please masses.

 

Many still under illusion that back to western countries we have Democracy or free speech . We do not.

 

We are watched one way or another and do as we are told and we follow it without even realising.

 

can not speak for other countries, but in Oz try to pull your right of free speech and will find yourself either arrested or given directive by police to move on and if disagree arrested .

 

 

[kellersphuket]

just to clarify, this topic was not aimed only at Thailand.

It should be a discussion on Free Speech around the world, including the west.

 

My view is that people these days get offended by just about anything.

They take everything to heart when what they should be doing is conjuring up a counter argument in their head to put their side across.

 

Many times I have been called negative when sat at a bar for disagreeing with or showing disdain for a person/situation. The negativity card is also a tool that is used by people to curb free speech.

[gunderhill]

3 minutes ago, Berkshire said:

The President of the USA is often considered to be the leader of the free world.  And in some ways, it does reflect badly on farangs...the fact that Trump is a farang and a pathological liar.   

I  think his  point was "farang" isn't one  country.

[Yinn]

17 minutes ago, Chazar said:

you  would do well to separate "you " as to "another country"  because you  lump together anything not Thai with maybe an exception for local  surrounding countries as one country "farangland"

Farang land start in England/west Europe.

 

but they go to Australia and kill the native, rape and takeover. So Australia in farangland now.

same in Canada.

and USA. But also take the Africa slafes.

and New Zealand

 

And some other place. Like that.

understand?

 

Edited August 29, 2019 by Yinn

[Chazar]

3 minutes ago, kellersphuket said:

My view is that people these days get offended by just about anything.

Correct and the Thai way because its a  Thai forum highlights  this  in many of Yinns  replies and I  dont single her/him out there arent many Thai posters, I wish there  were more.

[Chazar]

7 minutes ago, Yinn said:

Farang land start in England/west Europe.

 

but they go to Australia and kill the native, rape and takeover. So Australia in

farangland now.

same in Canada.

and USA. But also take the Africa slafes.

and New Zealand

 

And some other place. Like that.

understand?

 

No thats plain wrong and you are  slipping into ridiculous answers because you dont like some if  not  all of  my  replies, so   how about Arabs? Indians? Russians, could  you  tell a  Russian from an English man to  look at? is a  Russian a Farang?

Edited August 29, 2019 by Chazar

[Chazar]

4 minutes ago, Yinn said:

But also take the Africa slafes

Ok if  you want to go down this  route I find it childish, modern slavery is alive and well and based  very much in Asia, India and many other Asian countries, slavery in Africa  was practiced by the Africans themselves during their own wars way before "farang land" (European) slave traders  arrived. 

 

[dick dasterdly]

17 minutes ago, thaicurious said:

In America, land of the 1st Amendment, what would have happened had mentally weak Trump--handicapped by the overabundance of white matter in his brain which forces him to make associations that don't exist in reality--lied while testifying under oath had he the courage to speak with Mueller? Is it free speech that he'd not be able to lie without consequence? Is that he has told to the American public, to the world, 12,000 lies in 950 days an example of this free speech?

 

So in America we put constraints & guidances on free speech. Free speech is not a free-for-all speech: yelling fire in theater, etc.

 

And then there is right speech....

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_Eightfold_Path

what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, and from idle chatter...Samaññaphala Sutta states that a part of a monk's virtue is that "he abstains from false speech. He speaks the truth, holds to the truth, is firm, reliable, no deceiver of the world..."
 

Does this mean that all truth said in free speech is right speech?

 

"A truth that’s told with bad intent

Beats all the lies you can invent."~~William Blake

"Free speech is not a free-for-all speech: yelling fire in theater, etc."

 

You're seriously putting this up as an example as to why free speech needs to be restricted even more ??

 

The rest of your post is just a reiteration of 'ban anything I don't like' - and has nothing to do with the interesting question on where the line should be drawn when it comes to free speech.

[Berkshire]

7 minutes ago, kellersphuket said:

just to clarify, this topic was not aimed only at Thailand.

It should be a discussion on Free Speech around the world, including the west.

 

My view is that people these days get offended by just about anything.

They take everything to heart when what they should be doing is conjuring up a counter argument in their head to put their side across.

 

Many times I have been called negative when sat at a bar for disagreeing with or showing disdain for a person/situation. The negativity card is also a tool that is used by people to curb free speech.

Are you suggesting that people should have a right to offend with impunity?  An important aspect of free speech is that ALL people are allowed to express their views, including those who are offended.  If those who are offended do not speak up for fear of being labelled PC, then it's not really free speech, is it?

