Jomtien Condo Owners Sue For Sea View

[Ground Engineer]

Why did Bangkok use the average MSL (+1.45m) for Thailand? I don't know because this information was filed with the court in city hall information packet when explained MSL in their survey. But they used 0.0 on the deed (chanoot) when placing the building on the land. Maybe it was to draw the attention away from the facts that the local MSL is +2.45m above 0.0 which is located in Portsmouth, England. I'm sure this will be discussed!

We (or the court) didn't know that the local MSL was +2.45 until a Thai navy person came forward with this information. This is a local issue and local MSL needs to be used in making a survey.

On issue 8 and issue 9, where does it say that local MSL (+2.45) is used or where does it say MSL(+1.45) be used, in fact where does it say MSL be used as you initally told everyone it should be high tide level. This is the problem with both requlations they are not specific and there are no clear guide lines. Why isnt the required MSL shown on the drawing?

I think the court should use high tide because the regulation said to measure from shoreline. We found definitions for shoreline in Thai law which means high tide. But "MSL at shoreline" is showen on Issue 9 map. Is this the drawing your asking about?

Great MSL is shown on Issue 9. Well which line does it correspond to then, MSL +2.45, MSL +1.45 or MSL.

It doesn't say. MSL is a 19 year average so I would not expect to give a number. It's a local issued regulation so I think local MSL would apply when measuring! It called common sense. But I understand why city hall would try to draw are attention away from the local MSL. Local MSL is not good for VT7.

All we seem to read these days are contradictions from stopvt7. Initially he was saying it was 200m from the high tide, then 200m from the MSL, now it seems he can't make up his mind if it is regulation 8 or 9, he also continues to say that "Thailand is a country of laws", yet he now understands that these laws differ from location to location. Sometime ago on this thread people were asking why buildings could be built so close to the sea in Na Jomtien, it was said that this area comes under a different regulation, which everyone disregarded. Now it seems that one good thing has come out of this thread, it has educated people to some extent, yet there is still so much uncertainty with laws being distorted to suit individual agendas. I see little point in debating anything on this forum, whatever is said, someone who thinks they're smarter will come along and spout absolute garble. What about the big issue of Hua Hin? nothing being built within 200m. Do you now see that what happens in Hua Hin has absolutely no affect of what happens in Pattaya? No blue roofing allowed on Samui, yet you see the god awful stuff everywhere else. Everywhere is different and as I said previously it ain't over til the now obese lady sings.

You must be a buyer of VT7!

No I am not a VT7 buyer.

[OneMikeInBangkok]

Why did Bangkok use the average MSL (+1.45m) for Thailand? I don't know because this information was filed with the court in city hall information packet when explained MSL in their survey. But they used 0.0 on the deed (chanoot) when placing the building on the land. Maybe it was to draw the attention away from the facts that the local MSL is +2.45m above 0.0 which is located in Portsmouth, England. I'm sure this will be discussed!

We (or the court) didn't know that the local MSL was +2.45 until a Thai navy person came forward with this information. This is a local issue and local MSL needs to be used in making a survey.

On issue 8 and issue 9, where does it say that local MSL (+2.45) is used or where does it say MSL(+1.45) be used, in fact where does it say MSL be used as you initally told everyone it should be high tide level. This is the problem with both requlations they are not specific and there are no clear guide lines. Why isnt the required MSL shown on the drawing?

I think the court should use high tide because the regulation said to measure from shoreline. We found definitions for shoreline in Thai law which means high tide. But "MSL at shoreline" is showen on Issue 9 map. Is this the drawing your asking about?

Great MSL is shown on Issue 9. Well which line does it correspond to then, MSL +2.45, MSL +1.45 or MSL.

It doesn't say. MSL is a 19 year average so I would not expect to give a number. It's a local issued regulation so I think local MSL would apply when measuring! It called common sense. But I understand why city hall would try to draw are attention away from the local MSL. Local MSL is not good for VT7.

All we seem to read these days are contradictions from stopvt7. Initially he was saying it was 200m from the high tide, then 200m from the MSL, now it seems he can't make up his mind if it is regulation 8 or 9, he also continues to say that "Thailand is a country of laws", yet he now understands that these laws differ from location to location. Sometime ago on this thread people were asking why buildings could be built so close to the sea in Na Jomtien, it was said that this area comes under a different regulation, which everyone disregarded. Now it seems that one good thing has come out of this thread, it has educated people to some extent, yet there is still so much uncertainty with laws being distorted to suit individual agendas. I see little point in debating anything on this forum, whatever is said, someone who thinks they're smarter will come along and spout absolute garble. What about the big issue of Hua Hin? nothing being built within 200m. Do you now see that what happens in Hua Hin has absolutely no affect of what happens in Pattaya? No blue roofing allowed on Samui, yet you see the god awful stuff everywhere else. Everywhere is different and as I said previously it ain't over til the now obese lady sings.

