Legal advice regarding the procedure in land ownership in combination with marriage with a Thai. Lawyer/law firm recommendations in Bangkok also appriciated

[steveharrisisthelegend]

Hi,

This is my situation:

I'm a foreigner living in Thailand. I am in a relationship with a Thai. We are married in the sense that we have had our marriage ceremony already, however we have not registered the marriage yet in either Thailand or my home country, so by all legal definitions we are still single.

Now we are in the process of buying land in Thailand, the deal and contract has been made. The purchase of the land and transfer of the land ownership still has not happened and we have another 1,5 months to complete it. So basically we are still both legally single, and are trying to figure out the best fair way for purchasing the land and registering our marriage.

For current belongings before this deal, she owns land with a home in it thats 100% in her name, located in Thailand, and I have assets, most of it outside of Thailand but after the land purchase and building a home a significant amount in Thailand as well.

What we want to do is this: First of all, in the unfortunate case that at some point our relationship ends, we want to arrange everything legally so that after a divorce everything is shared equally 50-50. That would include our assets inside and outside of Thailand, the value of her previously owned land and home, and the value of the land that we are in the process of buying now and the home that will be built on it.

Ive done a decent amount of research on this and seems like laws regarding land ownership are tricky if youre a foreigner in Thailand. From what I understood the only option is that the land has to be bought under her name, I think registering it under a company is not a convenient option for me, although I havent really looked into it that much. 

The tricky part seems to be whether to do an usufruct or a pre-nup with a lawyer and how to do them correctly. Its also not clear to me what is the best order to do them in, buy the land first when she is still legally single and then do the usufruct, or register our marriage first with a prenup and then purchase the land. Also unclear on how me having registered as married or not in my home country would affect the legality of the situation in some way or not.

I will get advice from a lawyer regardless, and feel free to recommend a company or a lawyer situated in Bangkok if youve had a good experience with one, but to get a better understanding of the situation and my rights I have a few questions:

1) What is the best way to do what we are trying to achieve? Usufruct, prenup or some other way? How these options, usufruct and prenup are different for us and how?

2) How would that optimally be done, whether its by usurfruct or prenup.

3) What is the best order to do this? If we do usufruct, in what order is the best to do it? Should we buy the land first when she is still legally single, then do the usufruct and then register the marriage? OR if the best option is the prenup, should we register the marriage first with prenup and then buy the land? 

4) Do we have to register our marriage in my home country? How does that affect my position legally?

And secondly, after this is all done, we want to make sure that in case one of us passes away the other person will get all of the other persons assets. So for example, in case she were to pass away, I would receive 100% of the value of both of the pieces of land that are then registered under her name. So none of it would go to her family etc, but I would receive all of the value of both lands and homes and the sole right to use them.

A few questions regarding this:

1) What is the best way to do this? Registering a will for both of us with a lawyer after the land purchase & marriage stuff has been dealt with?

2) Since I cant legally own land as a foreigner, can I really inherit the pieces of land if she happens to pass away although it is written in a will?

Thanks, appriciate the responses and lawyer/law firm recommendations as its not very clear to me what the best way is.

 

Edited September 30, 2019 by steveharrisisthelegend
fixes some spelling mistakes

[taninthai]

Personally I would not waste money on lawyers ,,,,,you are getting married got to have trust in each other,,,if there is no trust there then live by the golden rule ...never invest more than your willing to walk away from,,simple way is getba usufruct if you want to have some safety net on the land .......however if you did end up falling out with the wife on bad bad terms they could make it so uncomfortable that you wouldn’t want to live/stay on the property anyway.

 It all depends on what your wife and her family are like.

A  usufruct done by yourself is around 150 bht at land office sometimes you gotta pay a little sweetener to get it moving along.

Edited September 30, 2019 by taninthai

[steveharrisisthelegend]

2 hours ago, taninthai said:

Personally I would not waste money on lawyers ,,,,,you are getting married got to have trust in each other,,,if there is no trust there then live by the golden rule ...never invest more than your willing to walk away from,,simple way is getba usufruct if you want to have some safety net on the land .......however if you did end up falling out with the wife on bad bad terms they could make it so uncomfortable that you wouldn’t want to live/stay on the property anyway.

 It all depends on what your wife and her family are like.

A  usufruct done by yourself is around 150 bht at land office sometimes you gotta pay a little sweetener to get it moving along.

They are very nice. Wouldnt say Im very close with her family but theyve always been very respectful, nice and helpful and Ive been the same. Yeah, I thought I would use a lawyer because I am too lazy to figure how to do the document myself, however could definitely do it ourselves too. How much of a process is it?