[Chazar]

24 minutes ago, <deleted> dasterdly said:

So every govt. should only consist of a panel of 'experts' - certainly not politicians?

 

Sadly this wouldn't work, as genuine experts have no interest in political power.

 

But this is WAY off-topic on where the line should be drawn when it comes to freedom of speech.

I  have no answer,  what do you  think?

[Yinn]

5 minutes ago, Chazar said:

No thats plain wrong and you are  slipping into ridiculous answers because you dont like some if  not  all of  my  replies

 

Free speech. Up to me.

5 minutes ago, Chazar said:

 

 

, so   how about Arabs? Indians?

 

Kairk

 

5 minutes ago, Chazar said:

 

 

Russians, could  you  tell a  Russian form an English man to  look at?

 

Yes

5 minutes ago, Chazar said:

 

 

 

is a  Russian a Farang?

No. 

[White Christmas13]

5 minutes ago, Yinn said:

Free speech. Up to me.

Kairk

 

Yes

No. 

if free speech is up to you why don't you go and criticize your so called elected government see what happens to you and let us know what it is like in Bangkok Hilton

[Chazar]

25 minutes ago, Yinn said:

Free speech. Up to me.

ah but it upsets me and thus is  not the Thai way...........however thats not what i really think,

I doubt very  much by  looking at a  Russian you could  tell anything except  not Thai and even then Russia  covers  such a  vast area that there are many different racial characteristics.

OK whats your view on Les Majeste  law? golly  we are almost having a  discussion.

Edited August 29, 2019 by Chazar

[kellersphuket]

9 minutes ago, Berkshire said:

Are you suggesting that people should have a right to offend with impunity?  An important aspect of free speech is that ALL people are allowed to express their views, including those who are offended.  If those who are offended do not speak up for fear of being labelled PC, then it's not really free speech, is it?

Free speech should be exactly that. Free. 

 

Free to speak whatever is on the mind of any individual without fear of being ostracized, flogged or put in handcuffs. If a person is offended by what is said in a conversation then that is not the fault of the person doing the talking. That person has the right to rebut, walk away or whatever..

 

The day that governments and authorities start policing words & thoughts is the day that society as a whole is no longer considered free.

Edited August 29, 2019 by kellersphuket

[Chazar]

4 minutes ago, Yinn said:

No. 

My Wife  (Thai)  calls  Russians farangs so which is it?

[Chazar]

1 minute ago, kellersphuket said:

Free speech should be exactly that. Free. 

 

Free to speak whatever is on the mind of any individual.

If a person is offended by what is said in a conversation then that is not the fault of the person doing the talking. That person has the right to rebut, walk  away or whatever..

 

The day that governments and authorities start policing words & thoughts is the day that society as a whole is no longer considered free.

EXACTLY if  someone says  something deeply  offensive...so what, anybody able to think would easily ignore it or counter it, it  all changes when violence enters the arena.....ps  your  Mother was  ugly and as for  your  Father "who  knows"???? you Mother doesnt????

Actually  my Dad once said  something to me like that "  youll always know who your  mother is"???? quite what he was trying to  tell me?

[thaicurious]

13 minutes ago, Chazar said:

It  should be, because these  days the lack of free  speech worldwide is becoming alarming in even western countries.

But there's also this little thing called the internet which increases free speech worldwide. Sadly, that can cause pain even when pain is not the intent, this communication crossing borders.

 

Just imagine being gay, for instance, in country where they kill gays for being gay, yet having access to twitter and youtube, to outside countries gaining rights that might seem so impossible to reach. Their free speech has become your torment. Just one of the many issues. That to think in terms of absolutes doesn't answer the problems.

 

8 minutes ago, Berkshire said:

...it does reflect badly on farangs...the fact that Trump is a farang and a pathological liar.   

I think we'll know that better after 2020. We can write that off as, hey, we were just trying something. Or we can admit that enough of our electorate was bamboozled by a con man, the likes of which is precisely what the electoral college was meant to protect us from, but failed, as long as the pathogen is removed from office.

 

If so, then we can say, look, the system works, like a screen door works. a mosquito got it while some GOP was holding the door open too long, but the system fixed that, and America will resume.

 

5 minutes ago, BestB said:

Free speech , democracy and all that is nothing but big words to please masses.

 

Many still under illusion that back to western countries we have Democracy or free speech . We do not.

