Just how important is Free Speech?

[OneMoreFarang]

52 minutes ago, <deleted> dasterdly said:

"when educated smart people know that those politicians are lying?"

 

And this is how to make it very clear that you are more than very biased and believe that only your version of "educated smart" should have a say in anything ☹️.

What is your problem with educated and smart people?

I.e. if your chest hurt, do you go to see a doctor, maybe a specialist, who is smart and educated? Or do you ask your neighbor who is probably not a specialist?

And the same is obviously true with almost every field. There are lots of smart educated people out there and they know a lot more about their specialty field than most other people. We shouldn't blindly believe everything they say and maybe we should think about their motives. But I think we definitely should listen to their expertise knowledge.

That doesn't mean that someone who didn't study is stupid. It also does not man that i.e. a plumber is not as smart as a medical doctor. They have different expertise and why should we follow the advice of an amateur if we could get advice from a specialist?

[thaicurious]

7 minutes ago, Chazar said:

Which is a  reason for free  speech, its a  dilemma  granted but "overall"  free  should  mean free however offensive. Countries where they  kill  gays of  course ludicrous, appalling etc everyone knows  castration is the answer.................ok its a  joke and it  may be offensive BUT I  should be able to say it. And  just in case any reader  thinks I do mean it..........duh

I lean towards a generous definition of free speech and I think the USA has done a pretty good job at that. But also I monitor my own speech. For instance in America I don't shut up about politics. But just like I don't tell people what they should do in their own relationships that don't directly involve me, I have no problem not participating in politics that are not mine. Their relationship is not my business. Now if I see something horrendous happening in my face, spouse abuse in a relationship or child trafficking in the apartment next to me even if in a a country hosting me, then morals obligate me to exercise free speech, to either intervene carefully or report even if anonymously.

 

Free speech doesn't always mean yelling in someone's face about what they'd rather not hear. Sometimes it is a whisper.

[Chazar]

1 minute ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

So what about all the "free speech" that the Hutus of Rwanda broadcast from the TVs and radios? You know, the speeches that exhorted the majority Hutus to kill all the minority Tutsis.

 

What about Donald Trump's propensity to lie and lie and lie. Does that also come under free speech?

 

There are no easy answers here. It's not a black and white issue.

No it isnt and  one of the reasons has to be "peer pressure" from a group of individuals who probably use fear intimidation and violence along with early age brainwashing ( religion is one major example) they spread their message, thats the difference, saying is  fine but when it changes  to "doing" as in VIOLENCE it becomes something else.

I  think the main thing is being taught the ability to think for yourself rationally, being told something as a  fact by parents  from birth is a huge amount of pressure.

[Chazar]

1 minute ago, thaicurious said:

I lean towards a generous definition of free speech and I think the USA has done a pretty good job at that. But also I monitor my own speech. For instance in America I don't shut up about politics. But just like I don't tell people what they should do in their own relationships that don't directly involve me, I have no problem not participating in politics that are not mine. Their relationship is not my business. Now if I see something horrendous happening in my face, spouse abuse in a relationship or child trafficking in the apartment next to me even if in a a country hosting me, then morals obligate me to exercise free speech, to either intervene carefully or report even if anonymously.

 

Free speech doesn't always mean yelling in someone's face about what they'd rather not hear. Sometimes it is a whisper.

But a whisper can still be heard, overall Id  agree  though.

Once I saw a  woman being dragged  down the street by her husband by her hair I did intervene in the UK many years ago albeit only to notify the Police who told me she didn't want to do anything about it. Up to her freedom.

Watch the Hail Satan movie i found  it  extremely interesting.

Why do the american  dollar  bills  have " in god  we  trust" on them at all?

[Berkshire]

24 minutes ago, kellersphuket said:

30 minutes ago, Berkshire said:

Are you suggesting that people should have a right to offend with impunity?  An important aspect of free speech is that ALL people are allowed to express their views, including those who are offended.  If those who are offended do not speak up for fear of being labelled PC, then it's not really free speech, is it?

Free speech should be exactly that. Free. 

 

Free to speak whatever is on the mind of any individual without fear of being ostracized, flogged or put in handcuffs. If a person is offended by what is said in a conversation then that is not the fault of the person doing the talking. That person has the right to rebut, walk away or whatever..

 

The day that governments and authorities start policing words & thoughts is the day that society as a whole is no longer considered free.

