Consumer Warning - roof iron insulation.

[DUNROAMIN]

Hi to all, I am writing this to inform potential buyers of roofing iron with foam insulation (pictures attached) to do your homework before buying this product.

Here's my story.

After purchasing my new house I decided to build a carport for our two cars. I chose the color bond type roofing steel with foam insulation on the recommendation from a freind that it was a good product, as he had it installed on a patio area and was still OK after 5 years. The company I dealt with gave me a two year warranty on the insulation. After about 12 months I noticed the insulation had changed color from silver to a milky color, I didn't think too much of it at that stage as it appeared stable. After another 6 months had lapsed I noticed that some of the material was peeling off and showing signs of shrinking, as well as in some parts the foam was slowly disintegrating, similar to a bio degradable plastic (pics attached). I contacted the seller about this problem and they sent a representative to have a look. The guys that turned up took samples and seemed a bit nervous about the product, indicating something was wrong.

The boss of the company rang the next day and said they were sending the samples collected to the foam manufacturer in Bangkok. After about two weeks the representatives from Bangkok arrived to take a look. Well, here's where the BS started, Quote: This insulation is not for outside?? I asked so where is it meant to be used and why did the local company sell this to me knowing it was for a external carport, quote: It is for inside, I asked inside where, Quote: No answer. Quote: Your roof has not got a high pitch for run off, the water has got in. I said, that's funny I have never a drop of water under this roof since construction. I maid sure that all roof screws where placed correctly and water tight. Also the roof had a 200mm drop from one side to the other over a 5m span. All sheets were overlapped as standard practice.

The foam company reps then went to see the local company where I bought the roof steel, after about 2 hours ,we had a phone call from the boss of the local company to come and see them. 

The outcome from the meeting of the two parties involved, was that I had two choices: 1. They would reimburse me the money for the foam only and, 2. The local roof iron company would replace the old foam for new foam. Removal and installation of the roof iron was at my expense. Well, if you have any knowledge of installing roof iron and then try to replace the same iron on a roof you will understand why I chose not to do that. Instead, I chose to be reimbursed for the foam as it would be easier to line the under sided of the carport so that the foam is sealed and out of sight.

In conclusion, I cannot conceal the name of the local company as I agreed to be reimbursed for the foam, and I was unable to get the name of the company from Bangkok. The local roof iron company did admit that had changed foam companies in the last two years and now are considering changing to another company.

So, the best advice I can give is do your homework before purchasing this product, check with other expats that have used this product and where they purchased it and what was the warranty, like anywhere in the world their are dodgy operators selling inferior products. This faulty product has now cost me almost double the original cost to rectify the problem. I live in the Mukdahan province and If you are thinking about purchasing this product PM me for more info.

Be warned.

 

 

[johng]

That last photo does look a bit like water damage ?..still water shouldn't damage the foam..

I could understand damage from strong sunlight ( UV ) 

or a bad reaction between the foam and the glue used to stick it to the metal sheets.

[DUNROAMIN]

10 minutes ago, johng said:

That last photo does look a bit like water damage ?..still water shouldn't damage the foam..

I could understand damage from strong sunlight ( UV ) 

or a bad reaction between the foam and the glue used to stick it to the metal sheets.

I did mention to them that man made foam can float around in the oceans for hundreds of years, got a blank look. TIT. 

[Farangwithaplan]

Disappointing situation you found yourself in. As you mentioned, lining the underside is probably the best way to seal it all in.

 

Will you run ceiling joists from the supports and then fix the ceiling material to them?

[Denim]

For just a car port I wouldn't bother with any backing at all since its not an area you are going to be sitting under yourself. Still, hindsight is a wonderful thing.

