Eco Farm

[salkhi]

hello, am hoping that I can get some much needed advice..

ok,a brief intro......

I've got a 30 rai rice farm in Uthai Thani (rented to locals at the moment) and I'm in the UK to register as a charity as I plan to create an eco friendly farm for disabled/disadvantaged children.

The project will be centered around equine therapy (basic horse riding and care).

My first enquiry is about turning the rice fields into grazing land for horses, what are the first steps, is it simply a case of ploughing the entire area, topsoiling, rolling and seeding?

What is the best grass to use?

What are the costs involved?

We also have decided to build using straw bales and mud plaster, has this ever been tried in Thailand? Is the straw baled in 16"tall, 18"wide and 36"long bales?

Is there anyone there with straw bale/eco building experience?

oohh, one more....about planning permission..is it enough to just approach the phuu Yai of the village, or would this kind of project need to be submitted to a higher body?

Am sorry about the barrage of questions, but am here in the uk and need all this info for the charity application...

Thank you for your time,

salkhi

[brahmburgers]

Sounds like a good idea - overall.

I've never seen bales of straw here in northern Thailand, where I reside - or bales of any type. People just bundle straw together in sheaves, about the size of an oversized broom. I have a Thai friend who speaks English who is very keen on straw bale and alternative types of construction. He's a licensed tour guide and a builder: Kun Nui tel.0897004370

I have a 12 rai rural hill that I've had plans to develop in a similar vein as what you mentioned: An Eco-center for schoolkids to come and visit. Because it has great tall rock formations, I'd also like to have some rock climbing and a ropes course. I don't think there's a ropes course anywhere in Thailand at present.

An add-on would be a series of murals that depict the terrain as seen through a time machine: 100 years ago / 10,000 years ago / 50,000,000 years ago / etc. ...and possibly 100 years in the future. In order to give a perspective on how drastically people change the landscape and the balance of flora and fauna. As it is, Thai people generally take all development in stride, as if it's all meant to happen, and there's nothing anyone can do to stem the 'progress' of endlessly more urbanization. I could go on for 1,000 pages, but I'll let my rant rest for now.

[chownah]

I have associated with people who owned horses but have never owned one myself so I may be off the mark but I think that you need a fairly dry pasture with firm soil...don't horses get hoof rot if they stand in the wet all day?.....well rice fields get flooded every year and depending on the layout it may not be possible to keep your pasture dry during the rainy season. If you are really serious about this it might be possible to keep it dry by constructing a subdrain....this would mean digging trenches...possibly 1 metre deep and placing drain pipe and then backfilling....you might have to install a sump and pump the water out as it accumulates....depending on the lay of the land and its surroundings....on the other hand it might be possible to simply rechannel the surface flow and keep at least part of your pasture dry....but I would be surprised if it was that simple.

What kind of grass you would grow depends entirely on the type of soil you have and how wet the soil gets in the wet season and how dry it gets in the dry season....and of course on whatever is appropriate for the horse(s)....also I've never seen hay here, only straw...rice straw...which is better quality than wheat straw but still I'm not sure how a horse would do with rice straw....there are horses (mostly ponies really) in Thailand but I've never seen how they care for them......oh....by the way you had better have a good irrigation system to keep stuff green in the dry season.

As to having permission for the endeavor....probably lots of permission...you'll probably have to start an official school or start an official therapy business or something like that since foreigners wanting to create any kind of enterprise in Thailand have to jump several furlong of hurdles.

By the way....up here in the north people say that if you keep a horse in a garden then the leeches will leave....anyone know if this is true?

Chownah

Edited March 27, 2007 by chownah

[Khonwan]

Hi salkhi

Straw bales are indeed 18" x 16" but the length may vary. I baled my own at 36" long (easier for stacking, being twice 18"). I've often thought about using them to construct a building, having read a fair bit of info from others already doing so in the USA.

Ruzi grass ("Ya Lucy", as the Thais around my way pronounce it) would do well on your land - sow with seeds at 3kg per rai for around 60-120 baht per kg (at least, it was).

