13 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

Agree totally with you, cancelling Brexit would be very undemocratic. just as undemocratic as Boris Cummings proroguing parliament.

 

Surely you agree that the democratic thing to do is let the people decide, no deal Brexit or remain.

 

Then cancel Brexit!

Are you the one who suggested banks,stock markets, financial institutions would flee UK?   never mind      You sound sorta irish

6 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

What insults? Only facts.

 

The only oft repeated slogan in my post is "Project Fear" a Brexiteer slogan. Agree that repeating it it time after time doesn't make it real, it never did for anyone with an ounce of sense. Glad to see that you now recognise the slogan as nonsensical rhetoric.

 

For once, why don't you try to counter my arguments rather than attacking me. Oh I forgot, you have no counter to my arguments. OK, flame on. (Missing your smiley faces 555)

You don't have any arguments, just the same ol' boring repetitive stuff...

3 minutes ago, Forethat said:

Project reality?

 

You mean the food shortages? 

That there would be no medicine?

That planes would be grounded? 

The house price crash? 

That ½ a million will lose their jobs?

That the cost would be £4,300 to every home? 

Stock market collapse? 

Riots? 

No sandwiches?

That there’d be an outbreak of super gonorrhea?

The end of Western civilisation as we know it? 

 

You were mentioning something about "thick skulls" (not to mention "anyone capable of rational thought")?

No I'm talking about:

 

The economy nosediving, taking us into recession.

 

UK businesses finding it very difficult to export their goods.

 

Imports becoming prohibitively expensive for the consumer.

 

Small businesses becoming bankrupt.

 

Farmers being forced onto the breadline.

 

Unemployment increasing.

 

Us all having to accept inferior standards in order to survive.

 

The best and the brightest in the UK emigrating to find work.

 

These facts are accepted by all bankers, economists and industry leaders. Only blinkered hardline Brexiteers still refuse to accept the facts. Oh, and those such as JRM who stand to profit from the UKs demise.

 

Nothing to do with sandwiches and gonorrhea as your facetious remarks imply.

 

4 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

And in a years time we will be exactly back where we are now.

The Brexiteers promised unicorns and rainbows.

The Brexiteers have utterly failed to produce the unicorns and rainbows.

So the referendum result is null and void.

Nonsense. Only Remainers talk of unicorns and rainbows. Leavers simply want to leave the EU, ideally with a good deal or otherwise with No Deal at all.

 

The shameful anti Democrats have been scheming since 2016 to overturn the democratic vote. Now as soon as Leavers are forced to resort to similar tactics they cry like babies. Like a child that slaps their sibling, gets slapped back and then goes crying to Mummy. 

 

Thankfully Leavers have Dominic Cummings on their side, so now the gloves are off and the Leave camp are being reluctantly dragged down into the gutter to fight with Remain, Remain will lose, we will leave and faith in Democracy will be partially restored, although still tarnished by shameful Remainer behaviour since 2016. 

1 minute ago, JonnyF said:

Nonsense. Only Remainers talk of unicorns and rainbows. Leavers simply want to leave the EU, ideally with a good deal or otherwise with No Deal at all.

 

The shameful anti Democrats have been scheming since 2016 to overturn the democratic vote. Now as soon as Leavers are forced to resort to similar tactics they cry like babies. Like a child that slaps their sibling, gets slapped back and then goes crying to Mummy. 

 

Thankfully Leavers have Dominic Cummings on their side, so now the gloves are off and the Leave camp are being reluctantly dragged down into the gutter to fight with Remain, Remain will lose, we will leave and faith in Democracy will be partially restored, although still tarnished by shameful Remainer behaviour since 2016. 

What is shameful is the Brexit fundamentalists hijacking the votes of people who voted leave because they believed the lies about unicorns and rainbows. 

It's up to parliament to decide what's right for Britain. That's constitutional democracy in action. By all means lobby your MP, as is your right, but the 'people' do NOT have any constitutional right to make decisions on brexit.

 

And as far as I can garner, Johnson does seek a deal - at least, that's what most of the media report, and there are indications that a loosening of opposition to the backstop issue by Macron and Merkel - but not Barnier - is possible. 

 

What is of more concern to me is Gove's lack of any reports on the consequences of a no-deal, just a big cover-up, IMO. The fact that adverse consequences would occur should be pretty clear to anyone with a grain of realism. It is this ongoing negativity, that has influenced MPs to seek legislation to remove a no-deal scenario. 

 

IMO a new referendum suits no purpose; better to have a GE and let the parties deliver their manifestos - but, in the interim, hope Johnson does obtain concessions from the EU to convince his party to vote for that deal.