[JimShortz]

I'm sorry to hear you got such a bum deal, but you are far from alone - I have seen that thin insulation literally "dripping" off the underside of roofs at many locations; none of it very old. I fitted some of this on my outside bathroom a year ago (from Lion Steel Chiang Mai) and a year later it is still just fine - long may it continue. I guess I was lucky, I have no idea how to choose a good one!
What I can recommend though is the Bluescope roofing, as per attached photos. This has 25mm of hard bonded foam and a flat underside. It seems to be completely stable, and can be bought with a silver underside or white paintable - up to you. 
I bought this six months ago, in white (most reflective), at the heaviest weight steel available, with 25mm insulation (they also offer 20mm, but why would you!), and foil underside (mine's hidden behind a gypsum ceiling). It cost me just about exactly B100k for 240 square metres (35 lengths of 9.10m, at, if i remember correctly, 76cm width) including fixings and flashing, but not including installation. This was from the main Bluescope supplier/manufacturer in Chiang Mai - much cheaper than the resellers around the city.
I  am super happy with my quiet and well insulated roof. The paintable version would be great for a car port where it would be visible underneath.
 

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, Denim said:

For just a car port I wouldn't bother with any backing at all since its not an area you are going to be sitting under yourself. Still, hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I would disagree. With nothing the underside is going to be radiating heat Into your car at a toasty 60+ degrees (middle of the day with it is going to be 23+ degrees cooler

[Kwasaki]

2 hours ago, DUNROAMIN said:

So, the best advice I can give is do your homework before purchasing this product

Definitely a bad product if roof area is in the direct sunlight all day.

[Denim]

1 hour ago, sometimewoodworker said:

I would disagree. With nothing the underside is going to be radiating heat Into your car at a toasty 60+ degrees (middle of the day with it is going to be 23+ degrees cooler

 

Strange. Must be hotter where you are. Our car is parked under the car port which has metal roof, no backing. The area is well ventilated though. Getting in the car at mid day it doesn't feel that hot and the thermometer on the wall just says 38

( compared to 28 in our living room which as no air con )

Maybe the hot air rises or gets blown away, who knows.

 

Now if when shopping at Big C I have to leave it parked under the sun for 40 minutes ( limited shaded spaces ) , then when I get back to the car it really is toasty !!

[sometimewoodworker]

5 minutes ago, Denim said:

 

Strange. Must be hotter where you are. Our car is parked under the car port which has metal roof, no backing. The area is well ventilated though. Getting in the car at mid day it doesn't feel that hot and the thermometer on the wall just says 38

( compared to 28 in our living room which as no air con )

Maybe the hot air rises or gets blown away, who knows.

 

Now if when shopping at Big C I have to leave it parked under the sun for 40 minutes ( limited shaded spaces ) , then when I get back to the car it really is toasty !!

[Denim]

29 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

 

OK...So I have just laid my wall thermometer flat on the roof of the car for the last 25 minutes. Here is the thermometer reading.

 

 

 

I think your device is reading the surface temperature of the roofing material not the ambient heat.  If it were 60 degrees under the carport you would feel it like a brick wall as soon as you walk under it.

 

If you have a frying pan on a low heat you can tolerably hold your hand half inch above its surface for a while whereas if you press your hand down on the pan you will get burnt.

 

 

Edited October 30, 2019 by Denim

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, Denim said:

 

I think your device is reading the surface temperature of the roofing material not the ambient heat

If you read what I posted you would understand that that was exactly what I said

 

3 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

With nothing the underside is going to be radiating heat Into your car at a toasty 60+ degrees

Radiant heat is not ambient heat 

 

Ambient heat has a very loose relationship to radiated heat. Just stand in the shade of a tree at 7 am on a sunny morning now then step out into the sun.

[DUNROAMIN]

4 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

I would disagree. With nothing the underside is going to be radiating heat Into your car at a toasty 60+ degrees (middle of the day with it is going to be 23+ degrees cooler

Correct, that what I aimed for.

[DUNROAMIN]

6 hours ago, Farangwithaplan said:

Disappointing situation you found yourself in. As you mentioned, lining the underside is probably the best way to seal it all in.

 

Will you run ceiling joists from the supports and then fix the ceiling material to them?

Basically yes to your questions, I have found a light weight material that should do the job.