I actually enjoy a spirited debate about free speech.  I was responding to a comment you made previously which was "My view is that people these days get offended by just about anything."  Not just you, but many times I see people criticizing "political correctness" when in fact, this is a form of free speech.  So basically, those that criticize PC are criticizing free speech.

[Chazar]

9 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Or do you ask your neighbor who is probably not a specialist?

I  thought you just drunk some urine?

Edited August 29, 2019 by Chazar

[Chazar]

1 minute ago, Berkshire said:

I actually enjoy a spirited debate about free speech.  I was responding to a comment you made previously which was "My view is that people these days get offended by just about anything."  Not just you, but many times I see people criticizing "political correctness" when in fact, this is a form of free speech.  So basically, those that criticize PC are criticizing free speech.

But would PC  people  allow free  speech? I  think non pc  people would allow pc speech.

[poohy]

IMHO

Thailand and a forum hosted in Thailand wishing not to offend its hosts and protect itself fiscally Is not the best place for free speech

[Chazar]

1 hour ago, Isaanbiker said:

And it's your wasted time

So  why  get  all  irate  about  it, its not  your  time, practice what you preach and leave others to debate positively or negatively, although I respect your freedom to  comment on it in anyway in any manner.

 

[Chazar]

1 minute ago, poohy said:

IMHO

Thailand and a forum hosted in Thailand wishing not to offend its hosts and protect itself fiscally Is not the best place for free speech

lovely weather were  having????

[kellersphuket]

To use religion as an example here:

 

Personally I am an Atheist. 

I have attended churches, mosques, synagogues, temples etc in the past for various religious ceremonies.

 

To me, whoever is doing the preaching at any particular place of worship is blatantly lying to all in attendance. He/she is bending the truth to suit their religions agenda. This has been going on for thousands of years, and can be particularly dangerous when that agenda is mixed with messages laced in evil. I also believe that preaching to children in schools about religion is wrong, as it teaches them to value dogma over truth.

 

Now, do I think that just because some twisted individuals of this world have decided to take it upon themselves and put an evil spin onto their religious ideology that all religions should be banned? No, of course not. Do I think that people (particularly children) should be better educated about these matters so as when they reach a certain age they can be able to question their own beliefs? Absolutely.

 

Free speech, for better or worse should be available to everyone, regardless of the topic being discussed, but so should education. Just as they teach the bible in American & western schools they should also put a huge emphasis on critical thinking to help children discern fact from fiction from a young age. This should also apply to non-western schools/institutions.

 

The system has a duty to educate the young by using the truth, not social conditioning. 

Edited August 29, 2019 by kellersphuket

[Berkshire]

12 minutes ago, Chazar said:

But would PC  people  allow free  speech? I  think non pc  people would allow pc speech.

Of course.  People who are politically correct aren't against free speech.  They're simply against offending people.  And on the opposite spectrum, people who criticize political correctness....I'm pretty sure these folks would have a problem if the free speech directed at them was personally offensive. 

Edited August 29, 2019 by Berkshire

[Memento Mori]

Free speech? What's the definition of free speech? Does that mean that every thought you have, can be translated into words? Example: you get a ticket for speeding. You think the policeman is an <deleted> for giving you that ticket. You translate your thoughts into words: mister policeman, you are an <deleted>. Doesn't probably help you, does it?

 

So, as a general rule, there is no freedom of speech never, ever. Your thoughts are totally free but your speech is not.

Edited August 29, 2019 by Memento Mori
typo

[Chazar]

6 minutes ago, Berkshire said:

They're simply against offending people

They are deciding whats offensive and you can take  offense at literally anything, offended or  not free speech on anything should remain otherwise youll never  know what anyone really  thinks.....nice  clothes emperor.

[Chazar]

4 minutes ago, Memento Mori said:

Doesn't probably help you, does it?

No  but you  should be  allowed to  tell him that and he should be  able enough to  rebut it with "its the law"  if  you dont like it vote xyz next time.

[kellersphuket]

The problem with taking the politically correct stance is that you never quite know what you say will offend someone or not.

 

If you take that stance every time you open your mouth you basically deny yourself the right to talk.

 

Someone could be offended by something as trivial as you saying something like "oh, I really like a good piece of cheese." That person may be a staunch vegan and have taken a deep disliking to the comment you have just made, but to you it was just a passing comment that meant next to nothing (other than proclaiming your love for cheese)..

 

You see what ridiculous path this political correctness will inevitably lead you down.