[elliss]

3 hours ago, taninthai said:

Personally I would not waste money on lawyers ,

A  usufruct done by yourself is around 150 bht at land office sometimes you gotta pay a little sweetener to get it moving along.

 

      Usufruct is not worth the paper it is written on . 

        Family and brother , move in and,  farlang not welcome anymore..

        Golden rule , if you cannot afford to loose it ,  dont  bye  it . TiT .

 

Edited September 30, 2019 by elliss

[kingofthemountain]

19 minutes ago, steveharrisisthelegend said:

They are very nice...

Indeed they are.

They are all very nice at the begining

until something turn wrong and then you could be at least very desapointed.

I can understand your point of view, you are in a honeymoon mode and more than happy at alls the levels and it's a good thing for you. However you should be more humble and do not treat like a troll someone giving you some good advices like you did it just before.

With some research you could discover a whole world of scams here, and bargirls do not have the

exclusivity in the process, But as you said you are lazy, so i wish you the best for all your life

do whatever you want, but please, if something turn wrong, like in more than 50 % of the cases here.  do not come back in some years to cry here if you lose alls yours assets 

[Scott]

Inflammatory post reported and removed along with replies.  

 

[sirineou]

35 minutes ago, steveharrisisthelegend said:

They are very nice. Wouldnt say Im very close with her family but theyve always been very respectful, nice and helpful and Ive been the same. Yeah, I thought I would use a lawyer because I am too lazy to figure how to do the document myself, however could definitely do it ourselves too. How much of a process is it?

As said , trust your wife, if you not trust her you should not being getting married.

  But Register your mariedge before closing on the property. All property acquired during marriage is community property in Thailand and  subject to community property  laws in the event of divorce or  death.

"Thailand Marital Property. Thailand is what is known in legal terms as a “Community Property” jurisdiction. This means that, in general, all assets acquired by either the man or wife during the marriage are considered to be the property of both partners. There are however exceptions to this rule. "

http://www.thailand-family-law-center.com/thailand-marital-property-law/

[steveharrisisthelegend]

15 minutes ago, sirineou said:

As said , trust your wife, if you not trust her you should not being getting married.

  But Register your mariedge before closing on the property. All property acquired during marriage is community property in Thailand and  subject to community property  laws in the event of divorce or  death.

"Thailand Marital Property. Thailand is what is known in legal terms as a “Community Property” jurisdiction. This means that, in general, all assets acquired by either the man or wife during the marriage are considered to be the property of both partners. There are however exceptions to this rule. "

http://www.thailand-family-law-center.com/thailand-marital-property-law/

Its not that simple. I have a friend who registered their marriage first, then when purchasing the land he had to sign a paper at the land office that says that the money to purchase the land is not his money, the land is not his property, and basically has nothing to do with him. That is a document foreigners must sign at the land office at the day of purchase in Thailand, otherwise they will not be able to buy the land with their spouse. My wives lawyer friend looked into the fact and said that document is very strong, perhaps even stronger than a pre-nup agreement. 

Edited September 30, 2019 by steveharrisisthelegend
clarified the wording

[sirineou]

15 minutes ago, steveharrisisthelegend said:

Its not that simple. I have a friend who registered their marriage first, then when purchasing the land he had to sign a paper at the land office that says that the land is not his property, and basically has nothing to do with him. My wives lawyer friend looked into the fact and said that document is very strong, perhaps even stronger than a pre-nup agreement. 

.

I am not a lawyer and I really don't know, but I don't think the title of ownership affects the division of assets under the community property statute. If I understand this correctly, in case of death and in the absence of surviving children, the surviving husband or wife is awarded the properties acquired while married regardless of ownership, If the  spouse is not an Thai citizen and not entitled to property ownership, such property has to be sold within a year.

 

Edited September 30, 2019 by sirineou

[kingofthemountain]

20 minutes ago, steveharrisisthelegend said:

...then when purchasing the land he had to sign a paper at the land office that says that the money to purchase the land is not his money, the land is not his property, and basically has nothing to do with him. That is a document foreigners must sign at the land office at the day of purchase in Thailand, otherwise they will not be able to buy the land with their spouse...

Do you even realize that acting this way the land is only in the name of the spouse

and your friend have 0 rights on it? At least if he have had not signed the paper saying is not his money (And i presume it's his money, as usual in 99% of the cases, if not why to bother with a farang?)

he could have challenged the deal arguing he was the providers of the founds.

All of this because a foreigner can not be the owner of a land in Thailand.

Have you even notice that point?

Some years ago i ''bought'' a land with a GF, her name and my name are both on the channote

but it si clear she is the only owner of the land and she can rent and sale it without my permission

(Me i can not do it without her agrement) and if she dies, i have to sale the land in less than 1 year.