[Lacessit]

4 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

I would disagree. With nothing the underside is going to be radiating heat Into your car at a toasty 60+ degrees (middle of the day with it is going to be 23+ degrees cooler

Unless the underside is black, very little radiation transfer will be occurring. The main mechanism of heat transfer will be convection. Provided the carport is well ventilated, convection would not be an issue.

Why do you think builders install soffits and roof vents?

[sometimewoodworker]

2 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Unless the underside is black, very little radiation transfer will be occurring. The main mechanism of heat transfer will be convection. Provided the carport is well ventilated, convection would not be an issue.

Why do you think builders install soffits and roof vents?

You clearly do not understand physics if that I what you think.

Just doing a T***p and making BS claims will make you no more correct than the orange idiot.

 

Please find some supporting evidence (you will not because your claim is total tosh) of the low radiation characteristics  of colours other than black

[Lacessit]

I know hindsight is 20:20; however, a two year warranty on insulation to me would be a warning sign. From memory, Bluescope Colorbond roofs have a 25 year warranty. That would be without insulation.

The other possibility is it's a duff batch of plastic or adhesive used to make or attach the insulation.

[sometimewoodworker]

2 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

From memory, Bluescope Colorbond roofs have a 25 year warranty.

Colorbond is 30 years, BLUESCOPE Zacs® 150 steel is 12 years and it’s 10 years forBLUESCOPE Zacs® 90 steel

[Lacessit]

6 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

You clearly do not understand physics if that I what you think.

Just doing a T***p and making BS claims will make you no more correct than the orange idiot.

 

Please find some supporting evidence (you will not because your claim is total tosh) of the low radiation characteristics  of colours other than black

As it happens, I have tertiary qualifications in chemistry and physics. You obviously do not. The Stefan-Boltzmann Law is formulated on black bodies as the most perfect radiators of heat.

There are three mechanisms of heat transfer - radiation, conduction and convection.

To illustrate this, park your car in the direct sun with the windows closed. The car surface heats up via the sun's RADIATION. The interior air of the car heats up via CONVECTION. And when you sit on the unshaded seat, you burn your butt through CONDUCTION.

Now park the car in the shade, and leave the windows open. The heat transfer mechanisms of radiation and and convection have been removed, so the car will be close to ambient temperature.

In my 50 year career as a scientist, I saw many people who used measuring instruments inappropriately, and draw incorrect conclusions from them. You are just another one of them.

 

[Lacessit]

26 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Colorbond is 30 years, BLUESCOPE Zacs® 150 steel is 12 years and it’s 10 years forBLUESCOPE Zacs® 90 steel

It's 11 years since I last worked for Bluescope, so please excuse my fading memory. The Zacs product I am not familiar with, may be after my time there.

[sometimewoodworker]

27 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

As it happens, I have tertiary qualifications in chemistry and physics. You obviously do not. The Stefan-Boltzmann Law is formulated on black bodies as the most perfect radiators of heat.

There are three mechanisms of heat transfer - radiation, conduction and convection.

To illustrate this, park your car in the direct sun with the windows closed. The car surface heats up via the  RADIATION. The interior air of the car heats up via CONVECTION. And when you sit on the unshaded seat, you burn your butt through CONDUCTION.

Now park the car in the shade, and leave the windows open. The heat transfer mechanisms of radiation and and convection have been removed, so the car will be close to ambient temperature.

In my 50 year career as a scientist, I saw many people who used measuring instruments inappropriately, and draw incorrect conclusions from them. You are just another one of them.

 

Claiming or stating your work history and Experience does not prove your point.
 

Stating that a black body is an excellent radiator of heat (a fact that I haven’t disputed) does not make your point.

 

Bringing in convection and conduction a methods of heat transfer certainly does not make your point.

you said, please address your incorrect statement. 

Quote

Unless the underside is black, very little radiation transfer will be occurring.

Edited October 30, 2019 by sometimewoodworker

[Thian]

So what's the best roofing material for a stainless steel carport these days? We sure want something with insulation this time...

[sometimewoodworker]

10 minutes ago, Thian said:

So what's the best roofing material for a stainless steel carport these days? We sure want something with insulation this time...

