Brexit: PM Johnson faces mounting legal, political, diplomatic challenges

[sandyf]

15 hours ago, nauseus said:

Rubbish. You still haven't read it properly have you? Article 50 does not give the EU specific right to dominate withdrawal negotiations. But May gave it to them anyway. 

The text of Article 50 states quite clearly the Union are in control.

 

"In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union."

 

This is supported by guidelines to the European Parliament.

 

"The European Council (without the participation of the Member State concerned) then provides guidelines for the negotiations between the EU and the state concerned, with the aim of concluding an agreement setting out concrete withdrawal arrangements."

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2016/577971/EPRS_BRI(2016)577971_EN.pdf

•  

[sandyf]

17 hours ago, candide said:

You forget the cost of activities carried out by the EU that are actually shared between members states. It is costly to make laws and regulations, to conduct investigations, to test products, medicine, to do impact studies, etc...

In case of hard Brexit, UK would have to bear alone the full cost of all these activities.

Quite, the administrative bill for brexit never gets mentioned, but cost has never been a factor to the brexiteer, it is an emotional cause.

Every chance that point of view will change once the costs do start to come into play, reduced disposable income and increased taxation. 

The problem is that emotional arguments are never won or lost, when people actually see that things are not as they thought, it becomes someone else's fault.

[billd766]

14 hours ago, Nigel Garvie said:

Precisely. Boris, JRM, and that slimy snake Raab, among others have all been on the media saying that any move by parliament to block No deal would weaken their hand in those wonderful negociations. This is a total fantasy,  how terminally brain dead would you have to be to believe that there has been progress, if there is nothing new on the table. How many ways do the EU have to say no before they accept it. 

How about honesty:- "We know that we are not going to get a new deal, we are just using it as an excuse, and in the vain hope that some dithering Tory rebels might be stupid enough to believe us."

But we never had honesty and transparency from Teresa May, Philip Hammond et all for the last 3 years so why would you expect honesty now.

 

I can't be bothered posting memes as they have all been seen and done to death before.

 

In truth 90 odd % of ALL UK politicians lie at some time or other and very few of them care about their constituents anyway.

 

I see on the BBC news site this morning that Boris was defeated last night.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49573555

 

Tory rebels and opposition MPs have defeated the government in the first stage of their attempt to pass a law designed to prevent a no-deal Brexit.

The Commons voted 328 to 301 to take control of the agenda, meaning they can bring forward a bill seeking to delay the UK's exit date.

In response, Boris Johnson said he would bring forward a motion for an early general election.

Jeremy Corbyn said the bill should be passed before an election was held.

In total, 21 Tory MPs, including a number of ex-cabinet ministers, joined opposition parties to defeat the government.

 

What will happen next I really have no idea and like many of the posters here and many people in the UK, I am sick to death of Brexit.

 

JFDI and deal with what comes next when it arrives.

[Nigel Garvie]

13 minutes ago, billd766 said:

But we never had honesty and transparency from Teresa May, Philip Hammond et all for the last 3 years so why would you expect honesty now.

 

I can't be bothered posting memes as they have all been seen and done to death before.

 

In truth 90 odd % of ALL UK politicians lie at some time or other and very few of them care about their constituents anyway.

 

 

Honesty is indeed a quality that politicians in general are not famous for, I agree.

[JamesBlond]

My Brexit manifesto:

 

I am against the EU because it has given itself powers far beyond that of a common market. Leftist utopian bureaucrats thought that if you remove all the borders, invite in lots of immigrants, take a big spoon and stir everyone up, then there would be no more conflict of the 1930s type that still gives them nightmares. Catastrophic mistake. Their lack of social understanding and critical foresight, blinded by fear, has proved only a recipe for new conflict of exactly the type they wanted to avoid - the evidence is all around.

 

The remainers are simply cowards consumed by insecurity, terrified of not being part of the group. But Europe is still Europe, it's not floating off. They still want our trade, as we want theirs, but the social interference must be swept away. I want to see a European Union that respects cultural identity - and that is not incompatible with trade. I want to see the current EU dismantled and a new EU created without all the misguided ideological baggage - in other words, a common market. Who doesn't want that? It can be done, despite all the wailing, and it will be done eventually because Europe cannot go on like this. If anything, it's just common sense. Britain, as so often throughout history, has the balls to take the first step.

 

Let's get back to a simple common market. I ask again: who doesn't want that?

 

Edit: well, immigrants obviously.

 

 

Edited September 4, 2019 by JamesBlond

[david555]

I wish to congratulate all remainers or leavers Brits ... ,those who stood up against a "would be" dictator, as that is always the first priority in a Democracy , the follow up in a fair politic handling ...