[Berkshire]

3 minutes ago, Chazar said:

They are deciding whats offensive and you can take  offense at literally anything, offended or  not free speech on anything should remain otherwise youll never  know what anyone really  thinks.....nice  clothes emperor.

Now you're just being obtuse.  Individuals don't necessarily get to "decide" what's offensive in any society, it's generally agreed upon by the collective.  It's called community standards.  That's why even in the USA, you can't say certain words on public television.

 

I'll give you another example...in Thailand.  A few farangs have decided that the word "farang" is offensive.  But the Thai community doesn't agree.  Heck, even the farang community doesn't agree.  So no, farang is not considered an offensive word.   

[cmsally]

Most people don't like to be told they are fat (if they are). Ironically if they were told so and acted upon it, it might increase their life and health for a considerable amount of years.

Guilt (from the fact they might get very sick) once drove me to tell someone they were fat (being British and a master of the gross understatement, I phrased it as rather overweight). They of course went into complete denial based on the fact that only I had mentioned it and nobody else had said anything, therefore I must be wrong !

[Memento Mori]

8 minutes ago, Chazar said:

No  but you  should be  allowed to  tell him that and he should be  able enough to  rebut it with "its the law"  if  you dont like it vote xyz next time.

Yes you are right. But after that, I would think he's probably the result of inbreed. Do you think I could translate this thought into words without consequences? Freedom of speech?

 

The point I want to make is this: there is no freedom of speech, only freedom of thoughts.

[kellersphuket]

1 minute ago, Berkshire said:

Now you're just being obtuse.  Individuals don't necessarily get to "decide" what's offensive in any society, it's generally agreed upon by the collective.  It's called community standards.  That's why even in the USA, you can't say certain words on public television.

 

I'll give you another example...in Thailand.  A few farangs have decided that the word "farang" is offensive.  But the Thai community doesn't agree.  Heck, even the farang community doesn't agree.  So no, farang is not considered an offensive word.   

Neither was the "N" word considered offensive till about 40 years ago.

Just because a word isn't considered to be offensive by the majority of the moment doesn't mean it isn't so.

 

The term Farang means foreigner means outsider means man from over there, an Alien. It implies difference, i.e, not the same, not deserving to be Thai, less than.

 

It has racist connotations for all white skinned people.

[Berkshire]

11 minutes ago, kellersphuket said:

The problem with taking the politically correct stance is that you never quite know what you say will offend someone or not.

 

If you take that stance every time you open your mouth you basically deny yourself the right to talk.

 

Someone could be offended by something as trivial as you saying something like "oh, I really like a good piece of cheese." That person may be a staunch vegan and have taken a deep disliking to the comment you have just made, but to you it was just a passing comment that meant next to nothing (other than proclaiming your love for cheese)..

 

You see what ridiculous path this political correctness will inevitably lead you down.

Is it really that bad for you?  I ask that in all seriousness.  In all my many years of conversing with all manners of people, I don't find political correctness to be a problem whatsoever.  Your vegan example....do they really get offended by that?  I've been around vegans and never noticed that.  Maybe I need to be more sensitive.     

[Berkshire]

1 minute ago, kellersphuket said:

Neither was the "N" word considered offensive till about 40 years ago.

Just because a word isn't considered to be offensive by the majority of the moment doesn't mean it isn't so.

 

The term Farang means foreigner means outsider means man from over there, an Alien. It implies difference, i.e, not the same, not deserving to be Thai, less than.

 

It has racist connotations for all white skinned people.

Farang means Caucasian people.  Thai people don't even assign color to it, we do.  If you ask a Thai literally what is a white person, they might point to a Korean or Japanese.  

 

But I'm reasonable.  For instance, I do find the "N" word offensive.  I can't say it....heck, I can't even write it.  But in America, there was controversy over the name of the football team Washington Redskins.  That one I don't get.  Maybe I should be more PC.

   

[Berkshire]

13 minutes ago, cmsally said:

Most people don't like to be told they are fat (if they are). Ironically if they were told so and acted upon it, it might increase their life and health for a considerable amount of years.

Guilt (from the fact they might get very sick) once drove me to tell someone they were fat (being British and a master of the gross understatement, I phrased it as rather overweight). They of course went into complete denial based on the fact that only I had mentioned it and nobody else had said anything, therefore I must be wrong !

I once asked an obese woman if she was pregnant.  Innocent mistake.  Boy the look I got!

[thaicurious]

49 minutes ago, Chazar said:

But a whisper can still be heard, overall Id  agree  though.