Ya Khoan (my transliteration - don't know the English name) would probably be my choice. Find someone who has some (it grows naturally in wet grassland areas everywhere); cut it by hand in lengths of 10" (you should get it free); scatter it on the land and plough it in with a 7-disk harrower. To improve the cultivation, you can first place it in a bit of a pile (not too deep), cover it with rice sacks, and water for a couple of days to encourage root growth, then scatter as before on the land before ploughing it in.

These grasses are great for cattle (provide around 12% protein). I only assume they would also be suitable for horses. You'll have to wait about 3 months after planting before allowing livestock to graze. Plant June / July for best results.

Rgds

Khonwan

Edited March 27, 2007 by Khonwan

[bina]

what's good for cattle is not good for horses. in general, i really really hope u know how to deal with horses since therapy horses cost a fortune. i know, we have some in israel near my petting zoo and have checked out the idea several times. given that i have ideal conditions and experience but gave up on the idea, with the questions u are asking, u are a real beginner and if u are not, then my apologies but horses are not hardy and need much more care, even if they are from the hardier breeds.

your best bet wont be grazing but hay feeding with grain additions and pasture as an extra. u also need good land for menage work since u are working with handicapped children. fencing, protection against horse thieves (is there a problem with that in thailand? ), drainage, mosquito control, the list is really endless for one thread. parasites were a huge problem for the goat growers that emailed me from thailand, and we never really came up with a solution except for ivomac. (horses get in orally) and i suspect horses will also fall in that catagory. (colic due to food problems and worms; hoof rot/laminitis; regualr vet work was a big problem for some of the cattle/milk cow/goat farmers on forum, not sure how thai vets are with horses but when a horse is ill or injured, u need an expert, not a basic vet). not to dampen your ideas i love the idea \and if my husband and i had money we would do something like that in far distant future. however...

i will give url for some eco sites since i checked them out for veggie ideas ...

http://www.newfarm.org/columns/Jason/2003/...thai_asok.shtml

http://www.whisperingseed.org/english/pclink.html

http://tribes.tribe.net/baanthai

http://www.punpunthailand.org/

as for building mud houses, the woman down the road from us specializes in that stuff and did seminars in india....we have some farms like that in israel in the negev. i have to tell u, it isnt easy. they used camel dung mixed with straw and mud but israel is dry and the houses worked out ok. dont know if they have a website or not; will also try tal bashan as she is an expert in this. our kids did a week with her building houses in this method. not sure with tropical rains how this works out though.

u might want to join some eco farm forums for basic info: thru the asoke page ( really into organic farming permaculture stuff). also, check out american sites for homesteading. u can get really good info there, and then start one by one to find the info for thailand.

i really suggest u do a lot of homework first; btw, land quality affects your hay which affects your horses, etc.

hope u managed to plow thru all my thread....pick out the good ideas from the bad

bina

israel

Edited March 27, 2007 by bina

[RamdomChances]

Hi Salki, nice to see you posting we've already exchanges Pm on some of this stuff.

Here's some straw house "stuff" they can be done quite nice

thestrawhouse

THE STRAW BALE BUILDING ASSOCIATION

Solar Haven

Ya Khoan (my transliteration - don't know the English name) would probably be my choice. Find someone who has some (it grows naturally in wet grassland areas everywhere); cut it by hand in lengths of 10" (you should get it free); scatter it on the land and plough it in with a 7-disk harrower. To improve the cultivation, you can first place it in a bit of a pile (not too deep), cover it with rice sacks, and water for a couple of days to encourage root growth, then scatter as before on the land before ploughing it in.

That sounds very much like Pangular (SP) Grass,except for the growing wild bit. It likes the wet, does'nt seed so you have to plant it the same way it's great if you can grow it, you won't go far wrong with Ruzi either.

Your probaly going to be better off with a cut and carry system rather than grazing the horses as has been mentioned during wet season you could have problems with the hoofs. How many are you thinking of keeping ?

I had'nt thought about the medical aspects but Bina's right, you'd need to do regular anti parasite jabs/pills or whatever. Have you thought about where your going to get stock from ? Chok Chai farm keeps many horses and they would probaly sell some (as they do cattle) but would be expensive.