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

The text of Article 50 states quite clearly the Union are in control.

 

"In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union."

 

This is supported by guidelines to the European Parliament.

 

"The European Council (without the participation of the Member State concerned) then provides guidelines for the negotiations between the EU and the state concerned, with the aim of concluding an agreement setting out concrete withdrawal arrangements."

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2016/577971/EPR

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

The text of Article 50 states quite clearly the Union are in control.

 

"In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union."

 

This is supported by guidelines to the European Parliament.

 

"The European Council (without the participation of the Member State concerned) then provides guidelines for the negotiations between the EU and the state concerned, with the aim of concluding an agreement setting out concrete withdrawal arrangements."

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2016/577971/EPRS_BRI(2016)577971_EN.pdf

•  

S_BRI(2016)577971_EN.pdf

•  

The second "supported" one is the briefing again! It is not legal!

 

Where are the words control or dominate mentioned anywhere?

 

Quite clearly my aunt!

 

[bangrak]

20 hours ago, nauseus said:

So, you are now saying that the UK should have been paying even more net contribution than Germany all the time? I wish that were true - it would make it much easier to get out of this mess - in fact we probably would have been long gone by now and not have to go through all this ch1t.

For once, I can agree with you: the EEC/EU would have been so much better, richer and more effective without the UK, and, mind you, quite a majority of the citizens in the 6 first EEC members seems to have the same opinion, but we didn't even get a consutative(...!) referendum like stupido Tory DC's Brexit one, ...about letting the UK in, my guess is it would have been over 60% against!

And after so many years of sucking up to our bone marrow, after having saved the ailing, drowning UK, still not able to stand up on its own since 1945, Perfidious Albion wants to leave, preferably without a deal, and, according to BoJo, without even paying its due? What a despicable bunch of selfish b.stards are these extreme Brexiteers?

Nota bene: BeLux worked, BeNeLux worked, the EEC with 6 worked, ...even with black-sheep-of-the-family Italy! 'The people' DID NOT want more, it were the large financial and industrial bloodsuckers' spheres who did with blinded politicians in their deep pockets.

P.S.: ...And when we would not have had the selfish, insular, nose-up, Brits, for sure we would not have had the Greeks, nor the Irish!

[beautifulthailand99]

4 hours ago, billd766 said:

But we never had honesty and transparency from Teresa May, Philip Hammond et all for the last 3 years so why would you expect honesty now.

 

I can't be bothered posting memes as they have all been seen and done to death before.

 

In truth 90 odd % of ALL UK politicians lie at some time or other and very few of them care about their constituents anyway.

 

I see on the BBC news site this morning that Boris was defeated last night.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49573555

 

Tory rebels and opposition MPs have defeated the government in the first stage of their attempt to pass a law designed to prevent a no-deal Brexit.

The Commons voted 328 to 301 to take control of the agenda, meaning they can bring forward a bill seeking to delay the UK's exit date.

In response, Boris Johnson said he would bring forward a motion for an early general election.

Jeremy Corbyn said the bill should be passed before an election was held.

In total, 21 Tory MPs, including a number of ex-cabinet ministers, joined opposition parties to defeat the government.

 

What will happen next I really have no idea and like many of the posters here and many people in the UK, I am sick to death of Brexit.

 

JFDI and deal with what comes next when it arrives.

Nontabury take note of your colleague. Hopefully you will obey your paymaster.

 

[sandyf]

3 hours ago, nauseus said:

The second "supported" one is the briefing again! It is not legal!

 

Where are the words control or dominate mentioned anywhere?

 

Quite clearly my aunt!

 

Well I suppose you have to cling on to something, as I have said before it is all about emotion.

Only the naive would believe that a document outlining the role of the European Council would be published for the European Parliament without the approval of the European Council.

Can't quite see where your aunt comes into it.

[beautifulthailand99]

30 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Well I suppose you have to cling on to something, as I have said before it is all about emotion.

Only the naive would believe that a document outlining the role of the European Council would be published for the European Parliament without the approval of the European Council.

Can't quite see where your aunt comes into it.

As Sheung-Wan says it's a cult. Where you can believe much anything you want, pickled with a good old racist garnish. Particularly if it's paddled by a posh-Eton toff. 

[BobBKK]

5 hours ago, david555 said:

I wish to congratulate all remainers or leavers Brits ... ,those who stood up against a "would be" dictator, as that is always the first priority in a Democracy , the follow up in a fair politic handling ...

You are obviously not British nor grasped any fact regarding what happened. 

