Thousands protest British PM Johnson's move to suspend parliament

[wreckingcountry]

Diatribe ! So it was “non binding and consultative because you lost? !what a pathetic losers argument


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[vogie]

32 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Not no-deal it didn't. That's just Hard Brexiteer spin.

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For the 1,000,000th time, if we can't agree on a deal, we leave with no deal, now that wasn't difficult was it.

[Chomper Higgot]

37 minutes ago, Denim said:

 

Oh I see ......sorry about that. My bad.

 

A bit like a general election then where voters express their preference for the party that will govern them.

 

But it shouldn't be binding if some people don't like the outcome.

 

People should be allowed to overturn the result if they beat their drum loud enough.

 

Cool ......I see where you are at. I've got your number.

Nothing like a General Election, which select the MPs to represent the electorate in Parliament and which are binding..... until an out of control PM suspends Parliament.

 

Oops!

[sanemax]

7 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Nothing like a General Election, which select the MPs to represent the electorate in Parliament and which are binding..... until an out of control PM suspends Parliament.

 

Oops!

They've had three years to talk about it , comes a time when enough's enough and no more talking and delaying and just need to get on with it.

  They dont want to talk about leaving the E.U , they want to stop the democratic process and make sure the UK remains

[bangrak]

Please, allow me to attract your attention on an important event in History: today, it is the anniversary of the attack of Nazi Germany against Poland, 80 years ago.

And, alas, this is NOT an 'out-of-topic' post!

Poland's sovereignty, integrity and independence were at that time, 'guaranteed' by two major World powers: both Britain and France.

What to think about the, in those years, British PM, Lord Chamberlain, when, in 1938, he came back from Berlin, declaring when stepping out of the plane, holding some papers in his hand: Mr Hitler does not want war. French Daladier singing a same tune.

Can anyone, seriously, think these, weathered politicians of a, gentlemen, were totally wrong informed, did not have a clue, or, worse, were betraying their respective country? I think not.

Did they hope giving the wolf the prey it claimed, could avoid a cataclysm, with dramatic consequences for their compatriots? Maybe.

What is sure though, is that although both countries, formally, declared war on Germany, NOTHING was done to protect the Poles, on the ground, with military force, NOTHING!

That while Britain, with its military potential (its fleet, airforce, ...the important ground forces stationed in continental Europe at the time), and, France with its first-grade military potential (the largest modern airforce, the largest number of armoured vehicles, the only one with heavy tanks, and ultra-modern fleet), ...well, they did NOTHING, camped on their positions, probably preparing already for a German invasion, they would, of course, squash in a matter of weeks.

History, alas, tells a very, very, different story...

There is no doubt ion the facts that both Britain and France miserably let the Poles down, betrayed them, and reneged on their given word.

Could, at that time, the horror of WW II, still be avoided? I, sincerely, think so. Courageous, resolute, ...unpopular (who wants to go at war?), measures could have changed the course of History.

A last thing at the side: in those years, in France, but especially in Britain, the fascist, nationalist, movement was very strong (Lord Mosley, anyone?), a dominant force in the debate (though, probably, hopefully, a minority, we will never clearly know).

Up to today, refresh, think, relativate, ...and do tell me why it would NOT be the MPs elected by 'the people', who should, in their insight and wisdom, decide(!) which way the UK would, should choose?

Should, even a large number of, British citizens, ...outside of expressing their choices and will, ...in general elections, 'possibly' manipulated by, IMHO malafide, persons persuing a, dark, 'agenda', be let to lead the country into troubled waters, and should ...the same kind of nationalism, protectionism and selfishness be allowed to float-up, like 'then', ...to serve the personal interests and thirst of glory of some deluded individuals?

Have the British citizens really, truly, 'chosen' to reduce themselves to 'that'? It is very hard for me to believe it, but I must say the last years have made me lose a lot of hope, but in the last three, whatever the born-in differences of its insular mentality, and the relics of the Empire, making the Brits quite different of the other people of Europe may be, this is a wound that they have been mis-lead (I'm a positive thinker) to inflict to their European partners, ...they always succeeded to get more of than what they reluctantly gave, whatever the blatant, exposed, lies from the malafide Brexit propagandists might pretend.