 

 

    

 

 

2 hours ago, vogie said:

Just to remove any doubts you appear to have, it was explained to all and sundry, it was very clear, the only people that appear to have selective memory loss are the arch remainers. Hope this refreshes your memory.

 

Apparently not, see this quote from one of your fellow brexiteers.: " This is what I, and I'm sure most leave supporters voted for. ".

When a sovereign parliamentary representative democracy has given itself clear rules, according to which

 

- referendums are advisory,

- a PM does not have the power to change that, and 

- parliament may bring forward new laws;

 

and then a small group of extremists demands that

 

- a referendum shall be considered as binding, 

- a PM’s promises shall be considered as law, and 

- parliament must not bring forward new laws;

 

then I am wondering who is the one trying to overturn that parliamentary representative democracy... ???? 

Edited September 2, 20196 yr by welovesundaysatspace

Sort of remember Boris saying frequently in the run up to the vote that led half the country up the path to lala land we will end up with a better deal out than in

so is where we are today it????

2 minutes ago, sammieuk1 said:

Sort of remember Boris saying frequently in the run up to the vote that led half the country up the path to lala land we will end up with a better deal out than in

so is where we are today it????

Well yeh, but isn't it a great feeling that the UK will not be controlled by foreigners anymore, as it is now the future would be grim...

1 minute ago, sammieuk1 said:

Sort of remember Boris saying frequently in the run up to the vote that led half the country up the path to lala land we will end up with a better deal out than in

so is where we are today it????

The actual beauty of this is...wait for it...you don't,  but we know for sure 39 billion in Boris pocket,..no  more 70 billion trade deficit with EU.  No more Germany manufacturing under a cheap currency (for them),bean counting now for them...French fishermen/farmers about to go on rampage/Spanish too,..just for starters

Bickering posts and replies removed

9 minutes ago, sammieuk1 said:

Sort of remember Boris saying frequently in the run up to the vote that led half the country up the path to lala land we will end up with a better deal out than in

so is where we are today it????

Still in 

2 hours ago, vogie said:

So if we can't get a deal, which looks very likely, what would you do?

go back to the people and ask for a mandate to leave with no deal

1 minute ago, tebee said:

go back to the people and ask for a mandate to leave with no deal

What is the point of having another losers vote when the remainers in parliament have catagorically said the would not respect it. Be honest tebee you know as well as anybody on here that another bite of the cherry is just a smokescreen to cancel Brexit.

18 minutes ago, tebee said:

go back to the people and ask for a mandate to leave with no deal

I see a problem with this approach:

It is impossible to foresee every single change that could have an impact on voters decision to vote leave or remain.

 

IF we decide to vote whether we should leave with No Deal and the result is No, should Brexiters then be entitled to demand that we "go back to the people" and ask whether we should Remain each time a new EU law is approved?

 

You see where that is going, don't you?

 

For instance, EU are about to introduce laws that criminalises criticism against migration politics. They also suggest that laws are introduced that allows the EU to shut down any media that publishes criticism against migration. In essence, we're talking about restricting free speech. If the people say No to Leave with No Deal, should we be allowed to demand a peoples vote on Remain with restricted free speech?   

 

I think that is an overwhelmingly important question.

Edited September 2, 20196 yr by Forethat

2 hours ago, vogie said:

So if we can't get a deal, which looks very likely, what would you do?

 

The reason we can't get a deal is because the Tory government screwed up the negotiations! The same Tory party that screwed up the initial referendum which they called to quell rifts in their own party - and for no other reason at the time. The same Tory party which tried unsuccessfully to bi-pass our parliament and constitution by illegal use of the Royal Prerogative. The same Tory party no trying to bi-pass parliament by suspending it for an extra ordinary amount of time. The same Tory party whose government is threatening parliamentary convention by threatening to expel and deselect any MP who votes against the government.

 

Our representative democracy has parliament has the sovereign body. Not the executive. A misbehaving government can, and has, been brought down by a no confidence vote including MP's of its own party. By changing this, they are trying to make the government and the ruling party the sovereign body. MPs are representatives, not delegates. This has very dangerous connotations and will no doubt give Corbyn and the militant left ideas.

 

Your question is difficult to answer, I wish I could. But one thing I wouldn't do is trust a Tory government acting more like fascists, threatening to deselect and expel MP's who dare to have independent thoughts, and who allows a Minister to openly imply the government might not respect the law! These clowns are not above the law, or parliament and their crude attempts at installing their executive with dictatorial powers must be stopped.

12 minutes ago, vogie said:

What is the point of having another losers vote when the remainers in parliament have catagorically said the would not respect it. Be honest tebee you know as well as anybody on here that another bite of the cherry is just a smokescreen to cancel Brexit.

Absolutely no one in parliament has said that they wouldn't respect the confirmatory vote, whatever the outcome. Evidence please.