You must be a buyer of VT7!

No I am not a VT7 buyer.

Good - wanna buy 1? or maybe 2 some great bargains to be had on units on the 27th 26th 25th 24th 23rd 22nd................................

[OhdLover]

Good - wanna buy 1? or maybe 2 some great bargains to be had on units on the 27th 26th 25th 24th 23rd 22nd................................

Here we go again.........

[lookat]

It has been explained to me that their way over a metre, maybe 2m, difference in MSL averages from the Andaman Sea side (India Ocean) and Gulf of Thailand side where Pattaya in located.

[lookat]

The MSL average differences between the Andaman Sea (Indian Ocean) and the Gulf of Thailand is well over 2 m. The surveys have fool someone by applying that one should uses the average of Thailand. Why?

[jpm76]

Good - wanna buy 1? or maybe 2 some great bargains to be had on units on the 27th 26th 25th 24th 23rd 22nd................................

Here we go again.........

Yeah, I guess that we'll just have to live with the fact that OneMikeinBangkok cannot seem to help himself... just read his previous posts to see the kind of gloating comedian he is. It is comments like these that there really does come something of this that just wipes the attitude right out of his vocabulary. A 27 story high VT7 would do just that I would think.

[OneMikeInBangkok]

Good - wanna buy 1? or maybe 2 some great bargains to be had on units on the 27th 26th 25th 24th 23rd 22nd................................

Here we go again.........

Yeah, I guess that we'll just have to live with the fact that OneMikeinBangkok cannot seem to help himself... just read his previous posts to see the kind of gloating comedian he is. It is comments like these that there really does come something of this that just wipes the attitude right out of his vocabulary. A 27 story high VT7 would do just that I would think.

I can't find a gloating smiley - this one will have to do

To be honest if VT7 does get built I couldn't give a monkey's I would feel sorry for JCC Owners. I would feel sorry for any owners of condos along the beach cause it would just lay the way open to the next, or the same, avericious developer to drop the sh*t on existing "law abiding" developments.

Until this is ALL over my money stays firmly offshore

Anyways win or lose this is going on for a looooong long time cause I don't think for one moment VT will accept the Admin court decision and I KNOW JCC owners are hoping for the best but they WILL fight till the bitter end, and have the funds to do so, even if it takes years and years of appeals.

[plasticpig]

'OneMikeInBangkok' date='2007-11-27 20:46:36' post='1673874']

Anyways win or lose this is going on for a looooong long time cause I don't think for one moment VT will accept the Admin court decision and I KNOW JCC owners are hoping for the best but they WILL fight till the bitter end, and have the funds to do so, even if it takes years and years of appeals.

Very true.

Its not over yet.

[jpm76]

Good - wanna buy 1? or maybe 2 some great bargains to be had on units on the 27th 26th 25th 24th 23rd 22nd................................

Here we go again.........

Yeah, I guess that we'll just have to live with the fact that OneMikeinBangkok cannot seem to help himself... just read his previous posts to see the kind of gloating comedian he is. It is comments like these that there really does come something of this that just wipes the attitude right out of his vocabulary. A 27 story high VT7 would do just that I would think.

I can't find a gloating smiley - this one will have to do

To be honest if VT7 does get built I couldn't give a monkey's I would feel sorry for JCC Owners. I would feel sorry for any owners of condos along the beach cause it would just lay the way open to the next, or the same, avericious developer to drop the sh*t on existing "law abiding" developments.

Until this is ALL over my money stays firmly offshore

Anyways win or lose this is going on for a looooong long time cause I don't think for one moment VT will accept the Admin court decision and I KNOW JCC owners are hoping for the best but they WILL fight till the bitter end, and have the funds to do so, even if it takes years and years of appeals.

Given your willingness to always give your two cents in this forum mike, and based upon the nature of your comments, you could perhaps understand why some of us may have thought that owned half of JCC's apartments. Your last post has me wondering why you are so keen to stir things up all the time, but I guess that some people just thrive off it. Personally I am glad that you do not own in either building because, at last, if things have gotten a little personal at times on these posts, the JCC owners and VT7 investors can perhaps be excused on the fact of having something real at stake to get emotional about (loss), not just a possible future maybe investment. Given developments in Thailans more recently, and even the economist has recently graded Thailand as a political high risk country now, maybe your money would be best invested here in say 50 years. How about going for a moniker such as OneMikeinUSA or OneMikeinWesternEurope. Nothing personal against you, just some of your comments, particularly in light of your new revelations that you do not even have an interest in either JCC or VT7.