We, I'm a continental European, what the end of this awful charade might be, will not easily forgive, nor forget, the abuses and betrayals you let to be perpetrated by the bunch of lunatics whic is leading you to...? No doubt, what they promised you (sarcasm), ...like what Chamberlain, Daladier, ...and the fascists, promised to their followers, with the known consequences.

What you, maybe, don't realise, is that the 'vox populi' in continental Europe now shouts: they want it, let them get it, it will hurt us no doubt, but, at last, get rid of them, they were never no true partners, they were never honest in business, always trying to bend the rules, only riding for themselves I-myself-and-me, and, sorry, I must add: a bitter hope for the UK to go badly on its face. Just telling you how the feelings are at the other side of the water surrounding your island... 

 

Edited September 1, 2019 by bangrak

[Grusa]

17 hours ago, rooster59 said:

About 100 people protested outside the city hall in Belfast, the capital of the Northern Ireland, which has become a particular focus in the Brexit negotiations as it has the United Kingdom's only land border with the European Union.

More people stagger out of a local pub at closing time. Not really a strong protest!

[johnnybangkok]

2 hours ago, billd766 said:

No, the UK did NOT have a Brexit deal at all or it would have been ratified by parliament, as it was it was rejected 3 times by the same parliament that you think is non-democratic and undermines democracy in the UK.

 

Democracy is accepting that you side didn't win and moving on. What is undermining our Democracy in failing to accept what the majority who voted to leave and saying that they were wrong and had no idea what they voted for.

 

I voted to leave and having listened to both sides I made my own mind up and ignored all the propaganda from BOTH sides as both sides lied.

I don’t think and didn’t say “ is non-democratic and undermines democracy in the UK”.  I’m saying literally the reverse. But there is a system in the UK that determines the result not from referendums but by parliamentary democracy. It’s what stops you having to vote on matters that confuse, overwhelm and for which you have little but an emotional attachment to. It’s why we vote politicians in. 

You say you listened but did you really? Did you think it was going to be a no- deal Brexit? Really? Honestly. Regardless of that, did you think that we had to question the very aspect of how we govern? The fundamentals of how the UK has existed for hundreds of years is now under question because BoJo wants to try and force through an idea that does not have parliamentary approval. 

Many times in the past democracy been usurped by the ideals of a movement or individual. 

None if them have worked out particularly well. Let’s not copy the mistakes of the past. 

[nontabury]

7 hours ago, johnnybangkok said:

By definition referendums are advisory. They do not govern the UK. 

Not arguing that Brexit won, just that you now cannot dismiss the real rule of government because parliamentary democracy doesn’t agree with you. 

 

You forgot to mention, that in the 2017 G.E. Those parties who pledged to respect and implement the British people’s Democratic decision to leave this so called union, received over 80% of the vote. So it would seem to me that you are unwilling to accept Any vote that goes against your wishes. 

 

 

[bannork]

6 hours ago, vogie said:

For the 1,000,000th time, if we can't agree on a deal, we leave with no deal, now that wasn't difficult was it.

 No. We don't commit financial suicide because we can't agree on a deal. We stay until we can agree.

[sanemax]

12 minutes ago, bannork said:

 No. We don't commit financial suicide because we can't agree on a deal. We stay until we can agree.

Why would it be "financial suicide" , if we left without a deal ?

[vogie]

11 minutes ago, bannork said:

 No. We don't commit financial suicide because we can't agree on a deal. We stay until we can agree.

Your interpretation is not the same as the laws interpretation.

 

Kicking cans down the road does not make deals, negotiations do and that appears to have gone as far as its going to go, by default we leave on no deal terms.

[SheungWan]

8 hours ago, vogie said:

For the 1,000,000th time, if we can't agree on a deal, we leave with no deal, now that wasn't difficult was it.