[Gerontion]

Pun Pun (website above somewhere) do a VCD on making adobe houses and also run courses on it. There are details on their website and have a look at www.baandin.com and www.baandin.org (these two are Thai language). There’s also a thread on <URL Automatically Removed> about straw houses with a contributor who seems to know his stuff. I don't know much about straw bale houses in Thailand but judging by what I've found on the net, building with adobe doesn't seem to be that much of a problem in Thailand (at least I hope not - it's what I plan to do next year).

Edited March 29, 2007 by RamdomChances

[salkhi]

what's good for cattle is not good for horses. in general, i really really hope u know how to deal with horses since therapy horses cost a fortune. i know, we have some in israel near my petting zoo and have checked out the idea several times. given that i have ideal conditions and experience but gave up on the idea, with the questions u are asking, u are a real beginner and if u are not, then my apologies but horses are not hardy and need much more care, even if they are from the hardier breeds.

your best bet wont be grazing but hay feeding with grain additions and pasture as an extra. u also need good land for menage work since u are working with handicapped children. fencing, protection against horse thieves (is there a problem with that in thailand? ), drainage, mosquito control, the list is really endless for one thread. parasites were a huge problem for the goat growers that emailed me from thailand, and we never really came up with a solution except for ivomac. (horses get in orally) and i suspect horses will also fall in that catagory. (colic due to food problems and worms; hoof rot/laminitis; regualr vet work was a big problem for some of the cattle/milk cow/goat farmers on forum, not sure how thai vets are with horses but when a horse is ill or injured, u need an expert, not a basic vet). not to dampen your ideas i love the idea \and if my husband and i had money we would do something like that in far distant future. however...

i will give url for some eco sites since i checked them out for veggie ideas ...

http://www.newfarm.org/columns/Jason/2003/...thai_asok.shtml

http://www.whisperingseed.org/english/pclink.html

http://tribes.tribe.net/baanthai

http://www.punpunthailand.org/

as for building mud houses, the woman down the road from us specializes in that stuff and did seminars in india....we have some farms like that in israel in the negev. i have to tell u, it isnt easy. they used camel dung mixed with straw and mud but israel is dry and the houses worked out ok. dont know if they have a website or not; will also try tal bashan as she is an expert in this. our kids did a week with her building houses in this method. not sure with tropical rains how this works out though.

u might want to join some eco farm forums for basic info: thru the asoke page ( really into organic farming permaculture stuff). also, check out american sites for homesteading. u can get really good info there, and then start one by one to find the info for thailand.

i really suggest u do a lot of homework first; btw, land quality affects your hay which affects your horses, etc.

hope u managed to plow thru all my thread....pick out the good ideas from the bad

bina

israel

Cheers for all your info...great links, fortunately I teach riding for the disabled here in the uk, so have lots of experience, unfortunately I know very little about rice farms and available

grasses in thailand! However, I'm just at the beggining stages of info gathering so all your advice is greatly appreciated. As I mentioned, turning the land into suitable grazing (and to produce hay)is one of my main concerns....

I hope to stay in contact and continue receiving info,

thanks again and good luck with your petting zoo

salkhi

[Nawtilus]

What is good for cattle is in fact sure normally good for horses....In my experience, I have never seen a paddock fenced off, one section for dem cows and another for dem horses.

Horses can not only survive, but thrive on good pastures and pastures alone.

Horse can also do ok on arid country and foriage amongst exactly what the cattle eat.

However, if you want to make the horses work and I believe that while working with disabled kids is work...it is not strenuating work and should require little extra feed.....that is if you have ok to good pastures. So extra feeding will simply depend on what you grow and how big it is. Remember hard hooved animals are hard on pastures, so if you only have a small area, a few acres for example, it will show wear and tear quickly.

Also depending on how many horses you have, it may be simply better to just feed them supplementary, but I think this would cost a reasonable amount here in Los.

Now, you do not and it is true as mentioned before, dont keep them in constant wet paddocks, even damp. I would think in Los you will have consideable expense to convert your rice farm to grazing land, you will need some good top soil for the upper level, while the sub level can be the fill generally used around, but not the stinking black sludge delivered to my place one day last year.