[BobBKK]

12 hours ago, Basil B said:

Confirmed...

 

21 Tory MP's to lose the whip...

 

Just waiting for the "U"turn.

I am actually a 'Remainer' but I do support Boris as he's doing what he should do. To vote against your party, which is trying to implement a democratic referendum DESERVES sacking.

 

BTW if May had done the same it might have been all over by now. Three line whip or you are out! give 'im credit for a bit of leadership?

Edited September 4, 2019 by BobBKK

[zorrow424]

5 hours ago, JamesBlond said:

My Brexit manifesto:

 

 

 

Let's get back to a simple common market. I ask again: who doesn't want that?

 

Edit: well, immigrants obviously.

 

 

You are right  Looked at news footage of protests last week in London,the "stay in EU " brigade   first 3 rows in front,not a white face,back a few rows Jeremy Crowbin look-a-lites,... If one thing comes out of this Brexit done to death debate,one thing for sure immigrants into the UK will be treated with a form of hostility never witnessed before in the UK

 

 

 

Edited September 4, 2019 by zorrow424

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, bangrak said:

For once, I can agree with you: the EEC/EU would have been so much better, richer and more effective without the UK, and, mind you, quite a majority of the citizens in the 6 first EEC members seems to have the same opinion, but we didn't even get a consutative(...!) referendum like stupido Tory DC's Brexit one, ...about letting the UK in, my guess is it would have been over 60% against!

And after so many years of sucking up to our bone marrow, after having saved the ailing, drowning UK, still not able to stand up on its own since 1945, Perfidious Albion wants to leave, preferably without a deal, and, according to BoJo, without even paying its due? What a despicable bunch of selfish b.stards are these extreme Brexiteers?

Nota bene: BeLux worked, BeNeLux worked, the EEC with 6 worked, ...even with black-sheep-of-the-family Italy! 'The people' DID NOT want more, it were the large financial and industrial bloodsuckers' spheres who did with blinded politicians in their deep pockets.

P.S.: ...And when we would not have had the selfish, insular, nose-up, Brits, for sure we would not have had the Greeks, nor the Irish!

Are you sure that it's only the British, Italians, Greeks and the Irish that are so disliked? Surely there must be more?

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

Well I suppose you have to cling on to something, as I have said before it is all about emotion.

Only the naive would believe that a document outlining the role of the European Council would be published for the European Parliament without the approval of the European Council.

Can't quite see where your aunt comes into it.

Klingons! Emotion? It's about Article 50. Not difficult to read for most. 

 

[Slip]

13 minutes ago, zorrow424 said:

You are right  Looked at news footage of protests last week in London,the "stay in EU " brigade   first 3 rows in front,not a white face,back a few rows Jeremy Crowbin look-a-lites,... If one thing comes out of this Brexit done to death debate,one thing for sure immigrants into the UK will be treated with a form of hostility never witnessed before in the UK

Oh, stop it with your repeated racism, inflammatory rhetoric and threats.  It's spoiling my enjoyment of the other leavers' salty tears and/ or complete denial.  

With regard to recent events, I have (just a little bit) of faith in our politicians again.

[puck2]

On 8/31/2019 at 12:29 PM, Mavideol said:

totally unreasonable ???  not by his standards as he keeps playing the blaming game

Even Eton education cannot protect people against stupidity in the political area and bad character, as proven by Pfeffel Johnson.

 

 

From Wiki („Boris Johnson“):

…..Scandal erupted in June 1995 when a recording of a 1990 telephone conversation between Johnson and his friend Darius Guppy was made public.[107] In the conversation, Guppy said that his criminal activities were being investigated by News of the World journalist Stuart Collier, and he asked Johnson to provide him with Collier's private address, seeking to have the latter beaten to the extent of "a couple of black eyes and a cracked rib or something like that". Johnson agreed to supply the information although he expressed concern that he would be associated with the attack.[107] When the phone conversation was published in 1995, Johnson stated that he did not ultimately give the information to Guppy; Hastings reprimanded Johnson but did not dismiss him. …..

 

Congratulation to the conservative PM John Major who recognized Johnson's „quality“

[beautifulthailand99]

24 minutes ago, puck2 said:

Even Eton education cannot protect people against stupidity in the political area and bad character, as proven by Pfeffel Johnson.