[OneMikeInBangkok]

Good - wanna buy 1? or maybe 2 some great bargains to be had on units on the 27th 26th 25th 24th 23rd 22nd................................

Here we go again.........

Yeah, I guess that we'll just have to live with the fact that OneMikeinBangkok cannot seem to help himself... just read his previous posts to see the kind of gloating comedian he is. It is comments like these that there really does come something of this that just wipes the attitude right out of his vocabulary. A 27 story high VT7 would do just that I would think.

I can't find a gloating smiley - this one will have to do

To be honest if VT7 does get built I couldn't give a monkey's I would feel sorry for JCC Owners. I would feel sorry for any owners of condos along the beach cause it would just lay the way open to the next, or the same, avericious developer to drop the sh*t on existing "law abiding" developments.

Until this is ALL over my money stays firmly offshore

Anyways win or lose this is going on for a looooong long time cause I don't think for one moment VT will accept the Admin court decision and I KNOW JCC owners are hoping for the best but they WILL fight till the bitter end, and have the funds to do so, even if it takes years and years of appeals.

Given your willingness to always give your two cents in this forum mike, and based upon the nature of your comments, you could perhaps understand why some of us may have thought that owned half of JCC's apartments. Your last post has me wondering why you are so keen to stir things up all the time, but I guess that some people just thrive off it. Personally I am glad that you do not own in either building because, at last, if things have gotten a little personal at times on these posts, the JCC owners and VT7 investors can perhaps be excused on the fact of having something real at stake to get emotional about (loss), not just a possible future maybe investment. Given developments in Thailans more recently, and even the economist has recently graded Thailand as a political high risk country now, maybe your money would be best invested here in say 50 years. How about going for a moniker such as OneMikeinUSA or OneMikeinWesternEurope. Nothing personal against you, just some of your comments, particularly in light of your new revelations that you do not even have an interest in either JCC or VT7.

In actual fact I do have a vested interest in all this huha and gain a not too incosiderate financial gain from this conflict - so there you are, this is not the reason for my willingness to give my two penneth (cents is so american) but certainly a welcome side effect of this whole affair

[ThaiBob]

I agree this Blog Owner is obviously not a full shilling

However one thing he does get over is that the View Talay 7 Project would be a big joke if it was not for the fact that the results of this clearly illegal folly will mean a lot of folks losing a lot of money

I see the offensive articles/posts have been removed from this blog (PattayaJomTienCondos). I see the blog owner Blackpuddin is also named Mike.

[brooklynbridge]

I agree this Blog Owner is obviously not a full shilling

However one thing he does get over is that the View Talay 7 Project would be a big joke if it was not for the fact that the results of this clearly illegal folly will mean a lot of folks losing a lot of money

I see the offensive articles/posts have been removed from this blog (PattayaJomTienCondos). I see the blog owner Blackpuddin is also named Mike.

The next step? Possibly the Admin Court will dismiss the case based on the fact that VT7 is too close to the sea, even under the 100 meter rule. Then what?

[jpm76]

Good - wanna buy 1? or maybe 2 some great bargains to be had on units on the 27th 26th 25th 24th 23rd 22nd................................

Here we go again.........

Yeah, I guess that we'll just have to live with the fact that OneMikeinBangkok cannot seem to help himself... just read his previous posts to see the kind of gloating comedian he is. It is comments like these that there really does come something of this that just wipes the attitude right out of his vocabulary. A 27 story high VT7 would do just that I would think.

I can't find a gloating smiley - this one will have to do

To be honest if VT7 does get built I couldn't give a monkey's I would feel sorry for JCC Owners. I would feel sorry for any owners of condos along the beach cause it would just lay the way open to the next, or the same, avericious developer to drop the sh*t on existing "law abiding" developments.

Until this is ALL over my money stays firmly offshore

Anyways win or lose this is going on for a looooong long time cause I don't think for one moment VT will accept the Admin court decision and I KNOW JCC owners are hoping for the best but they WILL fight till the bitter end, and have the funds to do so, even if it takes years and years of appeals.