Unless it is not possible, I would look to sell the rice land and find a better block suitable for what you want....that is if it is typical rice land and floods, some actually use irrigation to flood their land and it is held in place by the banks etc....maybe yours does not naturally flood and would drain quickly if the levy banks were not there.

As for hay....i just came back from Kanchanaburi and saw haysheds full of hay....I thought it was hay, but then someone mentioned never seeing hay here and it was straw...could have been I guess.

Anyway, I saw an article sometime ago about some hippies building a hay/straw bale house here in Los, so has been done, but I cannot remember where it was.

[Issangeorge]

It might be a good idea to sell the rice land and buy more suitable grazing land. In my area rice land sells for more than grazing land so you could buy a larger amount of grazing land if this is true in your area. Issangeorge.

[ozzydom]

Hi salkhi

Straw bales are indeed 18" x 16" but the length may vary. I baled my own at 36" long (easier for stacking, being twice 18"). I've often thought about using them to construct a building, having read a fair bit of info from others already doing so in the USA.

Ruzi grass ("Ya Lucy", as the Thais around my way pronounce it) would do well on your land - sow with seeds at 3kg per rai for around 60-120 baht per kg (at least, it was).

Ya Khoan (my transliteration - don't know the English name) would probably be my choice. Find someone who has some (it grows naturally in wet grassland areas everywhere); cut it by hand in lengths of 10" (you should get it free); scatter it on the land and plough it in with a 7-disk harrower. To improve the cultivation, you can first place it in a bit of a pile (not too deep), cover it with rice sacks, and water for a couple of days to encourage root growth, then scatter as before on the land before ploughing it in.

These grasses are great for cattle (provide around 12% protein). I only assume they would also be suitable for horses. You'll have to wait about 3 months after planting before allowing livestock to graze. Plant June / July for best results.

Rgds

Khonwan

Ya Khoan is available from Agricultural Dept( FOC ) to convert rice land to pasture, Ruzzi Grass is regarded as an annual here in Issan,it dies back late in the year but self seeds and spouts after xmas with irrigation or the first rain,as khonwan states ,it is regarded as a cut and carry crop here, same with guinea grass which grows more upright (and sells for 50 baht a kg in Sakhon Nakhon,)

wouldnt it be lovely to have some sub clover,white or red clover and perrenial rye grass here.

[bina]

nawtilus

i want to point out something:

any grazing animal will survive on forage... even in arid country (my country for instance) however, even here, any animal that is worth it to u as a working animal for milk, meat or riding (handicapped children riding is hard work for the horse also, not just a spin in a small circle) needs good hay, NOT STRAW, and/or additional grain/pellets etc. good pasture is counted as amount of wet feed (grass hay, wild pasture etc) per acre (or dunam or rai) per body weight of animal. the less forage per acre for a large animal the more land u need. and good pasture is based on what is in the soil.

any animal survives but the amount of meat, milk, or work is reduced if just foraging.

your thoughts are what accounts for many small home farmers here where i live to fail when it comes calving/kidding/foaling time; or when an animal is slightly off its feed. an undernourished animal fails rapidly... and u lose stock. so instead of saving money on feed/hay bales etc, u lose a valuable animal and/or pay vet bills which could have been avoided by a good feed/worming program.

yesterday my vet just added grain to our jenny donkey's menu as she foaled two nights ago, and to him, she seemed slightly underweight, and these are zoo donkeys, well looked after, with small pasture and constant access to oat hay, not foraging out in the dessert, beduin owned, thin, mal nourished donkeys.

in thailand to, that is the difference between a well built and muscled cow/buffalo and a just surviving on whatever there is to eat cow/buffalo.

bina

israel

[bina]

wanted to add,

showed the mud house site in thai to my husband; he wants to know if anyone found anything on ratios and mixes (in thai)... it interestes him (not for ecco reasons, just cause he is interested in things in general)

we arent interested in the hay bale type of building but the mud/daub style... several of us here on the kibbutz are actually checking this out in the next few weeks (after holidays) so will get back if any good info... but would like more info IN THAI about ecco farming etc for hubby to read up on...

bina

[Nawtilus]

Bina...I was not in any way recommending he rely on foriage on an arid pasture....I mentioned this only in response to whoever said horses will not do well on the same foriage of cattle...poppycock.