Nothing about the conditions in the wording of the referendum. Plus, the terms of any deal are agreed/not agreed by Parliament. The Hard Brexit lie is that the refeendum explicitly voted for no-deal, which they weren't pushing even before the referendum vote. Good to see though that some Hard Brexiteers are increasingly confused by Boris's doubling down that he is still pushing a deal. Phooey! In practice BJ can be stopped. Let's see the Brexiteer heads spin if that happens.

[SheungWan]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

Your interpretation is not the same as the laws interpretation.

Kicking cans down the road does not make deals, negotiations do and that appears to have gone as far as its going to go, by default we leave on no deal terms.

Hard Brexiteers only interest is no-deal. Everything else is dishonest fig-leaf.

[SheungWan]

1 hour ago, sanemax said:

Why would it be "financial suicide" , if we left without a deal ?

Got any Sterling to sell me?

[SheungWan]

2 hours ago, nontabury said:

 

You forgot to mention, that in the 2017 G.E. Those parties who pledged to respect and implement the British people’s Democratic decision to leave this so called union, received over 80% of the vote. So it would seem to me that you are unwilling to accept Any vote that goes against your wishes.

Nothing about no-deal in the election. OK, maybe UKIP. They did well.

Edited September 1, 2019 by SheungWan

[vogie]

4 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Nothing about the conditions in the wording of the referendum. Plus, the terms of any deal are agreed/not agreed by Parliament. The Hard Brexit lie is that the refeendum explicitly voted for no-deal, which they weren't pushing even before the referendum vote. Good to see though that some Hard Brexiteers are increasingly confused by Boris's doubling down that he is still pushing a deal. Phooey! In practice BJ can be stopped. Let's see the Brexiteer heads spin if that happens.

You saying that it is a hard Brexit lie is that the referendum explicitly voted for a no deal is your interpretation, it does not make it so just because you say it.

It was explained many times before the referendum of the implications of failing to reach a deal and that should be obvious even to the most arch remainers.

It said on the referendum leaflet 'remain in the EU or leave the EU' we chose to leave the EU and the only way that is possible is by trying to agree with the EU, when all the negotiations failed, in all honesty what choice is there left, I'm afraid no-deal.

The last time of us pleading for an extension we were giving 6 months, and Donald Tusk I believe said something along the lines of 'don't waste it', well from were I'm sitting the last 6 months have been anything but productive, what is the point of the EU approving the extensions if they are not going to engage in any dialogue, the only reason I can think of is to keep us in their jolly boys club. Further extensions would serve no purpose if there is little chance of an agreement being forged out, they are a pointless exercise, so what other alternative does the UK have other than a no deal?

 

[vogie]

24 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Hard Brexiteers only interest is no-deal. Everything else is dishonest fig-leaf.

Getting what we were promised is not being dishonest and to say Brexiteers only interest is no-deal is being very perfidious, most Brexiteers would like a deal that is fair to both sides and not just the EU.

[sanemax]

4 hours ago, SheungWan said:

Got any Sterling to sell me?

The low Pound rate isnt "financial suicide " for the UK .

It may not personally be good for you , but it has its positives for the UK

[sanemax]

4 hours ago, SheungWan said:

Nothing about no-deal in the election. OK, maybe UKIP. They did well.

Nothing about a deal either

[transam]

4 hours ago, SheungWan said:

Hard Brexiteers only interest is no-deal. Everything else is dishonest fig-leaf.

What a daft post...So you know my thoughts..?  ????

[DannyCarlton]

9 minutes ago, transam said:

What a daft post...So you know my thoughts..?  ????

Have you got any? You never seem to post them. You just seem to attack other people's thoughts. Am I right or am I right? 555

Edited September 2, 2019 by DannyCarlton

[transam]

3 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

Have you got any? You never seem to post them. You just seem to attack other people's thoughts. Am I right or am I right? 555

You did not write that, so you are replying for others now...?

[DannyCarlton]

16 minutes ago, transam said:

You did not write that, so you are replying for others now...?

Yes. Problem with that? Is it against forum rules? Is the thread not open to all? (I bet you wish it wasn't 555).