 

 

From Wiki („Boris Johnson“):

…..Scandal erupted in June 1995 when a recording of a 1990 telephone conversation between Johnson and his friend Darius Guppy was made public.[107] In the conversation, Guppy said that his criminal activities were being investigated by News of the World journalist Stuart Collier, and he asked Johnson to provide him with Collier's private address, seeking to have the latter beaten to the extent of "a couple of black eyes and a cracked rib or something like that". Johnson agreed to supply the information although he expressed concern that he would be associated with the attack.[107] When the phone conversation was published in 1995, Johnson stated that he did not ultimately give the information to Guppy; Hastings reprimanded Johnson but did not dismiss him. …..

 

Congratulation to the conservative PM John Major who recognized Johnson's „quality“

Yes let's have a listen to that again - nasty piece of work behind the constructed shambolic facade.

 

 

[DannyCarlton]

2 hours ago, zorrow424 said:

You are right  Looked at news footage of protests last week in London,the "stay in EU " brigade   first 3 rows in front,not a white face,back a few rows Jeremy Crowbin look-a-lites,... If one thing comes out of this Brexit done to death debate,one thing for sure immigrants into the UK will be treated with a form of hostility never witnessed before in the UK

 

 

 

By a small group of racist xenophobic Brexiteers, think Tommy Robinson's army.

[bangrak]

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

Are you sure that it's only the British, Italians, Greeks and the Irish that are so disliked? Surely there must be more?

Nauseabond, don't try to twist my reaction, I didn't write the Italians were 'so disliked', just that they were the black-sheep-of-the-family (because of their political games, the players in the background, and their excess of 'creativity' in their bookkeeeping).

As for the Greeks the UK pushed so hard to get in (their 'creativity' when a lot further, up to bringing into account one amount of tax three, 3, times: once in their projections, once when billed, once when paid, in an attempt to make their deficit 'acceptable', 50% higher than the maximum 4% allowed, but as ...the French had got in with 6%, ...the Italians went for 6 while reality told 8 or more, so when the UK did all to get the Greeks in pretending to be at 8, that while the analysis projected more than 12, in the end it was 16 or 18, one of the 'disarming' arguments of the Brits, to ram it through the other 'partners'' throat, was that the small size and weight of Greece could never represent a sizeable problem for the EU...).

And the Irish? With credits from the EU, they specialised in 'light stuff', call centers an example of, 'killing' ten thousands of jobs in other, older, EU countries. Note that most of those call centers have found new, remote (India?) more juicy harbours. The same with many other 'light' activities they had attracted, with EU money, ending up in an internal crisis, and a cataclysm for their real-estate...

Of course, I'm just raving, pure imagination, dellusion, I can't know about such things, right?

LOL...

Back to your question: no, not at all, I like the Greeks, a lot, could even live there and smile of their pride as last relief of a long foregone 'grandeur' (actually, yes: go on Britain, you're catching up). The 'hitch' being with the incredible corruption and stalinist communist lunatics.

And the Irish in general are likeable, (damn) straight, people too IMO, I even have happy-family there, busy with trouts and horses, wouldn't live there though, their attachment to the-devil-in-the-bottle, and to the catholic church, on top of the climate, hmm...

[DannyCarlton]

3 hours ago, BobBKK said:

I am actually a 'Remainer' but I do support Boris as he's doing what he should do. To vote against your party, which is trying to implement a democratic referendum DESERVES sacking.

 

BTW if May had done the same it might have been all over by now. Three line whip or you are out! give 'im credit for a bit of leadership?

No, give him credit for behaving like a bullyboy dictator. God only knows how he treated the new boys in the dorms at Eton.

 

Some of the "rebels" are the denziens of the Tory party. They have had enough of Cummings riding roughshod over the constitution of the house. The worm turned and they finally said "Enough!". And voted with their conscience and duty to the country, rather than fear of the Cummings cabal.

 

You really think Ken Clark, father of the house, is a traitor?

[bangrak]

30 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

By a small group of racist xenophobic Brexiteers, think Tommy Robinson's army.

When on top of it you associate these 'people' with the politicians which are leading them by the nose, it, alas, reminds a lot of the fascists led by a Lord Mosley before WW2... The Tory gang around BoJo even smells like that bunch. Look it up for yourself, Brits (compare, don't just feed on 1 net address's, unverified, stuff)!

Then, populations shaken, empoverished by the 1930s World financial crisis (thanks again US of A bankers and other crooks), living in insecurity: jobs, salary, housing, food, health, ..., confronted to a fast changing World where there might be no room for them and their children (or in the role of cannonfodder for the rich, the wealthy and the blinded, a prospective they vehemently rejected just 12 years after WW1's senseless, massacres), fell into the arms of vicious 'false prophets', promising them heaven on earth, as if they deserved it...

Aren't there some parallels, not only in the UK, but more clearly so there, IMO...

Remember: History does not repeat itself, but it stammers...