On the other hand if i dies, she stay alone the owner and does what she wants with the land.

The things are bbery unbalanced here, it's important to know it before to transfer all your money

in ''thai hands'' or be prepared to future very hard days

[taninthai]

No matter what you do you will never own the land same as your friend who signed the paper,,,,,,,you can have rights to use the land and that’s it..

how long you Been in Thailand and how long with the wife......why buy if wife already owns house ,,,,,,rent first......please dont tell us next the land you have done a deal on belongs to the family..........

 

 

to get the usufruct varies mine they didnt didn’t want to issue it the same day I paid for the land as it looked to much like proxy ownership,,I was leaving the country a week later so signed power of attorney to a few friends and they sorted it while I not even in the country,,,,,,,,one of the few friends I signed poa to was my ex wife and my usufruct is from her ,I can fully trust these people ,,,it took me 10 years of staying in Thailand before I could have this trust????????????

Edited September 30, 2019 by taninthai

[amykat]

2 hours ago, elliss said:

 

      Usufruct is not worth the paper it is written on . 

        Family and brother , move in and,  farlang not welcome anymore..

        Golden rule , if you cannot afford to loose it ,  dont  bye  it . TiT .

 

That is not true.  Although I can see in some cases where it could be.  Yes, if you build your house on family land in a small village with all the family living with and around you ...well life might get difficult.  But if you buy in a major city and don’t have relatives, or like me, don’t have a relationship at all, and just want to buy a home.  But I guess the OP doesn’t want to hear what I have to say, his five minutes here has taught him everything ....Even though he is here asking.  A good lawyer will ask him these same questions that I asked, or Inform him.

 

I missed all the action ....so I don’t know what the complaints were, but please don’t say things like usufruct is worthless.  It is one of the better ways to protect yourself, but if someone is bent on destroying you, well life won’t be easy. That was not the only thing I did.

 

The person whose name I put my house in, told me about a year later, oh you are very smart, I have taken all that paperwork to my friends and around town and people say I can’t break this!!!  They were too stupid to realize that I would know WHY they did that when they said that.  If you leave yourself open some people here seem to think that means you want them to steal it.  Years later I was told that they are a really good person because they have not killed me yet to get the property!!  No kidding.  Upper middle class people.  But anyway, I will shut up so you can go back to your dream of smiling nice people.

 

 

[Chazar]

2 hours ago, elliss said:

Usufruct is not worth the paper it is written on . 

yeah cost me about 40 baht, could saved  meself that, what a  fool

[ThaiLawOnline]

Well, lots of information, questions, an cynicism here. Do consult a lawyer but most lawyer won’t know about the laws of your country AND Thailand.

 

Should you wish to marry in Thailand and live abroad, it would be clever to verify if your prenup would stand and protect you abroad. In Thailand, by law, you current assets, inheritance and gifts and protected. The prenup will just confirm that more clearly and could be used in your own country. Thai law is fair for marital property.

 

For real estate investment, I wrote an article many years ago about Usufruct. Usufructs became popular but it is not the best choice for everyone. It depends on your age, where you want to live, how much you invest, how is your relationship, etc.

 

i prefer to combine a Usufruct with a MOU (memorandum of understanding) or something else, like a prenuptial. But again, you need to look at title deed and situation of the parties.

 

Some clients will prefer to setup a company (with preferred shares) some will make a mortgage, Usufruct, lease, a right of habitation, rights of superficies and things you might never have heard on English forums.

 

Consult someone with experience in real estate, that will answer you, that would ask crazy prices, that you trust too. Better to pay more and have a law firm that your trust, who can speak English and will answer you.

 

Foreigners are forbidden to practice law in Thailand. I am manager of a law firm and our clients are clearly satisfied of our services. Other law firms could do the trick.

 

Shop Lawyers, individually. Do not sent impersonal letters to 20 law firms. I don’t even answer to these. Good lawyers are busy. But some good lawyers are affordable and know what they talk about. It is not because you charge 10,000 baht per hour that you are better than another lawyer asking only 2,000 baht per hour.

 

it is like a restaurant. You have choices. Pick the right for you. I do that for 13 years full time and we lost 3 or 4 times in court on more than 100 cases.

 

No prenuptial that we have done, no lease, no Usufruct, were broken by any court anywhere that I know of.

 

our law firm is small, but we work as a team, trying to improve and doing the best for each client.

 

i rarely answer on these post but the OP contacted me directly and I thought my answer could help many of you.

 

We can even get 50-50 in case of separation with non-married couples. People just are arrogant on forums and think they know everyone when they can’t even read Thai law or speak the language. I worked with maybe 30 Thai lawyers.

 

S.