Given your willingness to always give your two cents in this forum mike, and based upon the nature of your comments, you could perhaps understand why some of us may have thought that owned half of JCC's apartments. Your last post has me wondering why you are so keen to stir things up all the time, but I guess that some people just thrive off it. Personally I am glad that you do not own in either building because, at last, if things have gotten a little personal at times on these posts, the JCC owners and VT7 investors can perhaps be excused on the fact of having something real at stake to get emotional about (loss), not just a possible future maybe investment. Given developments in Thailans more recently, and even the economist has recently graded Thailand as a political high risk country now, maybe your money would be best invested here in say 50 years. How about going for a moniker such as OneMikeinUSA or OneMikeinWesternEurope. Nothing personal against you, just some of your comments, particularly in light of your new revelations that you do not even have an interest in either JCC or VT7.

In actual fact I do have a vested interest in all this huha and gain a not too incosiderate financial gain from this conflict - so there you are, this is not the reason for my willingness to give my two penneth (cents is so american) but certainly a welcome side effect of this whole affair

Well, since you are gaining "not too inconsiderately" FROM this conflict, that may explain why you seem to enjoy stirring it up, and then bask in your own gloating. Best thing I can do is just ignore any rants you may make. Ciao!

Now, onto more positive things, anyone know what happened at the Nov 28th Admin court meeting?

[OneMikeInBangkok]

Now, onto more positive things, anyone know what happened at the Nov 28th Admin court meeting?

There was no meeting - see post #790

THe surveyors report will be sent to the Admin Court who will decide when the next meeting/hearing will take place.

I anticipate sometime early next year (2008)

[jpm76]

Good - wanna buy 1? or maybe 2 some great bargains to be had on units on the 27th 26th 25th 24th 23rd 22nd................................

Here we go again.........

Yeah, I guess that we'll just have to live with the fact that OneMikeinBangkok cannot seem to help himself... just read his previous posts to see the kind of gloating comedian he is. It is comments like these that there really does come something of this that just wipes the attitude right out of his vocabulary. A 27 story high VT7 would do just that I would think.

I can't find a gloating smiley - this one will have to do

To be honest if VT7 does get built I couldn't give a monkey's I would feel sorry for JCC Owners. I would feel sorry for any owners of condos along the beach cause it would just lay the way open to the next, or the same, avericious developer to drop the sh*t on existing "law abiding" developments.

Until this is ALL over my money stays firmly offshore

Anyways win or lose this is going on for a looooong long time cause I don't think for one moment VT will accept the Admin court decision and I KNOW JCC owners are hoping for the best but they WILL fight till the bitter end, and have the funds to do so, even if it takes years and years of appeals.

Given your willingness to always give your two cents in this forum mike, and based upon the nature of your comments, you could perhaps understand why some of us may have thought that owned half of JCC's apartments. Your last post has me wondering why you are so keen to stir things up all the time, but I guess that some people just thrive off it. Personally I am glad that you do not own in either building because, at last, if things have gotten a little personal at times on these posts, the JCC owners and VT7 investors can perhaps be excused on the fact of having something real at stake to get emotional about (loss), not just a possible future maybe investment. Given developments in Thailans more recently, and even the economist has recently graded Thailand as a political high risk country now, maybe your money would be best invested here in say 50 years. How about going for a moniker such as OneMikeinUSA or OneMikeinWesternEurope. Nothing personal against you, just some of your comments, particularly in light of your new revelations that you do not even have an interest in either JCC or VT7.

In actual fact I do have a vested interest in all this huha and gain a not too incosiderate financial gain from this conflict - so there you are, this is not the reason for my willingness to give my two penneth (cents is so american) but certainly a welcome side effect of this whole affair

Well, since you are gaining "not too inconsiderately" FROM this conflict, that may explain why you seem to enjoy stirring it up, and then bask in your own gloating. Best thing I can do is just ignore any rants you may make. Ciao!

Now, onto more positive things, anyone know what happened at the Nov 28th Admin court meeting?

Thanks OneMike

[Tammi]

I agree this Blog Owner is obviously not a full shilling

However one thing he does get over is that the View Talay 7 Project would be a big joke if it was not for the fact that the results of this clearly illegal folly will mean a lot of folks losing a lot of money

I see the offensive articles/posts have been removed from this blog (PattayaJomTienCondos). I see the blog owner Blackpuddin is also named Mike.

The next step? Possibly the Admin Court will dismiss the case based on the fact that VT7 is too close to the sea, even under the 100 meter rule. Then what?

I can't see how a court of law can ignore the law.

[beginner]

The next step? Possibly the Admin Court will dismiss the case based on the fact that VT7 is too close to the sea, even under the 100 meter rule. Then what?

I can't see how a court of law can ignore the law.