[billd766]

11 hours ago, johnnybangkok said:

I don’t think and didn’t say “ is non-democratic and undermines democracy in the UK”.  I’m saying literally the reverse. But there is a system in the UK that determines the result not from referendums but by parliamentary democracy. It’s what stops you having to vote on matters that confuse, overwhelm and for which you have little but an emotional attachment to. It’s why we vote politicians in. 

You say you listened but did you really? Did you think it was going to be a no- deal Brexit? Really? Honestly. Regardless of that, did you think that we had to question the very aspect of how we govern? The fundamentals of how the UK has existed for hundreds of years is now under question because BoJo wants to try and force through an idea that does not have parliamentary approval. 

Many times in the past democracy been usurped by the ideals of a movement or individual. 

None if them have worked out particularly well. Let’s not copy the mistakes of the past. 

IMHO many of the MPs now sitting in parliament, Including those who are threatened with a 3 line whip and those who may be de-selected by the Tory party, may well be de-selected by their own constituency. I think a number of Labour MPs could well be in the same boat.

Edited September 2, 2019 by billd766
added extra text

[transam]

4 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

Yes. Problem with that? Is it against forum rules? Is the thread not open to all? (I bet you wish it wasn't 555).

What the guy posted assumed he knew my thoughts, but you wanted to answer for him, are you and him related in any way...?  ????

[Thingamabob]

Remoaners, or more correctly, traitors of the worst kind. Utterly despicable.

[DannyCarlton]

35 minutes ago, transam said:

What the guy posted assumed he knew my thoughts, but you wanted to answer for him, are you and him related in any way...?  ????

No, you assumed that he knew your thoughts. He was refering to Brexiteers in general not you personally. It's not all about you.

 

Am I related to him? I'll take the 5th on that. My Dad was a randy <deleted>....and a European.

[johnnybangkok]

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

IMHO many of the MPs now sitting in parliament, Including those who are threatened with a 3 line whip and those who may be de-selected by the Tory party, may well be de-selected by their own constituency. I think a number of Labour MPs could well be in the same boat.

Since we cannot rely on your crystal ball at this stage, it looks like we are just going to have to go along with a parliamentary system that's been in existence since 1215 and get these pesky MP's to continue doing their job. 

And for people who constantly go on about Brexit being the 'democratic will of the people', you lot sure are selective in what parts of the democratic process you want. It's not a Woolworth's pick and mix; you don't get to choose which parts you like and which parts you don't. 

Edited September 2, 2019 by johnnybangkok

[billd766]

41 minutes ago, johnnybangkok said:

Since we cannot rely on your crystal ball at this stage, it looks like we are just going to have to go along with a parliamentary system that's been in existence since 1215 and get these pesky MP's to continue doing their job. 

And for people who constantly go on about Brexit being the 'democratic will of the people', you lot sure are selective in what parts of the democratic process you want. It's not a Woolworth's pick and mix; you don't get to choose which parts you like and which parts you don't. 

quote "you don't get to choose which parts you like and which parts you don't."

 

Oddly enough the same applies to the Remainers too.

 

I voted to Leave yet many Remainers accuse me and many other Leavers as stupid, uneducated, not knowing what I was voting for, irresponsible and many other epithets to numerous to mention. They say that when I have thought about it deeply and for long enough, I will come to my senses and become a Remainer.

 

Not a hope in hell will that ever happen to me.

 

For more than 3 years now I have watched Teresa May make a determined effort to thwart my wishes and that of over some 17 million voters and screw up the one thing she became PM to do, and that was Brexit and take the UK out of the EU. She of course was and still a remainer and despite all her promises she lied. There is no other word for it.

 

At the next GE I would like to see TM and Philip tossed unceremoniously out on their ear and not promoted to the HoL. 

 

[nontabury]

1 hour ago, johnnybangkok said:

Since we cannot rely on your crystal ball at this stage, it looks like we are just going to have to go along with a parliamentary system that's been in existence since 1215 and get these pesky MP's to continue doing their job. 

And for people who constantly go on about Brexit being the 'democratic will of the people', you lot sure are selective in what parts of the democratic process you want. It's not a Woolworth's pick and mix; you don't get to choose which parts you like and which parts you don't. 

 

So what is the M.P’s job?