 

[thainet]

The matters of marriage, house buying, house ownership in Thailand is quite complicated for a novice, and even when you think all is solid, it probably isn't.

 

So as I understand it, you want to be sure that both parties get half of the Thailand properties and half of the overseas property.. ie: everything is 50/50 if you divorce.

So why not do it this way. If you divorce you keep everything overseas and she keeps everything in Thailand..probably still about 50/50 and no lawyers, no paperwork, no inlaws and no hassle (believe me as a 40 veteran of living in Thailand this is the best way..thai bureaucracy can be mind blowing at times)

 

(The house you want to buy in Thailand will be in her name, and as long as you are married, you get to live in it..win win).

[ThomasThBKK]

13 hours ago, Isaanlawyers said:

Some clients will prefer to setup a company (with preferred shares) some will make a mortgage, Usufruct, lease, a right of habitation, rights of superficies and things you might never have heard on English forums.

 

Or all of that. 

Different things carefully combined can give different benefits and tighten everything up reasonably, depending on your own situation it's always a bit different to what makes the most sense.

 

Op, If you think you can do all this without help of a lawyer however, i have to bring you back to planet earth, that might work in your home country but not here. And whatever you do, do it before you get legally married on paper, or just stay unmarried, you don't gain much from marriage here anyway.

 

PS: There are many people with good Real estate investment experiences here, they just seldomly write here.

Edited October 1, 2019 by ThomasThBKK

[steveharrisisthelegend]

Thanks for the replies especially IsaanLawyers! I guess one thing that wasnt completely clear from the OP is that I live in Thailand permanently for around 8 years now, and dont plan on moving back to my home country. The reason for purchasing the land is not for investment purposes but to build a home in it. 

Edited October 1, 2019 by steveharrisisthelegend

[ThomasThBKK]

20 hours ago, steveharrisisthelegend said:

1) What is the best way to do what we are trying to achieve? Usufruct, prenup or some other way? How these options, usufruct and prenup are different for us and how?

2) How would that optimally be done, whether its by usurfruct or prenup.

3) What is the best order to do this? If we do usufruct, in what order is the best to do it? Should we buy the land first when she is still legally single, then do the usufruct and then register the marriage? OR if the best option is the prenup, should we register the marriage first with prenup and then buy the land? 

4) Do we have to register our marriage in my home country? How does that affect my position legally?

And secondly, after this is all done, we want to make sure that in case one of us passes away the other person will get all of the other persons assets. So for example, in case she were to pass away, I would receive 100% of the value of both of the pieces of land that are then registered under her name. So none of it would go to her family etc, but I would receive all of the value of both lands and homes and the sole right to use them.

A few questions regarding this:

1) What is the best way to do this? Registering a will for both of us with a lawyer after the land purchase & marriage stuff has been dealt with?

2) Since I cant legally own land as a foreigner, can I really inherit the pieces of land if she happens to pass away although it is written in a will?

 

 

Not a lawyer, obviously, but have some RE experiences here and elsewhere in so called developing countries aka Sholes:

 

1) Usufruct is fine. You just do it between you and the current owner. No need to get your Wife even involved. Pay a realistic price for it and the taxes it insolves.

   After that you transfer the land, to a company i would suggest. Usufruct can be done for lifetime and is a reasonable protection, it stays intact if the land gets sold until you  personally get rid of it. Of course there's always the risk of forged signatures, or otherwise simple criminal elements, or corrupt land offices - there's really not much you can go except suing afterwards.

 

2) Why even get married on paper? After you are married usufruct between you and your wife is useless (if done after marriage), all contracts are. For RE ownership it is better to be single here.

 

3) First usufruct etc then land sold, i don't think there are exceptions to it. You should do all before marriage.

4) No idea.

 

1) Yes you can register a will at the local amphur.

2) Yes, but if its in a company name you can just replace her shares with someone elses. If its personal u have 12 months to sell it or give it to someone else, but i think you can ride that out longer too...

Edited October 1, 2019 by ThomasThBKK

[steveharrisisthelegend]

4 minutes ago, ThomasThBKK said:

After you are married usufruct between you and your wife is useless (if done after marriage), all contracts are. For RE ownership it is better to be single here.

How is it useless if its done after marrying? How is different legally if the usufruct is done before marrying? Thanks!

[ThomasThBKK]

2 minutes ago, steveharrisisthelegend said:

How is it useless if its done after marrying? How is different legally if the usufruct is done before marrying? Thanks!

Every contract beween a married couple can be annulled by either side at all times as long as it doesn't damage a third party.

 

That's why only a prenup is worth doing, all other contracts are worthless for married couples: https://www.samuiforsale.com/family-law/thai-marriage-and-contracts-between-husband-and-wife.html