Edited September 4, 2019 by bangrak

[bangrak]

3 hours ago, nauseus said:

Are you sure that it's only the British, Italians, Greeks and the Irish that are so disliked? Surely there must be more?

Nauseadond, you, so close to the essence of 'British-ness', can you, please, explain how it is possible for the largest Empire of modern times, ruling over seas and land, all around the planet, with its brave, hard working, skilled, workers, all the so many incredibly brilliant brains, has 'succeeded', after its hegemony at the end of the industrial revolution, to fall into tatters within just half a century time, just over two generations?

...And why you and your ilks now, with extreme bitterness, reflect your nation's blatant failings on the continental Europeans? Did you, really, expect them to do all of the hard job to keep the nose of your sinking country above water (...or rather to bring it above surface again), by themselves? Why? Because you people deserve it, or what? Haven't you got much to much from Europeans over the past centuries already (leaving the Brutish Empire's exactions out of consideration here and now)?

It is so evident Brexiteers, and, sadly, many other Brits don't have a clue about the quagmire their country has worked itself in! And it has so little or nothing to do with the EU! Mirrors are not banned from British homes, I think, but it seems they will not wear any soon, as Brits appear not to be able nor wanting to look at their own image in a critical way! 

 

[Jip99]

20 minutes ago, bangrak said:

Nauseadond, you, so close to the essence of 'British-ness', can you, please, explain how it is possible for the largest Empire of modern times, ruling over seas and land, all around the planet, with its brave, hard working, skilled, workers, all the so many incredibly brilliant brains, has 'succeeded', after its hegemony at the end of the industrial revolution, to fall into tatters within just half a century time, just over two generations?

...And why you and your ilks now, with extreme bitterness, reflect your nation's blatant failings on the continental Europeans? Did you, really, expect them to do all of the hard job to keep the nose of your sinking country above water (...or rather to bring it above surface again), by themselves? Why? Because you people deserve it, or what? Haven't you got much to much from Europeans over the past centuries already (leaving the Brutish Empire's exactions out of consideration here and now)?

It is so evident Brexiteers, and, sadly, many other Brits don't have a clue about the quagmire their country has worked itself in! And it has so little or nothing to do with the EU! Mirrors are not banned from British homes, I think, but it seems they will not wear any soon, as Brits appear not to be able nor wanting to look at their own image in a critical way! 

 

 

 

That is bordering on racist.

 

Apart from being a load of bo11ocks.

[Slip]

41 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

That is bordering on racist.

 

Apart from being a load of bo11ocks.

Not racist and not bo11ocks (sic) either.  There isn't much room for little Englanders in the modern world.  It's time to get with the program before you shuffle of...

 

[chrissables]

On 9/3/2019 at 9:23 AM, david555 said:

Oh ..! That fake excuse again , using the Queen for his agenda , lucky he is not doing that in Thailand ,he would end longtime in a very bad place …,

nobody is fooling in his excuses anymore  ,never mind,  today action day ...setting the score right.

 

BTW why his fooling still the Brits , as there are no negotiations with E.U. going on  and not planned ….talks yes as polite as E.U. is talks....just talks...  as a visitor with a cup of tea with even a slice of cake but no cherry's …, again using lies to win time ...just hoping to please H.O.C. that he is getting a new better deal …..forget as they say over and over again  ,what is  on the table is the only one,....May's deal .

 

At the time both parliaments were shut, so informal talks were held. 

[BobBKK]

11 hours ago, DannyCarlton said:

No, give him credit for behaving like a bullyboy dictator. God only knows how he treated the new boys in the dorms at Eton.

 

Some of the "rebels" are the denziens of the Tory party. They have had enough of Cummings riding roughshod over the constitution of the house. The worm turned and they finally said "Enough!". And voted with their conscience and duty to the country, rather than fear of the Cummings cabal.

 

You really think Ken Clark, father of the house, is a traitor?

 

I think Ken Clark was a great politician for many years who now enters his dotage. Corbyn is rudderless and will lose any general election and has shown his cowardice yesterday. 

[david555]

1 hour ago, chrissables said:

At the time both parliaments were shut, so informal talks were held. 

oh ! so Boris was informing H.O.C. it where just " talks", oh so just a slip of his (liar's) tongue , come on guy's stop " keeping up appearances "...Barnier was even not around ….

[sandyf]

15 hours ago, nauseus said:

Klingons! Emotion? It's about Article 50. Not difficult to read for most. 

 

It would appear to be extremely difficult for those with rose tinted vision.

Now facing the brexiteers worst nightmare, the road to utopia is dependent on unelected bureaucrats.