Ignore. A court cannot ignore the law. Agreed, however

Interpret. Yes a court can interpret the law especially if it is in any way ambiguous or open to expert technical definition.

[OneMikeInBangkok]

Ignore. A court cannot ignore the law. Agreed, however

Interpret. Yes a court can interpret the law especially if it is in any way ambiguous or open to expert technical definition.

The Admin Court ordered an "Expert Technical Definition"

The experts assigned by the court came from Bangkok and did the survey

The result is 87 Meters

What is ambiguous about that?

Or maybe someone (VT) is going to ask for an expert technical definition on the expert technical definition which was expertly done done by the court ordered experts.

[JaiDeeFarang]

Can anyone tell me the current situation at VT7. I've heard from several people around the town that three measurements were taken by three seperate bodies from Bangkok, Pattaya City and the regional office at Chonburi and that they all agree to within an acceptable level that VT7 is in fact 100% legal, all those who attended the meeting including a bunch of 'reluctant' farangs had to sign off the measurements before they were then given to Rayong. The administartive court will soon be issuing it's findings in the form of a letter confirming this. If anyone out there was at this meeting I would like some clarification on the matter as an investor in VT7.

[JaiDeeFarang]

I also understand that View Talay will be seeking huge damages in the court against the Jomtien Complex and that the main man from the Tesa Baan will also be taking action because of the allegations made against him. To me it looks like it's all crashing down around the ears of the JCC and that is noticable by the recent lack of postings. stopVT7 seems to have vanished and OneMike doesn't seem to have much to say for his usually outspoken smug self.

[aguy30]

Will someone write a summary. There is just too gook to wade through to see what is really happening.

[stevemiddie]

Can anyone tell me the current situation at VT7. I've heard from several people around the town

Of course you have.

that three measurements were taken by three seperate bodies from Bangkok, Pattaya City and the regional office at Chonburi and that they all agree to within an acceptable level that VT7 is in fact 100% legal

Then it must be true if you say so.

, all those who attended the meeting including a bunch of 'reluctant' farangs had to sign off the measurements before they were then given to Rayong. The administartive court will soon be issuing it's findings in the form of a letter confirming this. If anyone out there was at this meeting I would like some clarification on the matter as an investor in VT7.

Edited December 20, 2007 by stevemiddie

[stevemiddie]

I also understand that View Talay will be seeking huge damages in the court against the Jomtien Complex and that the main man from the Tesa Baan will also be taking action because of the allegations made against him.

Wishful thinking.

To me it looks like it's all crashing down around the ears of the JCC

You,re a VT7 investor so you have to live in hope I suppose

and that is noticable by the recent lack of postings. stopVT7 seems to have vanished and OneMike doesn't seem to have much to say for his usually outspoken smug self.

There is no point in continually posting when the point of law has almost been decided in favour of JCC.

I have no interest in JCC or VT&. I live in Pattaya Tai.................but your posts do sound a bit " desperate " to be honest.

Edited December 20, 2007 by stevemiddie

[OneMikeInBangkok]

I also understand that View Talay will be seeking huge damages in the court against the Jomtien Complex and that the main man from the Tesa Baan will also be taking action because of the allegations made against him.

Wishful thinking.

To me it looks like it's all crashing down around the ears of the JCC

You,re a VT7 investor so you have to live in hope I suppose

and that is noticable by the recent lack of postings. stopVT7 seems to have vanished and OneMike doesn't seem to have much to say for his usually outspoken smug self.

There is no point in continually posting when the point of law has almost been decided in favour of JCC.

I have no interest in JCC or VT&. I live in Pattaya Tai.................but your posts do sound a bit " desperate " to be honest.

JaiDee should be JaiYen

[APMann]

I also understand that View Talay will be seeking huge damages in the court against the Jomtien Complex and that the main man from the Tesa Baan will also be taking action because of the allegations made against him. To me it looks like it's all crashing down around the ears of the JCC and that is noticable by the recent lack of postings. stopVT7 seems to have vanished and OneMike doesn't seem to have much to say for his usually outspoken smug self.

How can any farang in this town think it is acceptable or a good thing for a city council to sue people for bringing reasonable and proper legal proceedings against developers? Do we live in Cambodia - where people in power pathetically resort to law all the time in legal actions which embarrass the idiots who launch them more than the original complainants?

It is one of the worst aspects of life in Asian countries, and even though Thaksin did it, it doesn't make it acceptable in Thailand where these officials should have a harder skin and the city council should concentrate money on providing a better service for Pattaya for a change. Spend it on a school or an anti-corruption unit.