 

If you are convinced that Brexiteers would win the day again, how can it be a smokescreen to cancel Brexit?

9 minutes ago, Forethat said:

For instance, EU are about to introduce laws that criminalises criticism against migration politics. They also suggest that laws are introduced that allows the EU to shut down any media that publishes criticism against migration. In essence, we're talking about restricting free speech. If the people say No to Leave with No Deal, should we be allowed to demand a peoples vote on Remain with restricted free speech?   

Have you actuaally got any reliable evidence of this? Sounds like Brexiteer rhetoric to me.

2 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

Absolutely no one in parliament has said that they wouldn't respect the confirmatory vote, whatever the outcome. Evidence please.

 

If you are convinced that Brexiteers would win the day again, how can it be a smokescreen to cancel Brexit?

 

Maybe because they know that the support for a no deal Brexit isn't there and that the vote would most likely be to remain.

Just now, Baerboxer said:

 

Maybe because they know that the support for a no deal Brexit isn't there and that the vote would most likely be to remain.

Which would be the democratic will of the people.

 

I know that, you know that, but try to get a howling Brexiteer to admit it.

3 hours ago, Pattaya46 said:

Why? Those who were 15, 16 or 17 at the referendum are in this category.

Today they would have the right to vote, and they would mostly do it for remain.

And BTW, many seniors who voted Leave have died since the referendum.

While you are at it, can we also re run the 1983 election? I wasn't old enough to vote at the time.

Just now, DannyCarlton said:

Which would be the democratic will of the people.

 

I know that, you know that, but try to get a howling Brexiteer to admit it.

Again you keep going on about democracy but you ignore the democracy regarding the peoples vote that YOU don't like....

 

Gawd, I hope your place don't have a balcony.....????

2 minutes ago, sungod said:

While you are at it, can we also re run the 1983 election? I wasn't old enough to vote at the time.

We have done, several times. Did you miss all of them too?

9 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

Absolutely no one in parliament has said that they wouldn't respect the confirmatory vote, whatever the outcome. Evidence please.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/07/23/lib-dem-leader-jo-swinson-says-would-vote-against-brexit-even/

 

10 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

Absolutely no one in parliament has said that they wouldn't respect the confirmatory vote, whatever the outcome. Evidence please.

 

If you are convinced that Brexiteers would win the day again, how can it be a smokescreen to cancel Brexit?

I am not interested in your land of make believe, the coconut has been won, it doesn't need winning again, the fact of the matter is we have voted to leave, I am sorry if you don't agree with it, but that's how democracy works, leave got the majority, remember.

As for the requested proof, well here it is but I don't think for one minute it will meet with your criteria.

 

 

3 hours ago, stevenl said:

You don't know because the question on the referendum was not clear regarding exit options.

It was abundantly clear... leave or stay in.... the options then would be thrashed out by politicians... and we all know what they're like ! 

Can't organise a <deleted>-up in a brewery !

Just now, transam said:

Again you keep going on about democracy but you ignore the democracy regarding the peoples vote that YOU don't like....

 

Gawd, I hope your place don't have a balcony.....????

So wouldn't a confirmatory vote agreed deal vs remain be the democratic thing to do? You and your fellow Brexiteers seem convinced that Brexit would win that even more convincingly, so what's the problem?

 

Luckily I live in a detatched bungalow. Probably not a problem for you either. Do they have balconies in Nakon Nowhere?

I am personally sick and tired of these anti-democratic remainers. Let Boris do his job...let him try to get a better deal or leave with no deal. 

It makes compelling sense to have a trade deal with the EU and in the event of no deal one will be negotiated within a year of leaving so I don't see what the big deal is anyway. What is on the table from May is not a trade deal anyway, it is more like an interim trading plan and an HoA or MoU for negotiating a final trade deal at some point in the future.

24 minutes ago, Forethat said:

I see a problem with this approach:

It is impossible to foresee every single change that could have an impact on voters decision to vote leave or remain.

 

IF we decide to vote whether we should leave with No Deal and the result is No, should Brexiters then be entitled to demand that we "go back to the people" and ask whether we should Remain each time a new EU law is approved?

 

You see where that is going, don't you?

 

For instance, EU are about to introduce laws that criminalises criticism against migration politics. They also suggest that laws are introduced that allows the EU to shut down any media that publishes criticism against migration. In essence, we're talking about restricting free speech. If the people say No to Leave with No Deal, should we be allowed to demand a peoples vote on Remain with restricted free speech?   

 

I think that is an overwhelmingly important question.

"For instance, EU are about to introduce laws that criminalises criticism against migration politics. They also suggest that laws are introduced that allows the EU to shut down any media that publishes criticism against migration."

 

Please provide proof of this, first time I have heard of it and I doubt it very, very much.