 

We are watched one way or another and do as we are told and we follow it without even realising.

 

can not speak for other countries, but in Oz try to pull your right of free speech and will find yourself either arrested or given directive by police to move on and if disagree arrested .

Seems a tad cynical. Were that entirely true, even if you can cite cases, then society would never have changed. Things would never improve. Certainly in America. more people enjoy more civil rights now than ever before, because there is Democracy.

 

That doesn't mean you don't always have to fight to keep what you've gained. But that you can gain, that you can fight to keep your gains that benefit the greater society, that's Democracy.

[Chazar]

2 minutes ago, thaicurious said:

Just imagine being gay, for instance, in country where they kill gays for being gay

Which is a  reason for free  speech, its a  dilemma  granted but "overall"  free  should  mean free however offensive. Countries where they  kill  gays of  course ludicrous, appalling etc everyone knows  castration is the answer.................ok its a  joke and it  may be offensive BUT I  should be able to say it. And  just in case any reader  thinks I do mean it..........duh

[Solinvictus]

7 minutes ago, kellersphuket said:

Free speech should be exactly that. Free. 

 

Free to speak whatever is on the mind of any individual without fear of being ostracized, flogged or put in handcuffs. If a person is offended by what is said in a conversation then that is not the fault of the person doing the talking. That person has the right to rebut, walk away or whatever..

 

The day that governments and authorities start policing words & thoughts is the day that society as a whole is no longer considered free.

Very well put. Actually you're spot as the beginning foundations for free speech, especially in the US were with our personal liberty at the foremost front of importance.

 

What we have today is the corporate and State controlled media altering and manufacturing consent aimed at changing peoples willingness to give up such liberties.  It's only going to get worse IMO.

[Chazar]

5 minutes ago, thaicurious said:

I think we'll know that better after 2020. We can write that off as, hey, we were just trying something. Or we can admit that enough of our electorate was bamboozled by a con man, the likes of which is precisely what the electoral college was meant to protect us from

And we  can say anything about it and some of the comments about him I find quite  offensive, he was elected in, good  or  bad, he  will be voted  out at some  point, I dont support him or not  support him I have no interest, if  any the interest would be that he actually  got  in.

To swing it back to Thailand of course mentioning the " unmentionable" is  not  allowed, always makes  me laugh, Thai Visa  has to LOCK virtually  all royal  threads, announcements, I  fully  understand their reason why as naughty farlangs with their lack of  "obedience" will demolish them.

[thaicurious]

19 minutes ago, <deleted> dasterdly said:

"Free speech is not a free-for-all speech: yelling fire in theater, etc."

 

You're seriously putting this up as an example as to why free speech needs to be restricted even more ??

 

The rest of your post is just a reiteration of 'ban anything I don't like' - and has nothing to do with the interesting question on where the line should be drawn when it comes to free speech.

You've misread.

[Chazar]

6 minutes ago, Solinvictus said:

Very well put. Actually you're spot as the beginning foundations for free speech, especially in the US were with our personal liberty at the foremost front of importance.

 

What we have today is the corporate and State controlled media altering and manufacturing consent aimed at changing peoples willingness to give up such liberties.  It's only going to get worse IMO.

It already has and with the new "surveillance" systems facial recognition and such its becoming Orwellian in  ways he couldnt have imagined.

"security"  you  know, yep so  right, NOT

Edited August 29, 2019 by Chazar

[Chazar]

18 minutes ago, White Christmas13 said:

if free speech is up to you why don't you go and criticize your so called elected government see what happens to you and let us know what it is like in Bangkok Hilton

Bit extreme, saw the Uk govt denied  entry to  some right wing folk a while  back which I thought was pretty bad not  allowing them entry.

[Joe Mcseismic]

17 minutes ago, kellersphuket said:

Free speech should be exactly that. Free. 

 

Free to speak whatever is on the mind of any individual without fear of being ostracized, flogged or put in handcuffs. If a person is offended by what is said in a conversation then that is not the fault of the person doing the talking. That person has the right to rebut, walk away or whatever..

 

The day that governments and authorities start policing words & thoughts is the day that society as a whole is no longer considered free.

So what about all the "free speech" that the Hutus of Rwanda broadcast from the TVs and radios? You know, the speeches that exhorted the majority Hutus to kill all the minority Tutsis.

 

What about Donald Trump's propensity to lie and lie and lie. Does that also come under free speech?

 

There are no easy answers here. It's not a black and white issue.