If this was a frivolous action that VT7 launched, maybe I would agree with you, but it wasn't. It went all the way to two courts in Bangkok and Rayong, and involved complicated measurements and confusing legal opinions on which directive was correct, so how can some (lost face cry baby) civil servant decide to launch legal proceedings against people who have decided to properly challenge a questionable permit under Thai law and who have tested it all the way. It is questionable because a year later even the Thai courts haven't decided it. If it wasn't a complicated case it wouldn't have taken so long to solve would it?

And can I ask what kind of international publicity do you think ill-conceived court actions of the kinds you suggest - and seem to crow about are in the pipeline - will bring for Pattaya and the administration and property market here.

What do you think it will say to people already scared of Thailand's terrible corruption, abuse of authority, crime, coups, poor real estate laws, dodgy business laws and bad politics and sleazy politicians locally and nationally. Do you think foreigners reading about the abuse of a country's laws against condo owners trying to protect their rights will think it is good to buy real estate in Pattaya? I doubt it. But maybe you don't really care about that side of the Pattaya economy, but I do as it gives jobs to many Thais.

Anyone who stood back would think JC have done everyone a favour.

I bet no developer in this city will ever think he can easily stuff a package under the table for a permit, and people can at least sleep easier in their seafront condo beds from now on, knowing their condos have been properly built and that they won't be woken the next day by the sound of demolition. JC have done Pattaya a favour in my opinion by demonstrating that you can take proceedings in Thai courts and get a fair hearing. What's to be criticised about that?

Have a look at what has happened in Spain recently with illegal building permits.

All this talk of get your own back litigation is pathetic.

[JaiDeeFarang]

I also understand that View Talay will be seeking huge damages in the court against the Jomtien Complex and that the main man from the Tesa Baan will also be taking action because of the allegations made against him. To me it looks like it's all crashing down around the ears of the JCC and that is noticable by the recent lack of postings. stopVT7 seems to have vanished and OneMike doesn't seem to have much to say for his usually outspoken smug self.

How can any farang in this town think it is acceptable or a good thing for a city council to sue people for bringing reasonable and proper legal proceedings against developers? Do we live in Cambodia - where people in power pathetically resort to law all the time in legal actions which embarrass the idiots who launch them more than the original complainants?

It is one of the worst aspects of life in Asian countries, and even though Thaksin did it, it doesn't make it acceptable in Thailand where these officials should have a harder skin and the city council should concentrate money on providing a better service for Pattaya for a change. Spend it on a school or an anti-corruption unit.

If this was a frivolous action that VT7 launched, maybe I would agree with you, but it wasn't. It went all the way to two courts in Bangkok and Rayong, and involved complicated measurements and confusing legal opinions on which directive was correct, so how can some (lost face cry baby) civil servant decide to launch legal proceedings against people who have decided to properly challenge a questionable permit under Thai law and who have tested it all the way. It is questionable because a year later even the Thai courts haven't decided it. If it wasn't a complicated case it wouldn't have taken so long to solve would it?

And can I ask what kind of international publicity do you think ill-conceived court actions of the kinds you suggest - and seem to crow about are in the pipeline - will bring for Pattaya and the administration and property market here.

What do you think it will say to people already scared of Thailand's terrible corruption, abuse of authority, crime, coups, poor real estate laws, dodgy business laws and bad politics and sleazy politicians locally and nationally. Do you think foreigners reading about the abuse of a country's laws against condo owners trying to protect their rights will think it is good to buy real estate in Pattaya? I doubt it. But maybe you don't really care about that side of the Pattaya economy, but I do as it gives jobs to many Thais.

Anyone who stood back would think JC have done everyone a favour.

I bet no developer in this city will ever think he can easily stuff a package under the table for a permit, and people can at least sleep easier in their seafront condo beds from now on, knowing their condos have been properly built and that they won't be woken the next day by the sound of demolition. JC have done Pattaya a favour in my opinion by demonstrating that you can take proceedings in Thai courts and get a fair hearing. What's to be criticised about that?

Have a look at what has happened in Spain recently with illegal building permits.

All this talk of get your own back litigation is pathetic.

It is my understanding that JCC took action against City Hall, not the developer. Why do farangs think they can go around accusing officials of corruption when we are guests in their country? Did they ever stop to think of the repercussions they may face by waking up a sleeping giant, costing the developer untold money and causing embarrassment to officials by telling them how to do their job. I seriously hope that all of the plaintiffs have up to date visas or it will be au revoir I'm afraid. Immigration has strong links with city hall so it wouldn't surprise me if the next time they apply for their retirement visas they're declined. The building permit is not questionable in the slightest, the fact that it has taken so long to decide stems from Thais being not willing to make a decision one way or the other. Though I'm reliably informed that it will go the way of VT7 very shortly.