As for disabled riding being hard on the animals.....please....kids being led around on a horse strenuous ??

I rode horses around outback australia, horses that lived in the paddocks the cows did on relatively poor pastures...I also rode showjumping and eventing...I also rode racehorses for trackwork....I also broke in horses...now while a fit and energy bursting event horse needs are different to the outback stock horse, neither would have required an ounce of supplemental feeding if all they had to do was carry a disabled 10yo around a sand filled yard for 30 minutes maybe twice a day.

[bina]

dont know about u but the horses i know that work with handicapped kids are doing more strenouos stuff then walking around a paddock twice a day; but the OP is the one to comment on the amount of work and needs of his horses

at any rate, with animal husbandry, every person has his /her favorit way; even vets (i have three! one infrequenltly used avian specialist, one large/small ruminants and one horses/donkeys/alpacas) have differing treatments for the same ailment in the same type of animal so u have to choose what u think works best; if u dont like the results, then ask around, try something different.

also, as u probably know, different breeds of hosrses, like cattle and goats, have differing needs as to water/forage shelter... our local arab mixes survive on things that a good cattle working quarter horse doesnt tolerate, etc.

i actually was curious if there are donkeys in issaan area... i like them, they are hardworking, tough and tolerate hard conditions, and pleasant once u get used to working with them. didnt see any or hear of any from anyone, even my husband cant recall seeing donkeys around.

bina

[chownah]

Salkhi,

I find it unusual that someone who wants to build mud and straw houses (I imagine this is for environmental concerns) is also interested in horses (since horses are usually considered to be very hard on the environment in that they trample more pasture than they eat (or so I've heard) and they require a large area to maintain an animal which has only recreational benefit and contributes really nothing to the food chain). I'm wondering what your thoughts are on this.

No flame intended, just interested,

Chownah

[Maizefarmer]

hello, am hoping that I can get some much needed advice..

ok,a brief intro......

I've got a 30 rai rice farm in Uthai Thani (rented to locals at the moment) and I'm in the UK to register as a charity as I plan to create an eco friendly farm for disabled/disadvantaged children.

The project will be centered around equine therapy (basic horse riding and care).

My first enquiry is about turning the rice fields into grazing land for horses, what are the first steps, is it simply a case of ploughing the entire area, topsoiling, rolling and seeding?

What is the best grass to use?

What are the costs involved?

We also have decided to build using straw bales and mud plaster, has this ever been tried in Thailand? Is the straw baled in 16"tall, 18"wide and 36"long bales?

Is there anyone there with straw bale/eco building experience?

oohh, one more....about planning permission..is it enough to just approach the phuu Yai of the village, or would this kind of project need to be submitted to a higher body?

Am sorry about the barrage of questions, but am here in the uk and need all this info for the charity application...

Thank you for your time,

salkhi

Salhki

I appluad your kind hearted gesture and I wish you well - now some advice:

Reality check: I would think hard before filling in rice land to create grazing pastures. All sorts of issues, not least of which will be cost - even by Thai standards I think you'll find it's going to rack up some Baht. But you will, I'm sure Have factored this all into the financial equation - so disregard above if thats the case. Point I make is this - Issangeorge raises a valid option i.e. it may be better to ditch the rice land in favour of more sutiable land which is higher up (or raised). You are going to have to fill the rice paddies a good 20" - 24" above surrounding land level to ensure it doesn't water log during the rainy season and destroy your hard work and charitable intentions.

Secondly - touch base with a Northern Thai project called GENISIS (The Genisis Project)

www.projectgenesis.com

The guys who run this project have a lot of practical knowledge about getting the sort of project you desire to create in Thailand up and running, and while I don;t think they'll give you much info on managing horses, they'll certainly be willing to share with you all sorts of practical advise about how to deal with the never ending petty beurocracy foreigners have to deal with. Be ready for that - it can be frustrating.

I wish you all the best - get back to me closer to the time (have an old 21hp Kubota you can have - no good for the road, no body work, no lights ect ect .. but the hydraulics work the wheels turn, its relaible and will make a good general utiltity machine )

MF