Once I saw a  woman being dragged  down the street by her husband by her hair I did intervene in the UK many years ago albeit only to notify the Police who told me she didn't want to do anything about it. Up to her freedom.

Watch the Hail Satan movie i found  it  extremely interesting.

Why do the american  dollar  bills  have " in god  we  trust" on them at all?

I had an incident way back in my 20s, whenever, when I thought to help a kid in a supermarket being emotionally abused and physically dragged and slammed a bit by the parent. I don't remember what I said. I know I tried to be calm and calming. But it got worse. And the kid wound up being more abused by the parent in front of all of us and I just felt terrible. I've been very careful about interfering since then.

 

To the dollar, I looked at that decades ago. Suppose either of us could just google. My memory is that a lot of the god stuff, there maybe and i think also the pledge of allegiance was godified if a world during the red scare of i think it was the 1950s.

 

Problematic is Christians consider that part of our founding. It is not. Far from it, our Founding Fathers specified and even codified in Treaty with full--I think it was 100%--Senate ratification, that America is not a Christian country.

 

Freedom of religion is held as dearly as freedom of speech. And argued sometimes just as contentiously.

[JamesBlond]

34 minutes ago, Berkshire said:

Of course.  People who are politically correct aren't against free speech.  They're simply against offending people.  And on the opposite spectrum, people who criticize political correctness....I'm pretty sure these folks would have a problem if the free speech directed at them was personally offensive. 

You're rather wrong about all of this. It's not called politically correct for nothing. It's social competition. It's the meek's way of controlling the strong by simply not allowing certain ideas to be expressed - and the number of things deemed 'offensive' is growing as victimhood is increasingly being used for social manipulation. I can see this trend taking hold of society day by day on the mainstream media. Maybe it salves the nerves of society's weakest, but it is dragging everyone in society down to their level of weakness, and it's creating an atmosphere of terror (the word is not too strong).

 

And those who criticize political correctness are, by definition, those who will not take offence so easily. You can say what you like about me, I will not be offended or 'hurt'. I'm not so insecure.

[Memento Mori]

Wow, You Americans are still obsessed with the word <deleted>. Being Dutch that's a word from ancient times. If we want to point out a person with a different color we say white or black. Same as pointing out someone with ginger hair or someone who's lang, tall, fat, small or handsome. If your skin is black, white or in between, who gives a <deleted>.

[soalbundy]

5 hours ago, kellersphuket said:

Funnily enough I don't feel for you.

My heart goes out to the young kids of tomorrow growing up in a society where speaking your mind has restrictions and is generally frowned upon.

how can thailand advance without free speech?

just look at China.

China has advanced a lot in 30 years, the people don't starve anymore, they have employment, a reasonable standard of living, and they are proud of the advancements that their country has made. If they don't stand up and vilify the government they have no problems.

[Memento Mori]

34 minutes ago, kellersphuket said:

The term Farang means foreigner means outsider means man from over there, an Alien. It implies difference, i.e, not the same, not deserving to be Thai, less than.

 

The word 'farang' means white people from abroad. It implies nothing more than that.

[soalbundy]

16 minutes ago, JamesBlond said:

You're rather wrong about all of this. It's not called politically correct for nothing. It's social competition. It's the meek's way of controlling the strong by simply not allowing certain ideas to be expressed - and the number of things deemed 'offensive' is growing as victimhood is increasingly being used for social manipulation. I can see this trend taking hold of society day by day on the mainstream media. Maybe it salves the nerves of society's weakest, but it is dragging everyone in society down to their level of weakness, and it's creating an atmosphere of terror (the word is not too strong).

 

And those who criticize political correctness are, by definition, those who will not take offence so easily. You can say what you like about me, I will not be offended or 'hurt'. I'm not so insecure.

correct, PC is up there with 1984

[cmsally]

28 minutes ago, Berkshire said:

Farang means Caucasian people.  Thai people don't even assign color to it, we do.  If you ask a Thai literally what is a white person, they might point to a Korean or Japanese.  

 

But I'm reasonable.  For instance, I do find the "N" word offensive.  I can't say it....heck, I can't even write it.  But in America, there was controversy over the name of the football team Washington Redskins.  That one I don't get.  Maybe I should be more PC.

   

I think Farang actually means white person to a Thai, as in white European. Thais generally don't assign much interest to colour unless it goes to the very dark end of the scale. Colour is not discussed in the same way as in the west and that is probably because the local population has both very light and dark. It could never be perceived the same way as in the west.