The people at the JCC didn't launch this campaign to save the image of Thailand, regular visitors to the Kingdom are well aware of how the country is run and military coups here are nothing new. The action was taken because many people feared they would lose their sea views and that their property prices would depreciate. Have you any evidence of a package under the table being given for any building permit? If you have I would strongly suggest you give it to the JCC as they may need it in court.

Can I also ask who do you think you are saying what is and what is not acceptable in an Asian country? Why do you think civil servants should have "tougher skin"? What has it got to do with you the way that local authorities operate? Don't become like the JCC or the Jomtien Condotel and forget your place in Thai society, we are simply guests in their country and considered third rate citizens. Don't think you can go marching into city hall making demands and calling them corrupt and get away with it. Loosing face for a Thai is a mortal sin, as you'll soon seen I expect.

[chanman]

I also understand that View Talay will be seeking huge damages in the court against the Jomtien Complex and that the main man from the Tesa Baan will also be taking action because of the allegations made against him. To me it looks like it's all crashing down around the ears of the JCC and that is noticable by the recent lack of postings. stopVT7 seems to have vanished and OneMike doesn't seem to have much to say for his usually outspoken smug self.

How can any farang in this town think it is acceptable or a good thing for a city council to sue people for bringing reasonable and proper legal proceedings against developers? Do we live in Cambodia - where people in power pathetically resort to law all the time in legal actions which embarrass the idiots who launch them more than the original complainants?

It is one of the worst aspects of life in Asian countries, and even though Thaksin did it, it doesn't make it acceptable in Thailand where these officials should have a harder skin and the city council should concentrate money on providing a better service for Pattaya for a change. Spend it on a school or an anti-corruption unit.

If this was a frivolous action that VT7 launched, maybe I would agree with you, but it wasn't. It went all the way to two courts in Bangkok and Rayong, and involved complicated measurements and confusing legal opinions on which directive was correct, so how can some (lost face cry baby) civil servant decide to launch legal proceedings against people who have decided to properly challenge a questionable permit under Thai law and who have tested it all the way. It is questionable because a year later even the Thai courts haven't decided it. If it wasn't a complicated case it wouldn't have taken so long to solve would it?

And can I ask what kind of international publicity do you think ill-conceived court actions of the kinds you suggest - and seem to crow about are in the pipeline - will bring for Pattaya and the administration and property market here.

What do you think it will say to people already scared of Thailand's terrible corruption, abuse of authority, crime, coups, poor real estate laws, dodgy business laws and bad politics and sleazy politicians locally and nationally. Do you think foreigners reading about the abuse of a country's laws against condo owners trying to protect their rights will think it is good to buy real estate in Pattaya? I doubt it. But maybe you don't really care about that side of the Pattaya economy, but I do as it gives jobs to many Thais.

Anyone who stood back would think JC have done everyone a favour.

I bet no developer in this city will ever think he can easily stuff a package under the table for a permit, and people can at least sleep easier in their seafront condo beds from now on, knowing their condos have been properly built and that they won't be woken the next day by the sound of demolition. JC have done Pattaya a favour in my opinion by demonstrating that you can take proceedings in Thai courts and get a fair hearing. What's to be criticised about that?

Have a look at what has happened in Spain recently with illegal building permits.

All this talk of get your own back litigation is pathetic.

It is my understanding that JCC took action against City Hall, not the developer. Why do farangs think they can go around accusing officials of corruption when we are guests in their country? Did they ever stop to think of the repercussions they may face by waking up a sleeping giant, costing the developer untold money and causing embarrassment to officials by telling them how to do their job. I seriously hope that all of the plaintiffs have up to date visas or it will be au revoir I'm afraid. Immigration has strong links with city hall so it wouldn't surprise me if the next time they apply for their retirement visas they're declined. The building permit is not questionable in the slightest, the fact that it has taken so long to decide stems from Thais being not willing to make a decision one way or the other. Though I'm reliably informed that it will go the way of VT7 very shortly.

The people at the JCC didn't launch this campaign to save the image of Thailand, regular visitors to the Kingdom are well aware of how the country is run and military coups here are nothing new. The action was taken because many people feared they would lose their sea views and that their property prices would depreciate. Have you any evidence of a package under the table being given for any building permit? If you have I would strongly suggest you give it to the JCC as they may need it in court.