White roofing materials reflect most heat of the available colours

 

Spray PU with a silver surface on the underside radiates least 

 

something like this is good to excellent.

Edited October 30, 2019 by sometimewoodworker

[Denim]

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

Unless the underside is black, very little radiation transfer will be occurring. The main mechanism of heat transfer will be convection. Provided the carport is well ventilated, convection would not be an issue.

Why do you think builders install soffits and roof vents?

 

Exactly. 

[Lacessit]

6 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Claiming or stating your work history and Experience does not prove your point.
 

Stating that a black body is an excellent radiator of heat (a fact that I haven’t disputed) does not make your point.

 

Bringing in convection and conduction a methods of heat transfer certainly does not make your point.

you said, please address your incorrect statement. 

You keep trying to deflect from the fact you are wrong. You've used a temperature gauge to read the temperature of a roof surface isolated from a vehicle by several feet of roof space, then concluded the car will heat up to 60 C from that reading. Another poster has already disproved your conclusion with a temperature reading from the surface of the roof of his car.

If you like, I'll take a photo of the carport here tomorrow morning, with our car parked underneath. Grey cement tile underside, no insulation. The car is at ambient temperature all day, and would never get within a bulls' roar of your flawed temperature prediction. Right now, I don't have time to waste on your BS. I have other things to do.

[Thian]

34 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

White roofing materials reflect most heat of the available colours

 

Spray PU with a silver surface on the underside radiates least 

 

something like this is good to excellent.

That looks good, but the carport is curved, can they bend this material? And do you have a brandname or shop where to buy it?

[Thian]

24 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

You keep trying to deflect from the fact you are wrong. You've used a temperature gauge to read the temperature of a roof surface isolated from a vehicle by several feet of roof space, then concluded the car will heat up to 60 C from that reading. Another poster has already disproved your conclusion with a temperature reading from the surface of the roof of his car.

If you like, I'll take a photo of the carport here tomorrow morning, with our car parked underneath. Grey cement tile underside, no insulation. The car is at ambient temperature all day, and would never get within a bulls' roar of your flawed temperature prediction. Right now, I don't have time to waste on your BS. I have other things to do.

Yes post a pic please....

 

We have plastic roof now...double plastic sheets in black/dark color...it gets very hot underneath but lucky they are getting holes now after 9 years so we need a new roof.

[sometimewoodworker]

32 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

You keep trying to deflect from the fact you are wrong.

Not at all. You refuse to prove that your statement that unless the underside is black very little radiation transfer will be occurring.

 

you can not prove that because you are wrong,

 

You may have covered the emissivity of surfaces when studying physics but if you did you have forgotten the information and cannot admit the point that you made an incorrect claim.
 

There are enough reputable sources available. 

46 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

The car is at ambient temperature all day, and would never get within a bulls' roar of your flawed temperature prediction.

You really should learn to read the post. I have made no temperature prediction of your car 

 

please point it out, oh you can’t!

[sometimewoodworker]

31 minutes ago, Thian said:

That looks good, but the carport is curved, can they bend this material? And do you have a brandname or shop where to buy it?

The company is in Khon Kaen I talked to them at an architectural show there, maybe a year or two ago. So if you are within about 100km of KK I will look up the information when I get back home and can send it by PM 

[Denim]

3 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

If you read what I posted you would understand that that was exactly what I said

 

Radiant heat is not ambient heat 

 

Ambient heat has a very loose relationship to radiated heat. Just stand in the shade of a tree at 7 am on a sunny morning now then step out into the sun.

 

Ah....so now I see we are in agreement.

 

' Radiant heat is not ambient heat '

 

So therefore , as I said in my first post , for just a car port , backing under the roof does not make a significant difference to the well being of the car parked under it.

 

If , however , that area is sometimes used to sit under then the difference might be worth it to some people but frankly I would say not worth the money since a slight breeze negates any small difference.

 

As an aside , I would say civility and manners are not amiss when discussing the merits of various building options. No need to feel affronted just because others have a different way of looking at things.