Can I also ask who do you think you are saying what is and what is not acceptable in an Asian country? Why do you think civil servants should have "tougher skin"? What has it got to do with you the way that local authorities operate? Don't become like the JCC or the Jomtien Condotel and forget your place in Thai society, we are simply guests in their country and considered third rate citizens. Don't think you can go marching into city hall making demands and calling them corrupt and get away with it. Loosing face for a Thai is a mortal sin, as you'll soon seen I expect.

I am new on the board but have been lurking for a long while.. I just wonder what facts make you think VT7 will get a judgement in their favor when all measurements seem to have been even under the 100m mark?

I know that things are not logical here but would love to know if you are basing in on the fact they are not logical or just on bar roob banter.

I have no interest either way except as a spectator.

[APMann]

It is my understanding that JCC took action against City Hall, not the developer. Why do farangs think they can go around accusing officials of corruption when we are guests in their country? Did they ever stop to think of the repercussions they may face by waking up a sleeping giant, costing the developer untold money and causing embarrassment to officials by telling them how to do their job. I seriously hope that all of the plaintiffs have up to date visas or it will be au revoir I'm afraid. Immigration has strong links with city hall so it wouldn't surprise me if the next time they apply for their retirement visas they're declined. The building permit is not questionable in the slightest, the fact that it has taken so long to decide stems from Thais being not willing to make a decision one way or the other. Though I'm reliably informed that it will go the way of VT7 very shortly.

The people at the JCC didn't launch this campaign to save the image of Thailand, regular visitors to the Kingdom are well aware of how the country is run and military coups here are nothing new. The action was taken because many people feared they would lose their sea views and that their property prices would depreciate. Have you any evidence of a package under the table being given for any building permit? If you have I would strongly suggest you give it to the JCC as they may need it in court.

Can I also ask who do you think you are saying what is and what is not acceptable in an Asian country? Why do you think civil servants should have "tougher skin"? What has it got to do with you the way that local authorities operate? Don't become like the JCC or the Jomtien Condotel and forget your place in Thai society, we are simply guests in their country and considered third rate citizens. Don't think you can go marching into city hall making demands and calling them corrupt and get away with it. Loosing face for a Thai is a mortal sin, as you'll soon seen I expect.

You mention corruption allegations :"why do farangs think they can go around accusing officials of corruption when we are guests in their country". Well, firstly, as in the UK and all over most of the developed (and undeveloped) world, the law usually allows it, but secondly, I thought corruption was not an issue here. I understood VT7 was a civil case about the correct measurements and which legal directive to be applied, not that someone was corrupt. Is that not right? That was why I cannot understand why a civil servant can get so worked up about it. It is an administrative point.

I don't understand you referring to Jomtien Condotel. I know nothing of their action against VT7. Can you pelase clarify that.

I don't think the weakness in Thai culture about losing face and the disproportionate responses it can lead to is something to be proud or praising about either. It should be criticised as having led to nothing but harm for the country.

[Edited to make my reply stand out from the above text]

Edited December 21, 2007 by APMann

[JaiDeeFarang]

Firstly we are in Thailand not the UK or any other country for that matter. Thailand is a proud nationalistic country that has never been colonised, unlike so many other countries around the world. Why do you think you or a group of farangs can tell them what to do and how to do their jobs, when you are just a visitor here. Thailand is Thailand that is why 95% of the farangs living here love it, the other 5% spend their lives complaining and wishing it was "like back home". We love living here because of the relaxed atmosphere and not always enforced laws, unfortunately you can please some of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time. The case was made against city hall for issuing what was claimed to be an illegal building permit, who are these people to make such a claim undermining city halls authority? Is their lawyer egging the JCC on with incorrect legal advise in order to get as much money as possible and sod the consequences to his clients? I refer to Jomtien Condotel because they are in a similar situation with another nearby condominium which I fear to mention by name. Who are you to say that the issue of losing face in Thai culture is a weakness and criticise their often bizarre way of life? It is one of the most polite and hospitable countries I have ever had the pleasure and privilage of living in. I am not praising the loosing face issue, simply pointing out that it has been going on in Thai culture since time began and you or anyone else is not going to change that. I would not like to be on the receiving end of the wrath a high ranking Thai may feel after a group of "tourists" have basically called him incompetent and corrupt, think about it.

[OneMikeInBangkok]

"We love living here because of the relaxed atmosphere and not always enforced laws,"

Exactly JaiDee - spot on - this is what you hope for.

JCC Owners also love to live here - but in this case they are looking for the law to be enforced.